rincon wrote:@lucianomoggi and I agreeing on formations, tactics, and on Hernanes starting for now

tactics are complex there can be different approaches but i like juve/italian approach

the old lady knows what is doing there is football tradition here

there was this comment on goal


Vahid Bohlooli
What did we learn from this week Serie A?
The Italian champion destroyed Cagliari by scoring 4 to return on top after loosing Derby d'Italia. Bianconeri started by youngsters as Rugani, Lemina and Dybala then continue with Pjaca. Rugani and Alves scored their first goal by Juventus jersey while Higuain made 4th goal in Serie A. Juventus was a monester in this match and they had 28 total shots and 13 on target shots. The Italian giant had incredible show in defense and only 2 times Cagliari could strike on Juventus goalkeeper. The Turin Elite recorded 624 passes by 88% accuracy and 61% possession. This is why we saw Juventus as a CL contender Wendsday night. Here we want to have a look on players performance from season start to now:

Player . . . . . . . . Shots . . Acc . . Pass . . Acc . . Pass/90m . . Duels . . Duels won
Dybala(422m). . . 11 . . . . .18% . . 232 . . .88% . . . . 50. . . . . . . . 45 . . . . . . .42%
Higuain(216m). . 10 . . . . . 70% . . .52 . . . 83% . . . . 22. . . . . . . . 20 . . . . . . .40%
Pjaca(33m) . . . . . .2 . . . . . .50% . . 15 . . . 73% . . . . .41. . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . .75%
Mandzukic(234m)4 . . . . . .50% . . .45 . . .55% . . . . . 17. . . . . . . .31. . . . . . . 42%
Pjanic(270m) . . . .9 . . . . . .67% . . 208 . . 87% . . . . . 69. . . . . . . .22 . . . . . . .55%
Khedira(340m). . .8 . . . . . .63% . . 174 . . 83% . . . . . 46. . . . . . . .30 . . . . . .  43%
Lemina(360m) . . .6 . . . . . 50% . . .226 . . 91% . . . . . 57. . . . . . . .37 . . . . . . .57%
Asamoah(270m). 2 . . . . .  50% . . 117 . . 82% . . . . . .39. . . . . . . 40 . . . . . . . 68%
Hernanes(110m). 2 . . . . . .50% . . .74. . . 93% . . . . . 60. . . . . . . .14 . . . . . . . 57%
Sandro(450m) . . .3 . . . . . . .0% . . .265 . . 87% . . . . .53. . . . . . . .71 . . . . . . . 59%
Alves(253m) . . . . 2 . . . . . 100%. . .201 . . 83% . . . . .72. . . . . . . .42 . . . . . . . 50%
Litch(197m) . . . . .2 . . . . . 100%. . .102 . . 76% . . . . .47. . . . . . . .18 . . . . . . . .17%
Chiellini(440m). . 3 . . . . . . . 0% . . .315 . . 82% . . . . 64. . . . . . . .32 . . . . . . . . 56%
Bonucci(270m) . .1 . . . . . . . 0% . . .159 . . 87% . . . . 53. . . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . .70%
Barzagli(334m). . 0 . . . . . . . 0% . . .252 . . 92% . . . . 68. . . . . . . . 23 . . . . . . . .52%
Benatia(206m) . . 2 . . . . . . 50% . . 145 . . 92% . . . . .63. . . . . . . . 28 . . . . . . .  61%
Rugani(90m) . . . .1 . . . . . .100%. . . 49 . . 90% . . . . 49. . . . . . . . .11 . . . . . . . .36%


Strikers:
Paulo Dybala, who scored 23 goals last season for Juve, had a miserable action to find target this season. He had 1 shot every 38 minutes and 1 shot on target every 211 minutes. There is miserable record for Mandzukic too. He had 1 shot every 59 minutes (1 shot/hour). On the other hand,  Higuain every 22 minutes and Pjaca every 16 minutes had 1 shot. Higuain had best accuracy to find target between strikers. It is too bad that after six matches only Higuain could score between them.
* * * * * * * * * * IS DYBALA OUT OF FORM? NOOOOOO * * * * * * * * *
Dybala is trying to help midfielders and this is BIG MISTAKE. Dybala is a naturally goal scorer though he is a creative player. Because of departure of Pogba and injured Marchisio, Juventus could not find reliable midfield line yet. For this reason, Dybala is trying to help midfielders and he forgets to score. He had most number of shots between all players but it is clear there is no focus to score for Dybala.
It is very good that Dybala and Pjaca had 50 and 41 passes/90min. But they must remember scoring is their first duty. Higuain and Mandzukic by 22 and 17 passes per match had too low involvement and should improve.


Midfielders:
Similar with last season, Juventus could not find best midfield line yet. Best midfielder is Pjanic by 69 passes per match, then Hernanes by 60 and Lemina by 57. We remember Andrea Pirlo, Marchisio, Vidal and Pogba with 85 passes/90 min. It is too weak that Khedira and Asamoah had 46 and 39 passes per 90 minutes. Hernanes 93%, Lemina 91% and Pjanic 87% had best passing accuracy. Although Asamoah had best duel won percentage, he is not in his best form. When we have not enough reliable central midfielder, we should play 4-4-2. Sandro, Litchsteiner and Alves had good action. specially Alves by 72 passes/90min and Sandro by 71 duels to now.


Defenders:
They had good passing and passing accuracy as always. They had good condition in duels, expect of Rugani by 36% duels won. I hope Rugani can improve day by day.

i like it when ppl bring stats its more evidence/valuable than opinions

when he say

Dybala is trying to help midfielders and this is BIG MISTAKE

i dont agree on that
dybala is a #10 striker who swirches position when team go for the headers he is no big man to focus inside box he is our playmaker/striker messi like

To early to judge players and pull out statistics.

Yep, Sure its early to judge players,
But is still cool to see every game statistics, who is doing good who is doing bad, they are more evidence than an opinion

mandzukic + higuain
i like the pair

Hopefully we hold out, but this is some of the worst football I have ever seen, easily.

Even our goal was a 1/1000 stroke of luck.

Last 15 minutes against Palermo our possession is 80-20

This is what I mean about our backwards mentality. A top European club simply does not behave like this. We look so lethargic and have no idea what to do when the spaces are closed down by a semi-organised team.

Mandzukic is done, terrible.

Even his trademark workrate is no longer there.

He just turned a counter attacking opportunity in to a *bleep* Palermo throw in in our half which Palermo got a half chance from. Embarrassing.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Hopefully we hold out, but this is some of the worst football I have ever seen, easily.

Even our goal was a 1/1000 stroke of luck.

Last 15 minutes against Palermo our possession is 80-20

This is what I mean about our backwards mentality. A top European club simply does not behave like this. We look so lethargic and have no idea what to do when the spaces are closed down by a semi-organised team.

Considering the injuries and the way they payed + the field, I am satisfied. We need to change the formation, something is going on game after game Allegri experiments with something from what I've seen from him he does this kind of things only when we are close to a big change, btw we need a rest our midfield looks so tired, Asamoa is shit thou, might sound stupid and ungrateful I am glad he got injured today, without him we played better football.

btw did anyone noticed that when Chiellini came on field we started attacking again ?

I agree thou something needs to change and I have faith and know that Allegri is doing just that but slowly, after the international brake we'll see different approach I am sure of it (or at least hope so )

Disgraceful. Whoever thought it was a good idea to play Mandzukic and Higuain together should be arrested and locked up...

Higuain-Mandzukic together is a laughing stock lol... 0 creativity upfront! We got the 3 points and that is the ONLY thing that matters as Allegri says. I like that Dybala was rested

Higuain - Mandzukic wasn't that bad, the problem was the midfield again, we couldn't hold a ball or pass it even if our life depended on it. Give Mandzukic a rest ffs he was like cursed 2 shots were really good but damn that GK is talented. Players seem so confused.

Moving on to the next game, lets give it time we'll improve. To much panic since the Inter game ffs.

Asamoah is out for whole season it seems he was crying, Sturaro is also out, that leaves us with Pjanic, Lemina, Khedira, Hernanes. Now we have to play 4-4-2 or something.

the energy of the team has reduced a lot compared to conte days

i just hope that we get better than before technically because we have some good players

we are lucky to collect points with such a terrible teamwork we can hardly string 5 passes together

i would not go attacking minded with a team that is not good on ball posession/teamwork

pjaca; i want to be new morata
alegri; pjaca never played with ronaldo

whats with these mind games reducing pressure
i like the opposite
i like players feel more responsible/pressure

: #Asamoah injured his right knee & it concerns his ligaments. #Rugani also injured his right knee but not his ligaments.

I would kill to see this :

With Cuadrado, Alex Sandro and Evra filling in for midfielders as Devi suggested

Khedira is already overworked and Pjanic is not up to the level of intensity we need, the answer is not putting all out midfielders out at the same time so that everyone gets extra tired and we have no bench options. We play 3 games a week.

At the same time, Khedira-Pjanic is not dynamic enough to be a midfield pair for a 4-4-2 like Devi's.

A midfield 3 is the right balance between the making up for the lack of dynamism and keeping bench options.

Until Marchisio and Sturaro come back we have to manage the mid delicately.

i understand some may dislike the idea of higuain and maandzukic together

because i remember days we played amauri and iaquinta i was like wtf?

but you must not forget that juventus is a club who aims winning and to do that you need two guys for the headers in serie a because opponents park the bus and the game becomes nothing but long balls and headers


when we played a guy like dybala or del piero which was a playmaker #10, on that case you need a guy like vieira, khedira to go for the headers and switch positions with dybala and do the second target striker role

on this case is even better because you have dybala who threatens on counterattacks but when team go for headers he becomes attacking midfielder


sandro -- higuain -- khedira -- alves
-------- pjanic --- dybala ---------
------------- marchisio----------------
--- chiellini -- bonuci --- barzagli---


sandro --- higuain -- mandzukic ---- alves
----------- pjanic ---- hernanes ----------
----------------- lemina ----------------
-------chiellini -- bonuci ----barzagli


on this formation you again have two playmakers and two men for the headers


to win serie a you need two playmakers, two men for the headers

however when its an away game there is no problem if we approach a little more defensive like with one less playmaker we did against palermo

sandro -- higuain -- mandzukic --- alves
----------- pjanic --- khedira ----------
----------------- lemina ----------------
chiellini -------- bonuci -------- barzagli


i know everyone likes to switch to something like 433

the problem is who are you going to substitute out?

here is barcelona approach on guardiola days

henry ---- eto ---- messi ---- alves
----------- iniesta --- xavi ---------
-------------- busquets -------------
abidal --------- pique -------- poyol


the difference is they have henry a side striker instead of sandro and they dont have a guy like khedira to go for headers but three playmakers , messi, iniesta, xavi

this is the reason why barcelona has found it difficult sometimes to play against sides like inter, chealse, they hade too much talent to move the ball around but not enough strength to intimidate opponents inside the box

they did not have guys like drogba, vieira


now a problem is that when you play against strong sides who defend too hard is difficult to score goals like that without men who can go for headers

but a guy like messi he was extreme talented this decade he was dribbling against 4 and when you have a guy like that on that case the formation is not winning it is messi who is winning

we have some really talented players like higuain, dybala, pjanic, who they play really good football but if you remove the guys like sandro, khedira to add guys like pjaca, hernanes the problem is that its not like you adding something better and i wouldnt do it, i would not sacrifice the defensive skills unless i would be more confident that a player is worth it

rincon wrote:Khedira is already overworked and Pjanic is not up to the level of intensity we need, the answer is not putting all out midfielders out at the same time so that everyone gets extra tired and we have no bench options. We play 3 games a week.

At the same time, Khedira-Pjanic is not dynamic enough to be a midfield pair for a 4-4-2 like Devi's.

A midfield 3 is the right balance between the making up for the lack of dynamism and keeping bench options.

Until Marchisio and Sturaro come back we have to manage the mid delicately.

Actually Cuadrado and Sandro provide the needed balance and dynamism, Khedira can play little deeper role as pure DM he has played as one and can do it once more, what Pjanic and Khedira lack in dynamism, Cuadrado and Sandro add in that plus we have double 'wingbacks' in this formation Evra - Sandro, Alves - Cuadrado. The balance is there, this can be done, but will it happen? No

If our mid is already performing poorly then taking out one of them just makes it worse. Teams playing with 2 mids get destroyed in Serie A cause everyon plays with 3-5 mids. A midfield 2 needs 2 very good mids in terms of intensity. Khedira can't do that kind of defensive work all by himself, he always looked worst when played as a DM in Madrid. Even in Germany he is the one that roams in the double pivot.

Pjanic himself is not particularly mobile so those 2 are incompatible for doing the job alone. You need Marchisio in there to make it work.

It can work in the sense that our wings will be very dangerous and the counters will be great, but we would be surrendering possesion and the midfield play altogether. I don't know if thats what you want. Dybala would have to come back to the mid even more than right now to try to get the ball up. On top of that we have no back up for the left side, and no back up for Cuadrado. Too complicated to be our main system.

------------Higuain----------------------------
-----------------Dybala--------------Cuadrado
-------Pjanic---------------Khedira------------
Sandro-------------Hernanes------------------
---------Chiellini----Bonucci----Barzagli------

This is perfect for me in our current situation. Keep the defence intact as its our guarantee. Keep Pjanic close to Dybala. Keep Dybala in his best position as an SS. Attack with Cuadrado and Sandro.

rincon wrote:If our mid is already performing poorly then taking out one of them just makes it worse. Teams playing with 2 mids get destroyed in Serie A cause everyon plays with 3-5 mids. A midfield 2 needs 2 very good mids in terms of intensity. Khedira can't do that kind of defensive work all by himself, he always looked worst when played as a DM in Madrid. Even in Germany he is the one that roams in the double pivot.

Pjanic himself is not particularly mobile so those 2 are incompatible for doing the job alone. You need Marchisio in there to make it work.

It can work in the sense that our wings will be very dangerous and the counters will be great, but we would be surrendering possesion and the midfield play altogether. I don't know if thats what you want. Dybala would have to come back to the mid even more than right now to try to get the ball up. On top of that we have no back up for the left side, and no back up for Cuadrado. Too complicated to be our main system.

------------Higuain----------------------------
-----------------Dybala--------------Cuadrado
-------Pjanic---------------Khedira------------
Sandro-------------Hernanes------------------
---------Chiellini----Bonucci----Barzagli------

This is perfect for me in our current situation. Keep the defence intact as its our guarantee. Keep Pjanic close to Dybala. Keep Dybala in his best position as an SS. Attack with Cuadrado and Sandro.

I forgot about Hernanes . I was talking about the Dinamo match not for our main formation, we have no depth for it :agree:

On the other note, Tevez, Vidal, Pogba they weren't our most important players, its pretty obvious its Marchisio, we need another player like him damn it.

Oh yeah I agree that for Dynamo that would be good. I thought you meant switching to it as a whole.

Marchisio was for sure our most important player last season. He has become too important for us. Its hard to find someone like him.

From tuttojuve for the dynamo match:

the classic 3-5-2: BBC; Dybala-Higuain; Khedira and Pjanic play, Hernanes seems likely to start. Only doubts are the wings.

rincon wrote:Oh yeah I agree that for Dynamo that would be good. I thought you meant switching to it as a whole.

Marchisio was for sure our most important player last season. He has become too important for us. Its hard to find someone like him.

I like Florenzi, reminds me so much of Marchisio.

Florenzi is awesome, I'm a big fan, not for Marchisio's position but basically anywhere else.