Yes, the one league squad that finished 3rd and lost the title by 18 points. Best EVER league squad smh

Team and squad are different.

Where a team finished and judging the squad based on that?

Barca had a better squad than Madrid when UGuardiola took over.

Cruijf wrote:

Blue wrote:I would really like to know how Bayern were underachievers before Pep appointment. Shocking to call a side that played in 2 CL finals in 3 seasons as underachievers and a choke artists.

What does that make current Bayern under Pep tho?

We have to look at Bayern in JANUARY 2013 I.e when Pep said yes.

In the last three years, they had choked in the CL final twice, lost the title to Dortmund twice, and been hammered in the cup final by Dortmund once. Heynckes in fact seriously considered stepping down at the end of the 11-12 season. They weren't considered this "stacked" super team, just a bunch of talented chokers.

I am looking at it from January 2013 Pov

Inter was heavy favorite against Bayern, that is not choking and Bayern were a surprise that season by many to make it to the final. That is like calling Juve or Alti a flop in recent years by losing in the final.

Chelsea were one of those rare underdog magical run you see in sports sometimes. Chelsea also bested Prime Barca under Pep, somethings are just meant to be.

Give Dortmund more credit, they were great side and accomplished a lot in that time frame. Give more credit then calling Bayern underachievers.

I guess it is Hunan nature to cast Blame rather then give praise.

I ask again by your standard calling Bayern underachievers, what does that make the current Bayern under pep?

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Blue wrote:I would really like to know how Bayern were underachievers before Pep appointment. Shocking to call a side that played in 2 CL finals in 3 seasons as underachievers and a choke artists.

What does that make current Bayern under Pep tho?

I could search back about 150.000 goallegacy posts calling us eternal chokers etc

I love this forum but level headed and rationale for the majority is not is this forum strongpoint, although laughter, banter, and trolling is another story.

who needs coaching when you have messi/xavi/iniesta etc etc.
i mean that worked out so well for when we had problems with tito and when martino took over

That's a valid question lol

If making 2 CL finals is called choking then what does that make pep who is getting destroyed in semis?

When Pep agreed to take over nobody thought they would end up winning the treble 4 months later.... anyone who says otherwise is a damn liar

I'd argue that his time at Bayern would be looked at very differently if they hadn't won the CL.... plus the expectations people have for him are damn ridiculous.

If he doesn't win the CL he's considered a failure, can you say that about any other coach in the history of football? nope.

And who cares how good a squad is when they ain't winning anything?

Adit wrote:Debate is weather he had the best league squads when he took over both teams which is yes. He then successfully destroyed that goat Bayern into a team that can be destroyed by anyone on their day.

This post very clearly illustrates what advantage a manager gets for taking over treble winners, and how great that is for his reputation.

He can win the league and reach CL semis in his first two seasons, start the 3rd season with record 10 wins in a row and yet be accused of 'destroying' the team and turn into a team that 'can be destroyed by anyone on their day'.
'Anyone on their day' presumably refering to top form Real and Barca.

Shit for brains.

I'd like to see who some people even consider top managers to be in this thread lmao.
i mean hell it must be Mourinho who scrubs it hard in 15th place in the league and doesn't even reach semifinals most of the time
or lets talk about that guy who can carry lower teams so he must be a GOAT Moyes

pep's expecations : treble or flop sounds legit.

Donuts wrote:I'd like to see who some people even consider top managers to be in this thread lmao.

Semifinal argument. When mourinho was making semis consequently he was made fun of it. Remember the semi special one threads that was with squad that never reached semi for 8 years. While guardiola gets destroyed in semis with team that previously won CL and reached 3 CL final that is s success... Oh the judging meters.

Mourinho in three years in the most expensive squad in football?
no cl
1 la liga
1 copa de rey.

simeone did better than him lmao in a much inferior team

Btw has any team accomplished what Bayern did? 3 CL finals 4 seasons?

Truely remarkable run, before Pep destroyed it.

Winter is Coming wrote:

El Gunner wrote:
Anyhow.
HOW can anyone dislilke Pep?
What's the reason behind that? What has he done besides being a f'ing successful coach that experiments and promotes hard work?
@srigooner

There a very few who actually dislike him, but others I believe just don't like his playing style more so then not liking him as a coach.

As an Arsenal fan, I can't complain too much about his playing style. It's not too different from what we have seen at Arsenal, though I am happy to see that we have since evolved to a more healthy mix of deciding when to play possession and when to sit off, instead of boring opponents to death with passes.

I may well be among the few who actually dislike him, despite all his success and prowess as a manager. My reasons are non-footballing. I respect his achievements, but just do not like him as an individual - just as I dislike a lot of people associated with the years when Barcelona hierarchy saw us as their feeder club, more so with the constant highly disrespectful rhetoric. We still see instances of that, when it comes to Bellerin, when some sections almost assume that he will 'return home to Barcelona' because of 'DNA'. I also dislike the whole 'suffering' and 'kidnapped by Arsenal and held against his will' rhetoric, which was all a massive media campaign to unsettle a player who was at that time the captain of the Arsenal team.

I have nothing against Barca fans, as individuals, and naturally they have a right to feel proud and possessive about things related to their club. However, it is immature to ignore that there is a line between banter and outright disrespect - and that line was crossed. I can not just look past that, because I have the same right to expect my club to be treated with respect.

Feel free to disagree with my views on the subject. Anyway, it is not related to the current topic of this thread.

Blue wrote:Btw has any team accomplished what Bayern did? 3 CL finals 4 seasons?

Truely remarkable run, before Pep destroyed it.

Manchester United.

srigooner wrote:

Winter is Coming wrote:

El Gunner wrote:
Anyhow.
HOW can anyone dislilke Pep?
What's the reason behind that? What has he done besides being a f'ing successful coach that experiments and promotes hard work?
@srigooner

There a very few who actually dislike him, but others I believe just don't like his playing style more so then not liking him as a coach.

As an Arsenal fan, I can't complain too much about his playing style. It's not too different from what we have seen at Arsenal, though I am happy to see that we have since evolved to a more healthy mix of deciding when to play possession and when to sit off, instead of boring opponents to death with passes.

I may well be among the few who actually dislike him, despite all his success and prowess as a manager. My reasons are non-footballing. I respect his achievements, but just do not like him as an individual - just as I dislike a lot of people associated with the years when Barcelona hierarchy saw us as their feeder club, more so with the constant highly disrespectful rhetoric. We still see instances of that, when it comes to Bellerin, when some sections almost assume that he will 'return home to Barcelona' because of 'DNA'. I also dislike the whole 'suffering' and 'kidnapped by Arsenal and held against his will' rhetoric, which was all a massive media campaign to unsettle a player who was at that time the captain of the Arsenal team.

I have nothing against Barca fans, as individuals, and naturally they have a right to feel proud and possessive about things related to their club. However, it is immature to ignore that there is a line between banter and outright disrespect - and that line was crossed. I can not just look past that, because I have the same right to expect my club to be treated with respect.

Feel free to disagree with my views on the subject. Anyway, it is not related to the current topic of this thread.

I understand your point, but why take that out on Pep? Do you hate Messi as much? Xavi who led the campaign for Fabregas? Iniesta?

At the end of the day I can understand how Arsenal fans feel with the way our club has acted with some of their players, however that is football today unfortunately, the clubs that have some power will use it. We also once upon time use to lose our star players, even to rivals. Our boards know little to nothing football related as we know and look at the dodgy business they have been associated with recently. The vast majority of fans I know want them out and how they won again god only knows that.

You make it sound like he couldn't have succeeded with the previous team. Let's not forget that even though he made those choices the 3 main pieces to what made Barcelona so dangerous were Iniesta, Xavi and Messi, but first and foremost Messi who was coming into his prime. Give any team in the world Messi and they are likely to challenge for titles. Then of course he had guys like Eto'o, Puyol, Busquets (who was already there btw, just young and coming up), etc.

Ronaldinho and Deco went because they were older and obviously losing steam quickly (especially Ronaldinho because of his lifestyle, which was really too bad). Xavi and Iniesta were already recognized as two of the better players in the world, and both were already regulars with lots of responsibility.

Even though they didn't win the league the previous 2 years it's a bit facetious. They had one down year before Pep came in, the previous year they only lost the title on head to head to RM they had the same number of points (less losses) and a much better goal differential. Then the years before that of course they won the CL and the league (twice). Some of the changes Pep made were brilliant obviously, but the core of what made that team click was already in place and I still think a bunch of managers would have been able to work wonders with the type of talent that was already available (again, not a slight on Pep, he did very well).

If I told you today that someone was going to take over a team that had a prime Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Eto'o and Henry and a young Messi and Busquets coming up you would also think that the team was readymade for them. How much influence Pep really had over that particular fact will never be known because he was there when it happened.

Anyway this debate is kind of pointless because you still have to be a great coach regardless to make a very talented team perform as well as Barcelona and Bayern have, and to win CLs. There are plenty of very talented teams (obviously the talent he's had to work with is on a bit of a higher tier though). I was just expressing that I'd like to see him move to a team that doesn't have the most talented squad already -- underperforming or not.

Winter is Coming wrote:
I understand your point, but why take that out on Pep? Do you hate Messi as much? Xavi who led the campaign for Fabregas? Iniesta?

At the end of the day I can understand how Arsenal fans feel with the way our club has acted with some of their players, however that is football today unfortunately, the clubs that have some power will use it. We also once upon time use to lose our star players, even to rivals. Our boards know little to nothing football related as we know and look at the dodgy business they have been associated with recently. The vast majority of fans I know want them out and how they won again god only knows that.

I don't hate any of them - that is a strong word. However, I do condemn how each of them played their role in the whole farce. That's why I said my reasons are non-footballing - more to do with their behavior as individuals over those two years. It would have not taken much for any of them to douse all the BS with one interview saying 'He's their captain. What will happen will happen between the clubs. It is not my right to comment on it, and neither should you.' Instead, they encouraged the whole thing. I admire their footballing achievements and dislike them as individuals. I can live with that dichotomy when it is to do with other clubs. It will be rather difficult for me to find peace, if a person I see an individual I don't respect take over the reign from Arsene Wenger - who I immensely respect as an individual.

Curtinho wrote:You make it sound like he couldn't have succeeded with the previous team. Let's not forget that even though he made those choices the 3 main pieces to what made Barcelona so dangerous were Iniesta, Xavi and Messi, but first and foremost Messi who was coming into his prime. Give any team in the world Messi and they are likely to challenge for titles. Then of course he had guys like Eto'o, Puyol, Busquets (who was already there btw, just young and coming up), etc.

Ronaldinho and Deco went because they were older and obviously losing steam quickly (especially Ronaldinho because of his lifestyle, which was really too bad). Xavi and Iniesta were already recognized as two of the better players in the world, and both were already regulars with lots of responsibility.

Even though they didn't win the league the previous 2 years it's a bit facetious. They had one down year before Pep came in, the previous year they only lost the title on head to head to RM they had the same number of points (less losses) and a much better goal differential. Then the years before that of course they won the CL and the league (twice). Some of the changes Pep made were brilliant obviously, but the core of what made that team click was already in place and I still think a bunch of managers would have been able to work wonders with the type of talent that was already available (again, not a slight on Pep, he did very well).

If I told you today that someone was going to take over a team that had a prime Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Eto'o and Henry and a young Messi and Busquets coming up you would also think that the team was readymade for them. How much influence Pep really had over that particular fact will never be known because he was there when it happened.

Anyway this debate is kind of pointless because you still have to be a great coach regardless to make a very talented team perform as well as Barcelona and Bayern have, and to win CLs. There are plenty of very talented teams (obviously the talent he's had to work with is on a bit of a higher tier though). I was just expressing that I'd like to see him move to a team that doesn't have the most talented squad already -- underperforming or not.

I've always said their were too many factors to consider here.

Pep doesn't take over,

1. Would Xavi had remained?
2. Would the next coach sold Dinho/Deco or would he still find use for them? How would this have effected Iniesta?
3. Would Alves had come in?
4. Would Pique had come back?
5. How would Messi development go?
6. Henry recently said 'He is one of the best managers I've ever had. One thing that strikes me with him that you don't see, he's one of those guys who's very demanding and (the) discipline that he has is on point. You need that amount of discipline to perform on and off the field,'. That is one key aspect to his style and success, does anyone else currently have that?

The list can go on.

I do understand what your saying, but I'm one to think that not all managers will exceeded even with talent their given and not many can deal or cope with pressure and the media breathing down their back. As it goes for Pep, he can be ruthless he'll bench star players, which very few managers do today. He's coached two of the biggest club, as well has good respect from the players. He's able to develop some great players. He's not afraid to use youth players.

Perhaps Pep may succeed perhaps he may not taking more of a challenge, but at the same time, no matter what club he goes to the media and other fans will be assuming he'd bring the exact same success and as someone said early if he doesn't win the CL or league title very year many will label him as a failure/flop or if he doesn't have a good season people will question his achievements.

Manager do need players to succeeded, but not every manager will be capable to do that, so I'm not saying Pep coached scrub players

No definitely, I agree there are a lot of factors to consider and the reality is that there's no way to know how that situation would have played out. Everyone can see how successful he has been and there's no discrediting that he is a fantastic manager of top teams and I think it's a bit understated that it is not necessarily easy to manage the top players in the world all in one team.

That said it would be interesting to see what kind of manager he'd be at a team that isn't already completely stacked. A team like a Liverpool, Tottenham or Chelsea for example.

That only time will tell if he ever goes there, but with all these top clubs after him what are the chances of that happening?

If I was to make an assumption on it, I'd say it depends on what people will call as success or failure at those clubs, can Pep build? Yes he can, Can he develop? Yes he can, is he tactically good? Yes. If he manages to win lets say 1 league title and get a 1-2 champion league semi-final or final in 4 years, would that be consider a success?

the 2 years no titles thing is highly exaggerated. pep brought discipline, and messi hardly got injured anymore. they still largely dominated possession, and if not for scholes shot might have whooped utd in the semis (i think even dinho didn't play that game, and barcelona were the better side). and xavi, iniesta had found success before with aragones, so its not like he unearthed them. dani alvez had been beasting with sevilla for the better part of four years, and at madrid we had heinze starting drenthe, metzelder, gago and mahmoudu in midfield, faubert for crying out loud

even then, i've heard pundits heap praise on guardiola for messi being fit, saying he told messi to stop eating fish...diet is part of fitness, but if people believe that's the only thing or most significant thing that saw messi find fitness, then imo that's kind of bogus

my point isn't about him going to stoke, not many managers who have tasted success will want to take a step down, which is one of the main reasons i doubt he'd even consider arsenal. I've stated the bulk of my reasons in earlier posts

finally, it seems we give coaches in football way too much props. i'm not saying coaching or managing isn't important, its very important, but with what i've been reading and watching it seems like people believe some coaches just have a magic wand and everything changes....this isn't just about pep, its in the klopp to liverpool discussions, the mourinho discussions (Especially anytime he joins a new club), and now this pep thing. an nba coach has more influence on the game in comparison to footy imo, for a multitude of reasons i won't say here

he'll stay at bayern i think...if he does go to england it will probably be city, he has connections there, plus they have guys like kun and silva who he's probably familiar with in terms of their careers, and he knows yaya.

This may be a shitty thing of me, but I feel a small amount of satisfaction that Pep is making Bayern fans also go through his prima donna act.

srigooner wrote:

Winter is Coming wrote:

El Gunner wrote:
Anyhow.
HOW can anyone dislilke Pep?
What's the reason behind that? What has he done besides being a f'ing successful coach that experiments and promotes hard work?
@srigooner

There a very few who actually dislike him, but others I believe just don't like his playing style more so then not liking him as a coach.

As an Arsenal fan, I can't complain too much about his playing style. It's not too different from what we have seen at Arsenal, though I am happy to see that we have since evolved to a more healthy mix of deciding when to play possession and when to sit off, instead of boring opponents to death with passes.

I may well be among the few who actually dislike him, despite all his success and prowess as a manager. My reasons are non-footballing. I respect his achievements, but just do not like him as an individual - just as I dislike a lot of people associated with the years when Barcelona hierarchy saw us as their feeder club, more so with the constant highly disrespectful rhetoric. We still see instances of that, when it comes to Bellerin, when some sections almost assume that he will 'return home to Barcelona' because of 'DNA'. I also dislike the whole 'suffering' and 'kidnapped by Arsenal and held against his will' rhetoric, which was all a massive media campaign to unsettle a player who was at that time the captain of the Arsenal team.

I have nothing against Barca fans, as individuals, and naturally they have a right to feel proud and possessive about things related to their club. However, it is immature to ignore that there is a line between banter and outright disrespect - and that line was crossed. I can not just look past that, because I have the same right to expect my club to be treated with respect.

Feel free to disagree with my views on the subject. Anyway, it is not related to the current topic of this thread.

Arsenal stole Cesc, Toral, Bellerin, Fran Merida from our youth ranks trying not to pay compensation, while we paid hundreds of milions for your players that in most cases weren't required.

Yet we are the bad guys and Pep has to be hated because some of his players were vocal in wanting Cesc and they pulled a prank with a Barça jersey on Cesc.

Get a grip.

free_cat wrote:

Arsenal stole Cesc, Toral, Bellerin, Fran Merida from our youth ranks trying not to pay compensation, while we paid hundreds of milions for your players that in most cases weren't required.

Yet we are the bad guys and Pep has to be hated because some of his players were vocal in wanting Cesc and they pulled a prank with a Barça jersey on Cesc.

Get a grip.

Exactly the condescending, self-righteous attitude that put me off. Arsenal and other clubs 'stole' players because of Spanish regulations giving that loophole/business opportunity. Maybe your anger is better directed there, instead of disrespecting other clubs.

And if you bothered reading my posts, I repeatedly reiterated that I do not HATE anyone, I DISLIKE the way the said individuals handled themselves.

If one rational poster here points to any of my posts on this matter as proof that I was being disrespectful or trolling or uncouth in my behaviour in any way, I will offer my apologies without a moment's hesitation. I believe that is hardly the case.

If you can't accept that people on online forums have the right to have a different opinion and express it, then you should stop getting your panties in a bunch and jog along, instead of asking me to get a grip.

lol @srigooner, I can't see how you hold anything against Pep for that. It's not like he spearheaded the media campaign to get Fabregas back to Barcelona.

A lot of petty feelings are locked away by some Arsenal fans I have come to see that stem from that time when players ditched on us, and I understand some feelings of dislike or general disgust towards some of those players, because of the way they went about their business and some of the bad things they said about the club (Arsenal) afterwards. But the way I saw it is that Cesc always made it vocal from an early time that one day he wished to return to Barcelona, and can you blame him for doing so when he just hit his prime and when Barca were dominating European football? And don't talk about loyalty, we have seen how disloyal football players can be, it's not restricted to our club.

I've moved on. I still laugh when Fabregas, Nasri, Adebayor, etc cock up, but I don't feel any sort of ill feelings towards any of them anymore it's not worth it. Even less so towards other people involved in a poverty media bullshit campaign.