Sanchez steals Golden Ball without single MoM performance and not even finishing the final.

Meh, Messi wouldn't have wanted it anyway

Choker scrubs doing what they do best

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Losing on penalties hurts more than losing by 3 or 4 goals because you feel you're so close, yet so far. And whoever misses their penalty isn't going to sleep well at night.

I'd take penalties loss over the 7-1 tbh.

Football is a collective sport. People who puts tha blame on Messi for the loss is dumb, simly. As great as he is he also relies on his teamates and some of them didn't deliver once again ...
He's been really unlucky with the NT despite being great. Honestly this got me thinking of how hard it is to achieve success in life.

A shout out to Bravo. Gordon Banks save on Pele was called the save of the last century.
I think Bravo's save was the save of this century. An otherworldly save in a major tournament final. Some saves look better than they actually are in real time. Not the case this time. This looked even more outstanding on replay. Proved why he starts for us in the league and why it is difficult to bench him for MATS. It is going to provide even more headaches for us next season.

Cruijf wrote:Curious to hear Alex's thoughts.

Personally think Messi had an outstanding tournament and an outstanding game and was MOTM up until the shoot out. I don't think he's weak mentally tbh, he's come clutch many times before. He's just a bad penalty taker. I dont think that should define his performance but he must take some of the blame.

Regardless I think it's stupid to put too much emphasis on this tournament. With or without it he is one of the best players in history and IMO the best ever.

I thought he had an outstanding game. For the way he plays now and taking the opponent into consideration, I dont think he could have done any better. A great effort from Leo.

Pre game, I had mentioned that Argentina getting him the ball repeatedly in areas he prefers had led to him stamping his mark on games. However, I had also noted that Chile are a great team who wouldnt give him the space on the ball. Chile are outstanding and probably the best team in the world after Germany.

So it was going to be tough for Messi to shine. Add in the fact that the Copa is brutal and the refs give players license to kill. Chile are a great pressing team, splendid organizationally and due to the nature of the Copa, had the license to foul him repeatedly.

Under the circumstances, he was outstanding. A splendid and awe inspiring dribbling display against an elite defensive team. He shimmered with genius throughout the night and at times it took 3 to 4 players to stop him. Created almost all their chances and half chances. Drew the foul which led to Diaz getting deservedly sent off. Won multiple fouls.Unfortunately didnt have luck on his side. A disgusting red card for Rojo, Higuain missing a one on one, Bravo pulling off the save of the century. Just wasnt meant to be.

I dont think Maradona himself would have done any better under the circumstances. Considering the very high level of the opponent and the cynical and hard play, one of the best tournament final performances I have seen.

I had said that Messi needed a great NT knockout performance to really establish his legacy and I think he has delivered. Cant remember a better knockout performance in a major NT tournament in recent memory. Hats off to Messi for an outstanding tournament.

Cruijf wrote:BC I didn't see the first game. Do you think it's actually because of Messi they beat Chile comfortably then and are struggling now?

Might sound a bit contradictory after what I said in my previous post. Tough question to answer. It is undoubtedly true that we shouldnt put too much stock in a group stage win. Chile improved throughout the tournament and were a different team in the final. I dont think a Messi less Argentina would have beat Chile in the final.

Having said that, it is an interesting topic for debate. I think Argentina and Argentines are suffering from a Maradona complex. They see Maradona as some sort of savior and ever since Maradona retired , they have been looking for another savior to replace him. I think they are more interested in one single Superman character leading them to glory than they are in an actually tactically competent winning team. This manifests itself in coaching decisions, player choices and tactics and the lot.
Maradona 86 was once in a lifetime and it is just not possible in the modern game. The modern game is far too organized and the a player like Maradona wouldnt have been able to deliver the same sort of performance today. Especially at a tournament like the Copa. Chile had both the great organization and the rough play which the refs allowed.

A player like Messi and Maradona(static players who wait for the ball to feet to then perform the glory play) cant expect to perform an 86 in the modern game. Just not possible.

So then what could have been done differently(here comes the contradiction). And this comes back to my constant gripe with Messi. He is just not great off the ball. When you are not getting the ball in areas that you like, what is the solution? Movement. Run, move to get yourself free. Basically movement to create space both for himself and the team.
It is the basics of Cruyffian and Barcelona football and yet the current version of Messi is far away from it. He has been educated in Cruyffian football from the age of 13.
Consider a hypothetical scenario. An expert on Cruyffian football who didnt know that Messi has been a Barca player since the age of 13. Assume he was shown a random sample of Messi games from the last few years(including from the last Copa) and asked the following question.
"Do you think the number 10 is a disciple of the Cruyff school of football?"
What do you think his answer would be? He would answer that Messi is not a disciple of the Cruyff school of football. Cruyff said that a player touches the ball maybe 3 minutes a game. For 87 minutes, he doesnt touch the ball. So it is far more important what a player does off the ball than what he does on it. Those were the Johan's thoughts. It seems Messi has completely moved away from that line of thought. His off the ball game is practically non existent. He now plays like an old school number 10 waiting for the ball to then do his stuff.

Messi 10/11 was the perfect combination I feel. He had the on the ball game(though not as good as now) and the off the ball game(much better than now). Maybe I am expecting too much , a Frankenstein version of Messi combining his movement from 10/11 and the on the ball game of now.
I just think he would be a far more consistent threat if he had a better off the ball game. It is one of the reasons I dont rank him as the GOAT. Cruyff is still the undisputed GOAT for me.

I think the 2 most important factors are that Chile have grown throughout the tournament and that the 2nd game was 10 vs 10. Argentina actually looked quite good when it was 11 vs 11, but with Rojo out Martino decided to replace a beat Di Maria with Kranevitter (a DM), ceding control of the midfield and possession. That meant that our forwards had to pick up the ball at the half point and didn't have any passing options to play off. Had ADM been replaced by Lamela at HT I think it would have been a very different game. But Martino chose to play it "safe".

While the game was indeed, and undeniably, conditioned by the ref's decisions, Messi's lack of leadership and character again showed in this big match. Maradona must have given a sardonic chuckle when he saw Messi's penalty.

While I did LOL after the penalty, I did actually feel bad for him when he announced his retirement from Argentina NT. The man was just utterly broken and it sucks watching someone so great grieving like that. Hope he get's out of that hole when time has healed his wound a bit.

Lord Awesome wrote:While the game was indeed, and undeniably, conditioned by the ref's decisions, Messi's lack of leadership and character again showed in this big match. Maradona must have given a sardonic chuckle when he saw Messi's penalty.

While I did LOL after the penalty, I did actually feel bad for him when he announced his retirement from Argentina NT. The man was just utterly broken and it sucks watching someone so great grieving like that. Hope he get's out of that hole when time has healed his wound a bit.

Please tell me that you are you implying that missing a pen = Lacking leadership ? Also leadrship can be many things ? It's not only about giving great speeches like in the movies. Messi's presence alone and the way he takes all the pressure on his shoulders is leadership. His presence allows Aguero and Higuain to be under the radar despite not performing well. while his mates were losing their cool , dude was keeping his as much as possible.

Imo , they lost due to bad luck and others players not performing (Pipita's 1vs1) .

LeBéninois wrote:

Lord Awesome wrote:While the game was indeed, and undeniably, conditioned by the ref's decisions, Messi's lack of leadership and character again showed in this big match. Maradona must have given a sardonic chuckle when he saw Messi's penalty.

While I did LOL after the penalty, I did actually feel bad for him when he announced his retirement from Argentina NT. The man was just utterly broken and it sucks watching someone so great grieving like that. Hope he get's out of that hole when time has healed his wound a bit.

Please tell me that you are you implying that missing a pen = Lacking leadership ? Also leadrship can be many things ?  It's not only about giving great speeches like in the movies. Messi's presence alone and the way he takes all the pressure on his shoulders is leadership. His presence allows Aguero and Higuain to be under the radar despite not performing well.  while his mates were losing their cool , dude was keeping his as much as possible.

Imo , they lost due to bad luck and others players not performing (Pipita's 1vs1) .

don't ya know you can't be a leader unless you needlessly make a huddle and yell bullshit?

the fact that people blame messi for everything but apparently feel bad for higuain for sucking is enough to prove how messi's presence alone makes his national teammates feel so much less criticized or even accounted.

Leaders needing personality and all that, it really misunderstands what a leader is. A leader can be incredibly quiet, or very vocal. It depends on the team.

I know on my high school team that if we had a vocal leader, a lot of people would have been pissed and annoyed. That's how we were. Sure enough, I was chosen captain despite being a pretty quiet person.

It depends on the team. Some need it, some don't want it. All that stuff is bullshit.

This "a leader needs to be big and loud like a medieval cavalry charge" shit is not accurate.

There's like a bazillion war movies in where the officer in charge of the platoon/squadron is the quiet, reserved type who doesn't blabber his mouth at every order, but usually leads by example and is highly respected due knowing what to do and what not to do, apart from obviously motivating his soldiers.

The best real life boss I've ever had is a 165 cm guy, maybe 6 years older than me, who was a reserved but extremely knowledgeable person who was extremely correct and by the book, but understood that shit happens and could even bend the rules every now and then in order to cut you some slack. But you were very clear that if you screwed up, he would have your ass and not even have to raise his voice to do it. He earned my discipline.

I know Messi doesn't exactly radiate this, but he's very driven and selfless in the field, apart from the godly skills.

I will be honest and say I prefer Mascherano as a captain, but there's no way I'd put the blame on Messi for bad leadership, FFS.

you can be a leader like gerrard that made warcry ala 300

or

you can be a leader like riquelme that only made sharp stares if others did something wrong

Who said anything about being loud and proud?

You guys misunderstood. When I mean leadership, it's more about showing up and make your presence known to your teammates and opponents alike.

The Penalty is only the symbol of what I'm trying to say. The only things Messi did in the regular game was own the ref until he got a yellow and missed a shot, some dribbles here and there, and a shortage of profound passes, but really, Messi was reminiscent of Ronaldo whenever he's in tight spaces (only Messi gets excused, apparently, cause he dribbles or something). Only difference is that Ronaldo is capable of finding a way through whereas Messi finds his way by relying on more on his teammates. And that's what most of these comments are suggesting. That it's always his teammates and never him. "It's because Argentina are so individualistic that Messi loses."

Please. No more excuses.

Argentina's real flaw is not Messi himself, IMO, but their continued reliance on Messi. Tata Martino (who was practically appointed by Messi) has made this imaginary tendency, for Argentina NT, to have Messi solve everything. That's the real flaw.

people honestly believe messi appointed tata as the manager?

yeah he really missed him from his departure in barcelona after going trophy-less and admitting he was out of his element.