Freeza wrote:I still have no idea why people thought he ought to be some kind of 3D mastermind. He’s just an unstoppable force archetype

People read too much into GRRM's hype about subverting expectations (nevermind the show hasn't done that for 3 years) and having everyone be a shade of grey character (nevermind things have gotten an awfully lot more black and white lately) that they expected the NK to go that route.

It still might in the books, but in the show it was rather obvious they weren't going to go there. Even if they wanted to, there was no way to do it justice with just 6 episodes this season.

I think the source material thing has just become a blanket statement to use for why they don't like anything without making a deeper criticism.

Whenever bookreaders don't like something they say "that's not what GRRM would've done" despite D&D confirming they've been informed about said plot points by GRRM himself.

Reminds me so much of Star Wars fandom after TFA and TLJ who complained about various plotpoints, and said George Lucas would never do that, despite Lucas having written stuff like it, and also has had story inputs in said movies.

El Gunner wrote:

Freeza wrote:

El Gunner wrote:

If they relate it to humanity's search for ruling over others is foolish or for any other logical reason, then yea, why not.

Killing them all would've shown that even if humans strive towards a more just and rightful way to govern and treat each other, then it wouldn't matter, because we'll fail either way.

By having them beat the NK and win against Cersei and show how to be more humane, they'll achieve what you seek.

I think killing everyone would lazy and wouldn't make sense from any kind of storytelling sense.

But staying on this topic, how do we know how Dany and Jon's reign will go? Will it truly be better than what has gone down in Westeros for the past centuries? Obviously we won't be shown that because the show is ending, but logically thinking in every civilisation and ruling there will always be a minority that are cast aside and mistreated, hence the fuck political power angle would have made sense imo.

Also @Kaladin makes a fair point, he is just being too extreme with it. In previous seasons many of us have complained about how loose the overall storytelling has become. To me, and I was under the impression a lot of you as well, it became clear that the source material held a lot of the storytelling firm and together.

Have you actually read the books? Even in season 1 which was the most faithful to the books, you have 1 scene fully adapted from the books to 3 original ones written by D&D. GRRM, the author himself has praised the showrunners for the way they have adapted his books.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Freeza wrote:I still have no idea why people thought he ought to be some kind of 3D mastermind. He’s just an unstoppable force archetype

People read too much into GRRM's hype about subverting expectations (nevermind the show hasn't done that for 3 years) and having everyone be a shade of grey character (nevermind things have gotten an awfully lot more black and white lately) that they expected the NK to go that route.

It still might in the books, but in the show it was rather obvious they weren't going to go there. Even if they wanted to, there was no way to do it justice with just 6 episodes this season.

I'm still not sure when they've really subverted expectations that much.

Ned? Sure. Since then? Not a single really huge main character has been killed.

There's hardly been anything out of the ordinary since Ned's death, because by then it was made clear who the true main characters were in the grand scheme of things. Jon Snow mainly.

Um the red wedding? Joffrey being killed at the height of his power?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Um the red wedding? Joffrey being killed at the height of his power?

Joffrey being killed didn't come as a surprise did it? Mainly because it was widely spoiled.

Also a villain. I meant main characters as in protagonists.

I consider those to be Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Arya and to a slightly lesser extent Sansa and Robb.

The "source material" critique is entirely valid. It's a very noticeable drop when they start deviating more from the books (season 5 onwards, season 4 was true to the books). The characters start making moves that make no sense (Sansa marrying Ramsay for instance, or Myrcella being killed by Dorne and no consequences following that) and have entire episodes that are not consistent in-world (Beyond the wall). Not that the earlier seasons were these perfect moments of TV but at least they were somewhat consistent. And not that the later seasons don't have a lot of great moments too.

It’s not a valid complaint when discussing plot lines that are yet to be resolved in the books because they’re yet to be published. Until then it’s nothing but a lazy bad faith argument imo.

It might turn out true, but using it as a knock against the show when there is no comparison isn’t a valid criticism.

If there’s changes from book to screen it’s a fully fair criticism. That said, I’ve never once heard fans of any book series be positive towards entire works based on “their” books.

urbaNRoots wrote:Yeah I think too many people here read /r/asoiaf which is full of snobby / bitter book readers who love to nitpick every small detail in the show but love everything about the books.

Uhh, pretty big assumption there Urban. Only time I ever use reddit is for tips on Final Fantasy Brave Exvius Japanese Server and I only read that books after season 7. I've been been watching the anime long before I touched the manga tbh.

Also, @Freeza, well, we have 3 more episodes to see if said statement still stands.

Freeza wrote:It’s not a valid complaint when discussing plot lines that are yet to be resolved in the books because they’re yet to be published. Until then it’s nothing but a lazy bad faith argument imo.

It might turn out true, but using it as a knock against the show when there is no comparison isn’t a valid criticism.

If there’s changes from book to screen it’s a fully fair criticism. That said, I’ve never once heard fans of any book series be positive towards entire works based on “their” books.

There is quite the double standard when it comes to these open plotlines that never, or may never, get a resolution in the show vs the books.

The books are filled with unexplained things that just throw the whole situation off and are attributed to curses, magic or mysteries.

I'd like to see the responses here if D&D wrote Tyrion's rhoyne trip where whatever the hell happened with the bridge of dreams and the stonemen comes down to teleporting, or inexplicable currents. Followed by Tyrion's plot armor with the greyscale.

I just rewatched the episode. Underwhelming when you know what this show is capable of. Last night on the first viewing I was too hyped for proper assessment but I agree with M69, Firenze, Doc, ES, RG etc. There are so many things wrong with this episode. And they are very glaring so they can't really be ignored and just swatted aside like they aren't a big deal.

Positives: Ramin Djawadi with probably his best work The score was breathtaking. CGI was great. Cinematography was great. Amazing visuals overalls (although it was way too dark for some scenes). Theon's death, Jorah's death, and Lyanna's death. Melisandre arc.

The episode had an air of eipcness about it. Not sure if it's the WW hype finally coming to an end or the sense of dread. For me, Ramin's score was the huge reason for the epiness feel.  

Negatives: Everything else.

Terrible war tactics from a group that includes experienced military leaders like Jaime, Tyrion, Ser Jorah, Greyworm, Ser Davos, Jon Snow. That was some of the worst castle defense tactics ever. The Dothraki charge specifically got a huge roar of laughter and facepalms in the party I was watching.

Plot Armor. How the fuck do most of these people survive that. Honestly, this was the chance to get rid of a lot of these minor characters. I love them all but there's really no point in a lot of them surviving this. They are just gonna take screen time in the next few episodes and have unsatisfying endings to their storylines if it all finishes lived happily forever after.

White Walker storyline ending like this is probably the biggest feeling of blueballs ever. 8 seasons they've been building up this dread upon humanity and this is how they end it leaving fucking Euron Greyjoy and Cersei as the final big boss. Totally agree with M69 on all of his points here. We didn't get any proper explanation about NK motivations. The excuse that they gave about killing Bran because he's world's memory was pure garbage. I'm 100% certain the books will rectify this part. There's no way GRRM is gonna fucking give us this bs.

I hate how they killed the Night King. I love that Arya was the one to do it. That part is perfect. But the way she did was so fucking stupid. There's no way she sneaks up on the fucking Night King like that when he's got his whole fucking army surrounding him. Why couldn't they just fucking have her change her face to the face of a wight (even better if she killed a WW and took one of their faces) and sneak up like that at least that would of made it more plausible.

One other minor detail in this scene that wasn't well executed was the knife flip. When she did against Brienne it looked so fucking cool. I don't know why they had to show it slow motion. Look at this fucking beauty of a knife flip vs the one against the NK.



Bran warging into fucking ravens. This whole time I was so hyped to see him warg into a dragon. Fucking disappointment to the nth degree cannot be overstated.  


Overall, of course I enjoyed it because it's GoT, and how can you not enjoy the epicness of the whole episode and the feelings that you feel throughout. But in the grand scheme of the the GoT cannon this was an average episode.

I hate this. Anyone who does not like what the show did is a book snob, reads r/asoiaf, is nitpicking etc. There is always something that explains why we are in the wrong. Can't just genuinely dislike something. We are always supposed to accept whatever D&D writes because the show being popular and successful shows that they are geniuses who cannot be criticized.

M99 wrote:I hate this. Anyone who does not like what the show did is a book snob, reads r/asoiaf, is nitpicking etc. There is always something that explains why we are in the wrong. Can't just genuinely dislike something. We are always supposed to accept whatever D&D writes because the show being popular and successful shows that they are geniuses who cannot be criticized.

You can criticize the show, I do too. That /r/asoiaf mention was meant for those who call D&D „bad showrunners“, „gRrM wOuLd NeVeR dO tHis“, posts based on complete fantasy.

Casciavit wrote:I really enjoyed the episode but felt somewhat underwhelmed by the last 20 minutes or so.

Pretty much this. Also that score when NK faces Bran

I would have liked it much more if Arya was not shown in entire episode, protecting Bran and ambushing NK with bow and arrow tied with the dagger from vantage point. Knowing the fact that he will come for Bran sooner or later. That matrixesque jump was too much for me to digest.

A jump with a 20 inch vertical was too much, but shooting a 10 pound dagger tied to a fucking arrow would be alright?

It's been well established Arya is the most skilled assassin on the show. They spent 10 minutes of the episode to show how she could move undetected against the enemy, so it's not badly made at all. One of the few things I thought the director did an incredible job of illustrating clearly.

I am not saying the bow and arrow would be ideal, just brainstorming here. Here's another one, how about if Arya, just when she knew NK entered the Winterfell replaced Bran with herself courtesy her face change ability and drew him towards her, only to stab him and then peel off the mask. I know it's too much dramatic but yeah I would have liked that. Still cannot digest jumping on NK and killing him.

@Freeza
I didn't realize it a the time of course but I remember now in ep 1 (or 2?) of this season when Jon is in the godswood in the same spot as the night king would be and he fails to notice Arya sneaking up on him there.

Found these in r/got, the show only subreddit.

I think this is really what most people are genuinely upset about more than the unexpected happening. It's not so much about the unexpected happening storytelling wise, it was the unexpected production wise. A lot of weird design choices that took me as a viewer out of it:

Always showing main characters swamped in impossible odds, then cutting away before we see them get out of it, so when we see them again they are just impossibly alive

The cavalry charge that didn't adhere to basic cavalry tactics, fed the enemy army with a ton more troops, and killed like 99% of the Dothraki warriors all for that albeit very haunting shot of the lights going out

The weird setup of the army (catapults infront of the vanguard like wtf is that?) and only a single trench line, and between them and their point of retreat with a narrow bridge, basically dooming their army

The lack of proper defenses on the wall and the battlefield - more trenches, traps, pits, some sort of light such as fire pits so they can see wtf they're doing, etc

A non-reinforced front gate Jon KNOWS can be taken out by a single giant

The crypts lmfao

No backup plans whatsoever

All of those tactical mishaps that could have been avoided in planning despite almost all the greatest tactical minds in the show planning their defense.

That all being said still an epic battle and some of the best television I've seen, it just could have been imo the greatest TV AND film battle ever hands down if designed better.

D&D love surprises, almost as much as they like dick jokes and spectacle. They thought the value was in the surprise of it, and not in the world building or character texturing that the events established. Which is why everything now feels so hollowed out, so hand wavy, so formulaic and occasionally outright silly.

Ideas like "Game of Thrones is all about subverting expectations!" or "Game of Thrones is all about how anyone can die at any time!" are very shallow reads of the material. It's easy to subvert expectations. It's one of the simplest, laziest things a writer can do. Doing it in a way that feels earned, or satisfying, is an entirely different animal, and that's something these writers have proven entirely incapable of. All of that careful, intricate world building and characterization that typified the novels went straight out the window, and was replaced by Rule of Cool, because that's what D&D know and enjoy. Rather than training to be a faceless assassin who kills quietly via disguise and surprise...which alone takes ages and obliterates the trainee's personality...she becomes a ninja flipping jedi Assassin doing bicycle kicks and effortlessly defeating far more experienced and trained opponents in a matter of a few short months. Why? Because D&D think that's COOL. They think Arya is COOL. What could be COOLER than having your teenaged ninja assassin jump out of nowhere to assassinate the Night King with a sick dagger stab to the stomach? FOOKING AWESOME, right? Arya is a BADASS.

That's your show. That's the key lesson it's teaching you now. Is it FOOKING AWESOME? If so, they'll find a way to cram it in. Don't "expect the unexpected". Expect COOL SHIT, and dick jokes, and plot contrivance.

Agree with these. If you are not going to kill Jaime/Brienne/Sam then don't put them in situations that guarantee their deaths but they somehow make it alive.

Lucifer wrote:I am not saying the bow and arrow would be ideal, just brainstorming here. Here's another one, how about if Arya, just when she knew NK entered the Winterfell replaced Bran with herself courtesy her face change ability and drew him towards her, only to stab him and then peel off the mask. I know it's too much dramatic but yeah I would have liked that. Still cannot digest jumping on NK and killing him.

The NK knows who Bran and where exactly he is due to his mark. Not to say that it couldn't be done differently, it's just tricky.

My problem is if want to show Arya sneaking on some badass white walkers and the sneakily jump on fucking NK and then kill him with a dagger, show me the entire piece. Starting from where was Arya when they approached Bran how did she snuck through and ambush NK. Showing only the jump and kill is absolutely lazy.

The first post from r/got has some valid points

Second one is just utter nonsense all around. I'm not sure what else could be done with Arya to make her killing the NK feel more earned. They've spent 9 years setting her up as incredibly dangerous.

I'm not sure how this could have been done to that posters liking in a tv-series soap format. There's like 3-5 each episode to develop each character. It's hard to get much more than what we've actually gotten. And I think Arya has had one of the better arcs of the bunch showing what she can do. If anyone's arc is earned, it's definitely hers.

Seems like many of these people are craving longer format storytelling. But that will never happen in a 10 episode season show. It's much better suited for a book series, which can produced much cheaper and faster than a tv show that would require the same amount of information.

I found it interesting you mentioned earlier that subverting expectations after a while becomes boring. D&D said on Inside The Episode they chose Arya because it would be unexpected. They love going for shock value, I remember them also saying they made a particular change in season 5 because it would be more "shocking" I feel like they write the show with the priority of getting the best reaction videos. I also just have to assume Arya learned stealth and ninja moves offscreen because she only washed bodies and learnt how to fight blind in Braavos before leaving.

Oh well, Lord Glover is a genius, he was chilling while everyone else died and the Night King only made it far enough to Winterfell after 8 years of buildup. Cersei's master plan worked and the Night King was a plot device that weakened her enemies. The maesters in season 7 were right that there is no serious threat. Everyone who did not take the threat seriously enough is justified since the AOTD only got as far enough as Winterfell.

All in all, it's a pretty enjoyable scene with many exciting events that will leave you on the edge of your seat the entire time. But I agree with Luci, there are too many black holes in it that can ruin it for you at times. It's still a good scene, but the writing could've been better. They could've made it a GOAT episode if they had only thought everything through.

It's still a great show though.

Oh and I was really impressed with bran. Everyone, and I truly mean EVERYONE, soiled their pants in this episode. From tough, hard-bitten soldiers to powerless people underneath the crypte, and for a very good reason. The enemy was truly terrifying.

The only one who didn't show a shred of fear was bran. He looked the freaking NK in the eyes while he was with his entire army and about to execute him and still didn't tremble or even show the slightest sign of fear. and for a guy who's on a wheelchair, it's certainly even more impressive. Bravo, kid!

Confirmed! Podric has special powers. Everyone who listened to his song got Health +100, Aura of Protection, Glyph of Warding, True Strike on Primary Weapon, Chance of Critical Strike +50%, Disguise Self, Heroism and Stinking Cloud. What a bard, what a bard!

Lol just realized everyone in the fireplace survived. Pod