It is not just this match eelir, I've been saying it all season and most apart from a certain troll would agree with me. He is not a defender PERIOD. He adds nothing to the build up game and his defensive play is ever worse. Gets out-muscled and out-jumped all match against ANYONE he's up against. Not to mention he has no idea of runners behind him most of the time. It is comical

MSN jetlagged and barely featured. Overall not a big deal as the only thing at stake in this match was bragging rights.

That was good loss on long run I think, you can't win games like these which are scheduled and officiated against you, but the loss will keep Barcelona sharper. Now we have something to rise against again. I just hope everyone made easy money from this, because it's never been easier.

Suarez and Alba the obvious horrorshows.

After pique goal team stopped playing.after benzema goal again no reaction. In last 3 minutes neymar woke up and showed some dribbling.but it was too late. He didnt make any dribble whole match and suddenly dribbled 3 players. This made me think that Enrique's tactics was "save the energy dont run dont dribble"
It was the sleepy version of barcelona

Pathetic performance and shame on our players. All of them played bad. Yes, this Clasico doesnt mean much. But we should have won it for Cruyff. Instead we put in an insipid display with no one showing any heart and desire. Madrid wanted it more and deservedly won.
Tactics were a joke and the entire blame goes to Messi. He played the entire game in the middle. This creates a multitude of problems.

Firstly, on the offence. It is way too predictable. He is going to drop. Try the dribble. Too many players. Try the lofted pass to the left. Covered. Loses the ball. Rinse and repeat. If he insists on playing central, then it would help if he doesnt completely ignore the right side of the pitch. His passing and vision becomes way too dimensional. There is acres of space on the right because the opposition has shifted to his left. If he just got his head up to look, plenty of passing options.
Best option is that he stays wide 60-70 % of the time and comes central the rest. Less crowded and can take on the fullback.

Messi playing central also creates multiple problems defensively.Firstly it forces Rakitic wide. He takes up the wide right position. When we lose the ball , it leaves Busquets two options. He can either press and try to win the ball or atleast try to slow the opposition counter till Rakitic gets back into a central position. Or he can stay back. Staying back is risky and will leave Busquets alone in acres of space. So he goes for the slightly less risky option. He presses.Because our pressing is a joke(again due to MEssi), Busquets tries to press and win the ball back early.
When he fails, we get to see what we saw countless times today. I have always felt that the way we play, the best way to attack us is through the center and not through the wings(as most experts) will say.

Because Rakitic goes wide, there is plenty of space to exploit in the center on the counter. All they have to do is beat the initial Busquets press and we have 3,4 players running at Pique and Masch. Marcelo did that beautifully time and time again today. Beat the initial press and made the outside to in run through our center numerous times with no one to stop him.
Problem gets exacerbated when we defend even more poorly. Neymar didnt track ball at all and it is something I have been noticing for a few games now. He sees Messi walking around as if owns the pitch and probably thinks why he should be busting his guts.
So with Neymar not helping out, that leaves Iniesta out on the wing(if he is not caught upfield) and opposition running at Pique and Masch. They then play the ball wide to stretch us even more and we are caught all out of position.
Had Messi stayed wide, most of the problems wont have happened. Firstly Rakitic would be central where he would be in a position to help Busquts. Secondly, Marcelo wouldnt have ventured forward as much and he was the major threat for Madrid all game. Lastly we would have been much better in offense.

We simply cannot afford to play like this going forward. It just asks too much of Busquets who has to be perfect in every decision he makes. As good as he is, he is also human and not perfect. If his timing is off even a bit, he ends up in No Man's land and looking like an idiot like in todays game and against Villreal.Messi has to stay wide 60-70 % of the time. If he goes central( and Rakitic wide), then he has to put in the defensive effort when we lose the ball. He helps Busquets press and if the press doesnt work, he tracks back and defends till Rakitic gets back into position. Neymar also tracks back, thereby allowing Iniesta to cover the middle. We cant let him have ideas that he can slack Messi.
You simply cant defend with 6 players against a team like Madrid(Rakitic is effectively taken out when he is that wide). That leaves the 4 defenders and Busquets, Iniesta. If the fullbacks too are caught upfield, that leaves even less numbers against a fast counterattacking team like Madrid.


A shout out to Madrid who played excellently and deservedly won. I thought their front three were light years ahead of ours in this game. More importantly, they showed a willingness to track back and defend which our primadonnas couldnt be bothered to do. The highlight of the game for me was CR tracking Alba's run deep in his own half. That summed up the game for me.
Atleast in this game, BBC >>MSN.

Alex your complaining has no value. team almost already won La liga and copa del rey second time in a row and on their way to reach CL semis. no team in europe have such success. players that you mentioned perform when its needed and walk when its not needed. the main goal is to win titles. Think that if you were a madrid fan you would make a suicide

While I agree that BBC were a far cry from MSN today, you also have to take into account that MSN had to take 12 hour plane rides to get to Barcelona whereas BBC at most 2. One side were in prime health and the other was simply not. Not that it's an excuse, but one side was simply much better rested.

I completely agree with not playing Messi centrally btw, it serves no purpose to have both Suarez and Messi there. If Messi plays centrally Suarez can't be the one on the "wing".

It seems to me that the reason messi played there because he was tired and had no energy to run in wings. Best place for walking is center. In wings you have too many jobs related to running

BarrileteCosmico wrote:While I agree that BBC were a far cry from MSN today, you also have to take into account that MSN had to take 12 hour plane rides to get to Barcelona whereas BBC at most 2. One side were in prime health and the other was simply not. Not that it's an excuse, but one side was simply much better rested.

I completely agree with not playing Messi centrally btw, it serves no purpose to have both Suarez and Messi there. If Messi plays centrally Suarez can't be the one on the "wing".

It is not about MSN vs BBC. That was just one tiny part of the post. My point was about the suicidal tactic of Messi playing centrally and the impossible situation it leaves Busquets in.
The objective of any football tactic should be to enable players to not have to make random difficult decisions. With the current tactic, that is what Busquets is having to do, make random difficult decisions. Now the question might be asked why does it work majority of the time.
Couple of reasons. The first being that Busquets is that damn good. One of the most intelligent players I have seen. His understanding of timing, space and the ability to close down space is peerless. But even he is human. When he is repeatedly asked to make difficult decisions, he will fail and that is what we have seen in the last 3 matches. I myself have criticized him but I realize that it is nowhere his fault. His timing has been a bit off and because he decides to press when we lose the ball(he thinks it is a better option than staying back and I mostly agree), he ends up in No Man's Land and looking like an idiot(with no hope of catching back up with the play).

Has he been at fault the last 3 games? Absolutely not. As good as he is, he is not perfect and when he is repeatedly asked to make such decisions against good teams, he will falter.

The second reason has been that Neymar hasnt been tracking back recently. That means that in addition to Rakitic, Iniesta too has to do the job of 2 men. He has to cover the wings and the center. That leaves our center woefully exposed on the counter.

Why is it that we tend to struggle against MAdrid so much these days? Are they a great side? No they are not.
Man for man, we are a better side(barring a couple) and should be beating them comfortably? So the logical conclusion is that it is tactical issue(caused by one particular player in this case)
Why is it that the one time Messi didnt play, we trounced them at their own ground with Scruberto replacing him? Sure there were other factors but the overwhelming one was that Messi didnt play and we were tactically solid.
It is also the reason Messi has been useless in GOD knows how many CLasico's. I guarantee that had someone else played instead of Messi(Scruberto, Munir, Sandro) , we would have won or at the very least drawn.

Actually, Madrid are pretty underrated since Zidane took over because, despite injuries to Bale and Benz for long stretches, the team has gone 10 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss while sporting a really good GF/GA ratio.  Needed a few games against better sides to see what worked... and Kroos as a deep playing mid was axed for Casemiro + Kroos was pushed up where he is much better.  The physical fitness of the team was pathetic when he took over too so that needed to get built up.

People made fun of me... i saw what he was trying to set up and I saw the tactical changes.  It was just a matter of whether he had the right players to implement them now.  It's far from perfect...  but it's manageable and organized as opposed to the shambles under Rafa.  You no longer have huge line gaps and the team is functioning fairly cohesively.

So yeah... Madrid is pretty good.  Elite?  That's up for debate.  It will all depend on fitness.  Varane is critical and we cannot afford any issues with our starting XI.  We don't have proper replacements on the bench other than at fullback and CB.  Just had too many injuries this season and Isco/James have been nothing short of pathetic mostly.

Yeah your team is good but we lost this match with our tactics.
If Messi stays wide or someone else plays instead of him, we win.
As good as Madrid are, we are better. Man for man, barring Marcelo and maybe Modric, we are better.
With good tactics, we should win most games quite comfortably.
Problem is that we are taking to the field with a player who is frankly a liability both offensively and defensively.

alexjanosik wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:While I agree that BBC were a far cry from MSN today, you also have to take into account that MSN had to take 12 hour plane rides to get to Barcelona whereas BBC at most 2. One side were in prime health and the other was simply not. Not that it's an excuse, but one side was simply much better rested.

I completely agree with not playing Messi centrally btw, it serves no purpose to have both Suarez and Messi there. If Messi plays centrally Suarez can't be the one on the "wing".

It is not about MSN vs BBC. That was just one tiny part of the post. My point was about the suicidal tactic of Messi playing centrally and the impossible situation it leaves Busquets in.
The objective of any football tactic should be to enable players to not have to make random difficult decisions. With the current tactic, that is what Busquets is having to do, make random difficult decisions. Now the question might be asked why does it work majority of the time.
Couple of reasons. The first being that Busquets is that damn good. One of the most intelligent players I have seen. His understanding of timing, space and the ability to close down space is peerless. But even he is human. When he is repeatedly asked to make difficult decisions, he will fail and that is what we have seen in the last 3 matches. I myself have criticized him but I realize that it is nowhere his fault. His timing has been a bit off and because he decides to press when we lose the ball(he thinks it is a better option than staying back and I mostly agree), he ends up in No Man's Land and looking like an idiot(with no hope of catching back up with the play).

Has he been at fault the last 3 games? Absolutely not. As good as he is, he is not perfect and when he is repeatedly asked to make such decisions against good teams, he will falter.

The second reason has been that Neymar hasnt been tracking back recently. That means that in addition to Rakitic, Iniesta too has to do the job of 2 men. He has to cover the wings and the center. That leaves our center woefully exposed on the counter.

Why is it that we tend to struggle against MAdrid so much these days? Are they a great side? No they are not.
Man for man, we are a better side(barring a couple) and should be beating them comfortably? So the logical conclusion is that it is tactical issue(caused by one particular player in this case)
Why is it that the one time Messi didnt play, we trounced them at their own ground with Scruberto replacing him? Sure there were other factors but the overwhelming one was that Messi didnt play and we were tactically solid.
It is also the reason Messi has been useless in GOD knows how many CLasico's. I guarantee that had someone else played instead of Messi(Scruberto, Munir, Sandro) , we would have won or at the very least drawn.

You could write a thesis on cognitive dissonance just from your posts

Your logic and analysis is generally good and starts well, but then for some reason you have to find a way to blame it on Messi at the end. I would kill to know why you hate him so much tbh. It can't be his laziness because Neymar is just as lazy (probably more tbh) and I don't see you trying to blame every loss on him.

To address your actual points: the blame for Messi playing centrally must fall solely and completely on Enrique. We've seen in countless games Messi stay strictly on the wing and not drift inside. Why the sudden change?

Even if it was Messi just deciding to break from the winning formula, why didn't Enrique do anything? It wasn't even like Messi would start wide and then come inside. It was a very clear and conscious decision for him to start centrally and play in the midfield to give numerical superiority against Madrid's three. And it worked. You dominated the first hour and if the referee had eyes the game would've been over 30 minutes in.

Now, in the last 20-30 minutes the entire team clearly relaxed and let Real back into the contest. Numerous defensive mistakes were made and the midfield was stretched due to Rakitic and Iniesta (who had both been doing monstrous jobs) tiring. Arda came on but he was poor and Real were able to regain control of the middle and tear apart a rather pathetic Barca defense multiple times.

Was MSN poor? Absolutely. But as BC has said multiple times this was more due to jet lag and complacency than anything else. And despite being clearly exhausted and spending 90% of the game walking Messi was still your best player going forward - there was absolutely no creativity other than him and all your chances started with him.

Again, you clearly are not clueless when it comes to football but you are letting your irrational hate of Messi take you to a bizarre conclusion. You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that your idol missed an open net that could've ended the game and was atrocious all match.

I agree with your conclusions on Messi playing inside making you vulnerable defensively. But I think it's absolutely ridiculous to assume this came from his own whims. It was clearly a calculated risk by Enrique that worked for 60 minutes and would have paid off had fatigue and an idiotic referee not cost you.

Cruijf wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:While I agree that BBC were a far cry from MSN today, you also have to take into account that MSN had to take 12 hour plane rides to get to Barcelona whereas BBC at most 2. One side were in prime health and the other was simply not. Not that it's an excuse, but one side was simply much better rested.

I completely agree with not playing Messi centrally btw, it serves no purpose to have both Suarez and Messi there. If Messi plays centrally Suarez can't be the one on the "wing".

It is not about MSN vs BBC. That was just one tiny part of the post. My point was about the suicidal tactic of Messi playing centrally and the impossible situation it leaves Busquets in.
The objective of any football tactic should be to enable players to not have to make random difficult decisions. With the current tactic, that is what Busquets is having to do, make random difficult decisions. Now the question might be asked why does it work majority of the time.
Couple of reasons. The first being that Busquets is that damn good. One of the most intelligent players I have seen. His understanding of timing, space and the ability to close down space is peerless. But even he is human. When he is repeatedly asked to make difficult decisions, he will fail and that is what we have seen in the last 3 matches. I myself have criticized him but I realize that it is nowhere his fault. His timing has been a bit off and because he decides to press when we lose the ball(he thinks it is a better option than staying back and I mostly agree), he ends up in No Man's Land and looking like an idiot(with no hope of catching back up with the play).

Has he been at fault the last 3 games? Absolutely not. As good as he is, he is not perfect and when he is repeatedly asked to make such decisions against good teams, he will falter.

The second reason has been that Neymar hasnt been tracking back recently. That means that in addition to Rakitic, Iniesta too has to do the job of 2 men. He has to cover the wings and the center. That leaves our center woefully exposed on the counter.

Why is it that we tend to struggle against MAdrid so much these days? Are they a great side? No they are not.
Man for man, we are a better side(barring a couple) and should be beating them comfortably? So the logical conclusion is that it is tactical issue(caused by one particular player in this case)
Why is it that the one time Messi didnt play, we trounced them at their own ground with Scruberto replacing him? Sure there were other factors but the overwhelming one was that Messi didnt play and we were tactically solid.
It is also the reason Messi has been useless in GOD knows how many CLasico's. I guarantee that had someone else played instead of Messi(Scruberto, Munir, Sandro) , we would have won or at the very least drawn.

You could write a thesis on cognitive dissonance just from your posts

Your logic and analysis is generally good and starts well, but then for some reason you have to find a way to blame it on Messi at the end. I would kill to know why you hate him so much tbh. It can't be his laziness because Neymar is just as lazy (probably more tbh) and I don't see you trying to blame every loss on him.

To address your actual points: the blame for Messi playing centrally must fall solely and completely on Enrique. We've seen in countless games Messi stay strictly on the wing and not drift inside. Why the sudden change?

Even if it was Messi just deciding to break from the winning formula, why didn't Enrique do anything? It wasn't even like Messi would start wide and then come inside. It was a very clear and conscious decision for him to start centrally and play in the midfield to give numerical superiority against Madrid's three. And it worked. You dominated the first hour and if the referee had eyes the game would've been over 30 minutes in.

Now, in the last 20-30 minutes the entire team clearly relaxed and let Real back into the contest. Numerous defensive mistakes were made and the midfield was stretched due to Rakitic and Iniesta (who had both been doing monstrous jobs) tiring. Arda came on but he was poor and Real were able to regain control of the middle and tear apart a rather pathetic Barca defense multiple times.

Was MSN poor? Absolutely. But as BC has said multiple times this was more due to jet lag and complacency than anything else. And despite being clearly exhausted and spending 90% of the game walking Messi was still your best player going forward - there was absolutely no creativity other than him and all your chances started with him.

Again, you clearly are not clueless when it comes to football but you are letting your irrational hate of Messi take you to a bizarre conclusion. You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that your idol missed an open net that could've ended the game and was atrocious all match.

I agree with your conclusions on Messi playing inside making you vulnerable defensively. But I think it's absolutely ridiculous to assume this came from his own whims. It was clearly a calculated risk by Enrique that worked for 60 minutes and would have paid off had fatigue and an idiotic referee not cost you.

So you agree with me but dont agree with me.
Worked for 60 minutes. What game were you watching? Madrid had the better chances and we created jack.What did Messi create all game? He was the worst player on our team.
We didnt dominate jack and barely created any chances. And the reason for that Messi playing centrally and his one dimensional play which is easy for any well drilled side to defend.
Why dont you address the tactical points I raised instead of calling me a hater?

And you are plain wrong when you say that Neymar is as lazy as Messi. Not even close. He has defended very well for the majority of his time here and never slacks. It is only recently that he has been found to slack, no doubt influenced by Messi.
Even then he works twice as hard as Messi.
Yes, Suarez was poor but then he doesnt become a liability on the pitch like Messi does.

Your points about Enrique asking Messi to play centrally is also not true. Messi does what he does and doesnt take positional instructions. That has been proven and even Pep has said that Messi plays and goes where he wants and that the rest of the team adjusts accordingly.

I agree with Cruif.

Pretty annoying that the team in general let the foot off the pedal towards the end which lead to the loss, but at the same time if they are tired it's understandable, especially considering we have Atletico in 3 days.

39-match unbeaten run, Madrid defeats Barca in Camp Nou and some Barca fans are quick to blame iblame their team.

Man for man, Barcelona is way superior to madrid. This is mainly down to an established philosophy. Players and coaches are changed at will at madrid.
El Clasicos always serve as a litmus test for Madrid; they let madrid know if the victories against the scrub teams were real indications of their improvements or were just mere illusions, like they have always been.
Barcelona is light years ahead of Madrid in terms of an established style of play and even if you swap the first XI, Barca will still trounce Madrid.

This means that every time madrid has played against Barca, dey have been far from perfect, closer to average with a blizzard of factors militating against them - Injuries, uncertainty in terms of tactics, unfit players, new coach, new playing style and what-nots.

Hence, whenever Barca has played Madrid, dey have always played against a team with a very sketchy philosophy with tactical errors and gaps waiting to be exploited by a perfect Barca.

But now, Madrid defeats Barcelona, and some Barca fans are all about how Barca flopped.
I don't agree.

Madrid abandonded their aggressive marking and ceded possession to Barca because when Barca play their possession game, it is easier to read the predictability of the tactics than the unpredictability of the genius of MSN. Going all out against barca would leave teams in situations where they lose their shape on the defense and on top of that, have to deal with an intuitive MSN (futility).
That was a calculated decision by Madrid, not an error from Barca.

I saw Barca do what they do to other teams, they only difference was that they were up against a more disciplined team that blocked out their passing lines and a team that could pose a serious threat if Barca lost the ball.
So the tactics was 'its better to keep possession and wait patiently for cracks which will eventually come, than to take risks and let them get a sniff of the ball'. The cracks did come, but were not enough.

In conclusion, Barca have always had the advantage over madrid in every clasico - established philosophy, better team spirit, fitter players and even better players. But this time around, Madrid had a fit first eleven and countered Barca's tactics.

Barca can point to the individual error from Suarez when he missed a goal, but Madrid can also point to the fact that ramos made an individual error which freed up neymar, or that Neymar and Suarez were offside for the goal kick that led to the chance

Barca can also complain about how ramos felled messi on the edge of the box, but madrid can counter that with bale's incorrectly dissallowed goal.

Madrid was far from perfect with individual errors and misplaced passes flying everywhere.
The match was more about countering barca than being madrid. madrid accepted barca's superiority.

Barca was barca, but madrid found them out today.
Madrid could get trounced next el clasico, but let them have this one.

its not some barca fans its just one individual who loves attention by talking in Mourinho style

I agree completely what shadexticos said. but you forgot to add that team was in "energy saving mode". this completely changes value of every tactics and everything. in such mode you never know if it was great madrid tactics or bad barca tactics

We are 2-0-2 against RM since Enrique take over and 3 out of the 4 games we've played sh!t (4-0 being the only good game).

Anyways our performances has been crap for a few games now. This needs to be addressed.

39 game unbeaten run has ended = the world has ended according to Barca fans.

One odd game changes nothing. It can happen, bad days happen.

We will still win the leauge and CdR. Not sure about CL, could be difficult.

alexjanosik wrote:
So you agree with me but dont agree with me.
Worked for 60 minutes. What game were you watching? Madrid had the better chances and we created jack.What did Messi create all game? He was the worst player on our team.
We didnt dominate jack and barely created any chances.

If you truly believe that I take back what I said about you not being clueless. Didn't dominate jack? I'm honestly stunned anyone with eyes could come to that conclusion. The first 60 minutes was all Barca. Completely. Utterly. It was boring. Madrid didn't create a single chance in the first half. Not one!

Meanwhile if the referee had eyes and Suarez could finish you would've been 2-0 up after 30 minutes and Madrid would be a man down. You completely controlled the midfield. Completely dictated the play. I said I agree that when you started to break down it originated from the vacancy on the right wing. I completely agree with your analysis on that. But it only became an issue 60-70 minutes in when Rakitic started to tire. Before that the gamble was working and Madrid were the ones who hadn't created jack. Honestly if you don't see this I would suggest you watch the game again, at least the first half, because it was clear as day to me and everyone else watching that Barca were the better team for the first hour.

And you are plain wrong when you say that Neymar is as lazy as Messi. Not even close. He has defended very well for the majority of his time here and never slacks. It is only recently that he has been found to slack, no doubt influenced by Messi.
Even then he works twice as hard as Messi.

You are confusing laziness with running. Messi does not run a lot and never has. Neymar runs slightly more, but they are both equally lazy. The litmus test for me is how they behave when they lose the ball. Both of them will (9 times out of 10) shrug and turn away from the player that took the ball off them. Sometimes they will try and win it back in the first few seconds and then give up out of laziness (Messi does this more often than Neymar) but both of them are extremely lazy one-way players. Please find me just one instance where Neymar loses the ball and chases back after it. It will be harder than you think I guarantee it.

Yes, Suarez was poor but then he doesnt become a liability on the pitch like Messi does.

And the cognitive dissonance returns. Suarez wasn't a liability? His poor finishing cost you the game. Pretty sure that's the definition of being a liability

Suarez did not offer anything whatsoever in attack the entire game. He didn't create even a single half chance. Messi on the other hand had multiple world class passes that opened Madrid up, and I'm sure Harmonica will gladly supply GIFs of them if needed. There was no comparison between Suarez and Messi yesterday and if you really believe there was again you need to rewatch the match.

Your points about Enrique asking Messi to play centrally is also not true. Messi does what he does and doesnt take positional instructions. That has been proven and even Pep has said that Messi plays and goes where he wants and that the rest of the team adjusts accordingly.

Utter nonsense. When Pep told him to play on the right wing he stayed there. And it was him who decided to move him to the middle, not Messi telling the coach where he wants to play.

And again, how do you explain Messi strictly staying on the wing in almost every big game under Enrique? Why would he listen to his coach then and disobey him now? And even if he did why didn't Enrique change anything? Again this wasn't Messi just deciding to wander into the middle. It was very clear from the kickoff he was playing as a fourth midfielder and Alves was playing higher than usual to occupy the right wing.

If Enrique was smart when he saw Rakitic was tiring he should've brought Roberto on for Suarez and switched to 4-4-2. Suarez was contributing nothing, Roberto would've helped Rakitic so they could each do one job instead of two, and Messi and Neymar would hit Madrid on the counter.

Like I said, you need to rewatch the game. And if after rewatching the game you still think Messi is at fault I recommend a psychologist.

Cut the insults please. No need for that.You are confusing possession with dominating. They willingly conceeded the ball and looked to hit on the break. It is you who needs to watch the game again.
Please elaborate on all the chances we had and all the saves Navas had to make as you seem to think we dominated.
They had the much better chances and also had a legitimate goal disallowed.
And the fact that you think Neymar is lazy and is close to Messi in effort tells me that you dont watch our games or are clueless.
Neymar has done an excellent job defensively and is one of the reasons the system works. Without the ball he drops to form a 4 across midfield most of the time. He helps out Iniesta and Alba on the left flank. He presses far more than Messi. It is a no contest. He is ten times better defensively than Messi. I suggest you watch the games by taking the Messi fanboy glasses off.

Missing chances doesnt mean Suarez is a liability. He got Ramos sent off, hustled all game, won freekicks and was busy throughout. A liability is a primadonna who lets others do his dirty work and is a one trick pony and is useless when that one trick doesnt work. Remind of the last time the so called GOAT was actually relevant in a Clasico. Practically useless for the last 6,7 Clasico's and the one time he doesnt play, we trounce them.

Messi moves where he wants. He didnt play wide all the time in all big games. If you think Enrique has any control over Messi, you are deluded.

Take Suarez off, play 4-4-2 and play on the counter with Messi and Neymar
What a comical suggestion. It has proven beyond doubt by now that Messi is a very poor counter player. He wont make runs. He will just stay where he is and expect ball to feet. Kind of the opposite of a counter attacking player.
We are good on the counter nowadays because of Suarez and Neymar. They are both excellent counter attacking players.
If 4-4-2 and a counter attacking steup is what you are suggesting, then Messi should be taken off and not Suarez.

Just shows how clueless you are. Stop embarrassing yourself.

I agree with Alex here.

Don't know the extent to which Enrique has control over Messi, but tactically Messi in the center is problematic.

It used to work when he was a false 9, but we've been found out on that front. Him going out to the right was required tactically and we got really fortunate that someone like Suarez has moved into the center.

The problem is very much also because of the way we have been accustomed to seeing Messi - always giving his best, fighting for every ball. I mean, who hasn't seen that Messi is a dog video?

Coming to the match though, Messi in the centre meant that Rakitic went to the right. This meant Marcelo could actually bomb forward. It wasn't Ronaldo (alone) bombing forward that caused us problems. Him alone isn't that big a deal, Alves could handle him and so could Pique. The issue became when Marcelo was given this huge freedom to come ahead. And why would he not? If there is no threat of Messi on that side, why shouldn't he come ahead?

Also, while Rakitic might be an above average player, he is still bound to lose the ball more times than Messi.

Now I wouldn't blame it all on Messi. Neymer, our "next superstar", did nothing to cover himself in glory. I'm sorry but he has to do better against Carvajal. I mean around that age Pedro was owning Maicon in a very clutch match against Inter. Those are the sort of performances that Neymar should be putting in, and he wasn't at all contributing.

I won't fault Suarez as much as some people have over here. He was sub par, definitely. But even in bad form he doesn't end up contributing nothing (which is what Neymar & a few others did).

Overall, I'm not too bothered if it's a one-off. The thing though is that such defeats can either be one-offs or signs that we peaked too early in the season. I sincerely hope it's not the latter.

Also, it'll be very interesting to see what happens if we meet Real in the CL. They have some belief and Zidane has breathing space. Could actually be a bizarre turning point for them this match.

I've seen Messi stay on the wing a lot more often against smaller teams than he did against Madrid. What are the chances Lucho told him to stay more central to give a 4v3 against Madrid's midfield?

I concede, those chances are there. In which case, that really didn't work out either.

I mean whether he did it of his own accord or whether Lucho asked him to stay central, the tactic didn't pay off.

alexjanosik wrote:Cut the insults please. No need for that.

...

Just shows how clueless you are. Stop embarrassing yourself.

(:

As for chances:

10' - Suarez misses an empty net
18' - Messi goes close from a freekick
20' - Rakitic has a great shot, Navas has to make a super save
24' - Ramos lucky not to be sent off
48' - Ramos should be sent off again
54' - Navas must make a world class save from a Messi chip
56' - Pique scores

In all of this time, Madrid didn't have a single good chance. Not one. How you came to the conclusion they were the better team is beyond me.

As for the idea of playing 4-4-2. It was clear Barca needed reinforcement in the midfield as they were being picked apart more frequently with Raktiic tiring. Suarez was offering absolutely nothing, whereas Messi despite walking around had created numerous chances. It is a no brainier who should be sacrificed.

As for Messi moving "wherever he wants" I can think of no better example than the Atletico game in January of last season (you won 3-1). Watch that and then tell me with a straight face that Messi goes where he wants. One of the most disciplined performances from a winger you'll see. You still haven't addressed the fact that Messi started the game right from the kickoff in the middle and Enrique did nothing to change it. You are either purposely ignoring this or missed it. Either way you should rewatch the game. If you want I can post clips that clearly show this.

CM Pep wrote:I concede, those chances are there. In which case, that really didn't work out either.

I mean whether he did it of his own accord or whether Lucho asked him to stay central, the tactic didn't pay off.

I agree it didn't pay off. But it was working for an hour and only stopped working due to fatigue. I wouldn't blame Messi or Enrique tbh, but if you are going to fault someone it has to be the manager. I can think of no other reason Messi would stay in the middle so diligently.

Oh come on.  Madrid had:
-  24th minute - CR cuts in from the left into the box and gets a hard shot off that the keeper punches out
-  25th minute - Bale takes a free shot from the left side inside the box the goes high
-  30th minute - CR freekick that goes high
-  42nd minute - Benzema misses volley
-  51st minute - Modric shoots and is deflected by Bale in the box and luckily goes straight at keeper

It's just because we sat back and forfeited possession that everyone thinks we had no chances.  We had them.  Barca's possession was mostly sterile.  And let's not forget the Bale disallowed goal if you're thinking about complaining about Ramos not being sent off.