Re: Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player?

by rwo power Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:25 pm

On the other hand, how do you explain that in La Liga the goal quotas seem to be much higher than in other leagues for quite some of the star strikers?

For example, you can't say that Argentina is such a bad team, but still Messi only scores half the goals there, similar with CR7, the latter scoring far more at Real than with both Portugal and ManUtd.

by futbol Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:37 pm

rwo power wrote:On the other hand, how do you explain that in La Liga the goal quotas seem to be much higher than in other leagues for quite some of the star strikers?

For example, you can't say that Argentina is such a bad team, but still Messi only scores half the goals there, similar with CR7, the latter scoring far more at Real than with both Portugal and ManUtd.

Argentina is not a bad team only on paper. In reality they are completely miscoached (Maradona being assigned coaching duties, let that sink in for a minute) and the one time they had a decent coach in Sabella who carried them to the WC final they unluckily had their entire first choice offense injured in Agüero and Di Maria with Higuain coming back from injury and being completely off form.

Portugal is even worse. Who is their striker? Hugo Almeida? Laughing

Not even compareable to a star-sudded side like Madrid. Obviously Ronaldo doesn't score as much.

by rwo power Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:36 pm

Well, Argentina was always considered a contender for either World Cup or Copa America in the last years, so you can't exactly talk them down like that.

As for CR7 - well, that does underline that he only managed to score that much because about all of Real tries to supply him with assists. If he has to work a bit on his own, he is no better than other normal good strikers.

Oh, and what about Eto'o, Ibra, Suárez, Huntelaar, or Drogba? Their NTs are certainly not better than Portugal and still they manage to score considerably more.

by Pseudo Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:55 pm

Fully fit Robben is the answer.

So Bale gets a shout out and not Costa? scratch

by rwo power Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:13 pm

By the way, as I looked up the scoring data for selected top strikers and already had the numbers in one place, I decided to put them into a LibreOffice Calc table as that way one has a better overview, doesn't need to calculate the quotients manually and one can sort the table according to whatever one likes:

Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player? - Page 4 Th-sco11

Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player? - Page 4 Th-sco11

This table only looks at the goals scored in the 5 European top leagues and the NTs, so that one can better compare things and doesn't have fancy 2nd leagues or leagues outside of Europe etc.

Sorted by NT scoring:
Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player? - Page 4 Th-sco12

Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player? - Page 4 Th-sco12

If you want me to add other players, just give me some suggestions. They just need to have played in their NT and at least in one of the European Top5 Leagues and should be considered more or less good goal scorers.

by El Messico Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:24 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Come on Germans, be real here.

Muller cannot create for himself and certainly not for anyone else with the ball. The biggest reason you (Bayern) lost to Barca was exactly that, you didnt have guys who could individually destabilise the defence and cause displacement of defenders, with the ball. You had the guys who could do that WITHOUT the ball, but you need and needed someone who can do it with the ball too.

Muller is a devastating player when you have other players who can do that destabilisation and alot of Mullers biggest assets (off ball movement to, never using more touches than he needs) are underrated, but he is no Neymar.

Muller is not a special player, he like the ultimate "role player".

So what? Why does being 'the ultimate role player' (whatever that's supposed to mean) not make him special too?

Once again, one certain set of attributes (and YOU be real here for a second, basically it boils down to dribbling lol) is highlighted as what makes a player 'good' or 'special' over other attributes.
You seem to think if someone makes a great run and his teammate finds him with a pass, the chance was created by the passer, instead of by both.

But that's not the point, and neither is this about 'Germans'.

The point is that this notion which is now being shoved down everyone's throat by a certain set of fans, that Neymar is the 'established' second best player in the world, is ridiculous.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not the one coming here saying Müller is 'better' than Neymar. I'm not the one saying Müller is the 'second best player' in the world. That would be uncalled for.

I'm just pointing out that there's no ground whatsoever to claim Neymar is now clearly, 'truthfully', or 'objectively' as Bankz words it, a better player than, say, Robben, Aguero, Müller, Lewandowski, or others.

Obviously you guys watch Barca regularly and thus are enthused about Neymar's performances. I watch Bayern regularly so I highlight my players.
Other clubs are playing too, and their players perform great week in week out too.

The effort to put down and engrave in stone that someone is 'the best' might have been reasonable in Messi's case, it's not in Neymars, yet.
And it's an annoying detour of what football is about in any case.

Again, obviously Neymar is a fantastic player and already among the very best. Better than cr7? Sure, why not, at least in my opinion.
But that's not enough for some people.
He needs to be the 'established best after Messi', as if noone else existed.

And if the list above is too much Bayern bias for your taste, then let me rephrase:
Why should we consider Neymar as 'clearly', or 'established', a better attacker than Suarez?
That's absolutely unprovable, merely hype and propaganda.

Now futbol jumped on this tongue-in-cheek, or let's say keeping his options open to declare it tongue-in-cheek as he always does.
Pretty sure he'd be ready to throw Neymar under the bus given the occasion just as well.

But I can see monomanic fanboys like Bankz spamming this forum, and probably forums all over the world, with this 'best player' obsession for the foreseeable future, and I'm merely trying to push back early on.

Neymar has been the 2nd best player of 2015. Over the past few years, only no. 1 and 2 are fixed in world football. The rest of the positions are all transient and depend on year-to-year performances. So it's not unreasonable to declare Neymar as the 3rd best footballer in the world OVERALL based on 2015 performances. But given Ronaldo's seeming decline and Neymar's continuing progress, upgrading him to 2nd overall is not going to be much longer and in the eyes of many has happened already.

I don't get why you are so concerned about Neymar being called the 2nd best when you don't even believe in the concept of ranking players (beyond placing Messi as the best)

by El Messico Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:32 pm

rwo power wrote:On the other hand, how do you explain that in La Liga the goal quotas seem to be much higher than in other leagues for quite some of the star strikers?

Because the midfielders in the Spanish league are/have been better than their counterparts in the German league or other leagues. Also because the teams in the Spanish league that all those strikers joined are better.

This is nothing ground-breaking. Aguero's goal record, for instance, improved after going to a better team with better midfielders in Man City (compared to 2011 Atleti).

by rwo power Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:46 pm

@El Messico

Well, but then the question is - are the strikers really better then or would any other striker be able to improve that much too, just because he only gets more service?

Especially with CR7 one could then surmise that he is actually a completely normal striker (his numbers both in NT and PL are average among the top strikers), but at Real he excels only because he hogs all the service available.

by El Messico Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:58 pm

No way to find out until players actually move leagues or to better teams. We can only judge based on what has happened, not what could happen if players did/didn't switch.

There is a Pacific Ocean level gap between CR7 and a "normal" striker's numbers. We can safely conclude that his improvement is not just because he switched teams or hogs all the service.

by Pseudo Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:03 pm

You are now criticising Neymar for scoring agaisnt weaker teams and calling this statpadding? When Messi scores agaisnt a weak team, you include this in his stats gloriously, and state he did this, he did that.

You are so biased it is embarrassing, do you realise on this forum you have zero creditbility as everyone knows you are so biased. It gets more and more embarassing, do you also do the same on a One Direction forum aswell?

I am sticking up for all players who are not Messi but have played with you percieve as a rival against him, Neymar, Iniesta, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc.... these poor fellows need a voice against your propoganda.

As I have said before, I would love to see Messi views on your comments, he seems a level headed pretty decent bloke and would no doubt find you a bit disturbing and probaly moronic.

AD78 in response to Harmonica aka BadaBing.

by Jafo Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:36 pm

Pseudo wrote:
You are now criticising Neymar for scoring agaisnt weaker teams and calling this statpadding? When Messi scores agaisnt a weak team, you include this in his stats gloriously, and state he did this, he did that.

You are so biased it is embarrassing, do you realise on this forum you have zero creditbility as everyone knows you are so biased. It gets more and more embarassing, do you also do the same on a One Direction forum aswell?

I am sticking up for all players who are not Messi but have played with you percieve as a rival against him, Neymar, Iniesta, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc.... these poor fellows need a voice against your propoganda.

As I have said before, I would love to see Messi views on your comments, he seems a level headed pretty decent bloke and would no doubt find you a bit disturbing and probaly moronic.

AD78 in response to Harmonica aka BadaBing.

nobody really cares about statpadding. CR7 had such statpadding last season and nobody cared. people say he is not even top 3 player now. Messi mixed it with big game moments thats the reason it looks so awesome. Neymar should do it too and he is capable of doing it (without messi) , i have no doubt neymar is the only one who comes close to messi's talent at the moment. no hazard, no bale or not even CR7 has this talent. Only Neymar has it. with time he can show it. but at the moment its only statpadding against weak teams. you should accept it. When he mixes it with big game performances (not just tapins from messi's diagonal passes) then we can say he is not just statpadding he rules the world

by rwo power Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:05 pm

El Messico wrote:There is a Pacific Ocean level gap between CR7 and a "normal" striker's numbers. We can safely conclude that his improvement is not just because he switched teams or hogs all the service.

Actually that huge difference between CR7 and other strikers exists only in the Spanish league. In his NT and in the Premier League (with ManUtd being the top club that even won the CL that time and CR7 being top scorer in the PL), CR7 had an average of 0.447 and 0.427 goals/game, which is not that extraordinary if you look at the data of the other strikers in the table I compiled.

by McAgger Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:06 pm

17 votes for Suarez Proud

GL has spoken.

by Myesyats Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:11 pm

Make it 18 Hames Proud

by S Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:27 pm

I can't believe Müller is at the center of this discussion.Unbelievable tbh.Wow stats has really blinded people.

Give it another 6 months and Karim Bellarabi might make it here too, who knows (:

by Hapless_Hans Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:27 pm

Better not talk down Bellarabi. As opposed to Götze, let alone Müller, here is a player that might actually be gettable for Juve :coffee:

by Lucifer Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:31 pm

linetty wrote:Make it 18 Hames

Make it 19 :coffee:

by rwo power Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:42 pm

Just wait until Suárez bites again...

by jibers Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:04 pm

I agree with both Hans and Dani tbh. Hans I understand where you are coming from. People are to quick to rank people. I feel this is a result of FIFA making the Ballon D'or some sort of spectacle, where as before it was just a quiet event and noone really gave a shit.

I do have to say Dani is right in his description of Muller. I think Neymar is better simply because he is better at unlocking teams whereas Muller depends on his team a lot more (they both do tbh Laughing

)

Comparing them is irrelevant as they are both doing well for their teams. That 1 vs 1 ability is what Muller lacks for me, still he is a very good player. Bar Messi I don't think there is a 2nd best at anything. Abstract concepts in a team game.

by Bankz Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:04 pm

Make it 21!!!

by RealGunner Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:10 pm

It's not fully FIFA who made Balon d'Or a spectacle. People and specially social media have turned it into Oscars of football really.

by jibers Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:12 pm

RealGunner wrote:It's fully FIFA who made Balon d'Or a spectacle. People and specially social media have turned it into Oscars of football really.

It's a joke. I think it should be scrapped.

by El Messico Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:21 pm

rwo power wrote:
El Messico wrote:There is a Pacific Ocean level gap between CR7 and a "normal" striker's numbers. We can safely conclude that his improvement is not just because he switched teams or hogs all the service.
Actually that huge difference between CR7 and other strikers exists only in the Spanish league. In his NT and in the Premier League (with ManUtd being the top club that even won the CL that time and CR7 being top scorer in the PL), CR7 had an average of 0.447 and 0.427 goals/game, which is not that extraordinary if you look at the data of the other strikers in the table I compiled.

In the PL, he only played as a forward/attacking winger in 07/08. He scored 42 in 49 games (ratio of 0.86). Also, by 2007 he was only 22 years old. Prior to that, he was a right midfielder in a 4-4-2. In 08/09, he was once again shifted back to the wing full-time (though he did keep a few of his attacking moves) following Berbatov's arrival. At that point, United had 3 strikers - Rooney, Tevez and Berbatov, in addition to youngsters like Federico Macheda. This is why Fergie put him back on the wing.

With Portugal, he's just playing with a mediocre team. At both of his club teams, CR7 flourishes when the CF is good and can link-up play, leaving Ronaldo with the goal-scoring burden. Portugal has possibly the worst strikers of all the well-known teams. Inspite of that, he's the top scorer all of European competitions (tournaments and qualifiers iirc)

by rwo power Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:24 pm

But this does actually underline what I'm trying to say all the time - it is only a matter of tactics that CR7 can score that much, while in German teams the focus is more onto distributing the attacking power, what leads to a bigger number of scorers, but less goals for single players.

by Bankz Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:31 pm

Pseudo wrote:
You are now criticising Neymar for scoring agaisnt weaker teams and calling this statpadding? When Messi scores agaisnt a weak team, you include this in his stats gloriously, and state he did this, he did that.

You are so biased it is embarrassing, do you realise on this forum you have zero creditbility as everyone knows you are so biased. It gets more and more embarassing, do you also do the same on a One Direction forum aswell?

I am sticking up for all players who are not Messi but have played with you percieve as a rival against him, Neymar, Iniesta, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc.... these poor fellows need a voice against your propoganda.

AD78 in response to Harmonica aka BadaBing.

Lol, what did u really expect from the fraud? U needed to see him blushing and spamming this site with gifs & whoscored stats when messi scored a hattrick against this same rayo last season. but Neymar scores four from behind with a perfect 10 performance and its become stat padding, looool.

Neymar has 10 goals and 6 assists in 7 games, so, I'm just wondering what he has to say when he sees that his bible whoscored has rated Neymar as the best player in the whole of europe this season while being the man of the match in 6 out of 7 games averaging a performance of 9.3 in that time.
He's the most creative player in the league, the best player, the top scorer, has the most dribbles, has most key passes (all without messi). Proud

Thought he said Neymar only feeds off messis immaculate magic against teams? Thought he said Neymar can't create?

I tought whoscored and squawka were the most logical, objective and the most unbiased soccer site for rating players? Or have u abandoned your bible hamonica? Proud

by Blue Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:42 pm

RealGunner wrote:It's not fully FIFA who made Balon d'Or a spectacle. People and specially social media have turned it into Oscars of football really.

Issue is fanboism, I have to say some football fans are worse then twilight fangirls.

Embarrassing really.

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Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player?

After Messi and Dishmar, who is the 3rd best (attacking) player in the world?