I think a big problem is if a child is born into a religion which can't be legally left at a later time. If the child has the right to leave the religion when s/he has reached the age of religious maturity, that is fine - but there are religions around that enforce their membership even by pain of death, and this is something I really consider a no-go.

"Brainwashing" or whatever you want to call it, is inevitable. We are all very impressionable at young ages and have a high chance of adopting whatever views the people around us have.

This is not exclusive to religion though. There are countless examples but the easiest one is to flip it the other way. If you are raised in an atheist household, and taught that God is a fairytale, aren't you being "brainwashed"? And you can't tell me parents should refrain from passing on ANY of their religious and political views to their children, because they want what's best for them and thus want them to believe what they think is right.

At the end of the day, its not a major problem. Plenty of people leave the religion they were raised in, or change political views, or become independent from their parents in other ways. Humans may be impressionable, but we are not completely bound by the views we were raised with. Calling it " brainwashing" is a bit extreme IMO.

No idea how they do it now, I don't even remember R.E but if they stress that it's not FACT then i'm fine with it. If kids just walk in to a lesson about w/e religion, get taught it like it's a Science and walk out then it's plain wrong.

Cruijf wrote:"Brainwashing" or whatever you want to call it, is inevitable. We are all very impressionable at young ages and have a high chance of adopting whatever views the people around us have.

Which is exactly why we shouldn't teach the religions to kids as a fact.We chose it for them. They doesn't have the capacity to choose religion at that age.

This is not exclusive to religion though. There are countless examples but the easiest one is to flip it the other way. If you are raised in an atheist household, and taught that God is a fairytale, aren't you being "brainwashed"? And you can't tell me parents should refrain from passing on ANY of their religious and political views to their children, because they want what's best for them and thus want them to believe what they think is right.

Aethesist don't teach their kids there is no God. Instead they teach nothing and let their kids choose it independently.

Kids aren't interested in political views. Kids only care about politics when they are good enough to think. Which is why family has very less influence on their childs political view.

So parents want the best for them so they shoves their believes down the children's throat.Parents aren't even sure what they believes is right but they shoves it anyway. Which can and should be avoided by giving Religious education to children when they are good enough to think independently.

At the end of the day, its not a major problem. Plenty of people leave the religion they were raised in, or change political views, or become independent from their parents in other ways. Humans may be impressionable, but we are not completely bound by the views we were raised with. Calling it " brainwashing" is a bit extreme IMO.

Not a major problem? Plenty of people?

The .0000001 percentage who don't follow their parents religion are plenty?

The freedom of thought is being killed. What perfect example to it than religious education?

The .0000001 percentage who don't follow their parents religion are plenty?

citation?

Kids aren't interested in political views. Kids only care about politics when they are good enough to think. Which is why family has very less influence on their childs political view.

So parents want the best for them so they shoves their believes down the children's throat.Parents aren't even sure what they believes is right but they shoves it anyway. Which can and should be avoided by giving Religious education to children when they are good enough to think independently.

Why just limit that to religious education? Does absolutely nothing else 'kills' freedom of thought apart from forcing religion on kids?

Do you want to publish a parenting guide which every parent universally should follow? Or you just don't want them to give their kids any form of R.E but are fine with whatever else they shove down their throat?

Adit, do you actually understand the definition of brainwashed?

You compared Sepi and RWO's stories earlier and claimed they were brainwashed. They'd need to correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read, while they were certainly pushed towards religion by their families, they didn't appear to actually or actively participate in it. That's not brainwashing. If anything, that's closer to just simply being forced to conform. Just about every kid is forced to do that early on, no matter what their thoughts are. Just the way most traditional families are.

I told the school that I didn't want them to teach my kids religious education. I asked if they could have extra maths and English lessons as a replacement.

What did they say?

RealGunner wrote:What did they say?

they said that was not possible. I told them my kids would not be at school on the days they did religious education. they then said we will see what we can do. and they agreed to my sugestion

McLewis wrote:Adit, do you actually understand the definition of brainwashed?

You compared Sepi and RWO's stories earlier and claimed they were brainwashed. They'd need to correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read, while they were certainly pushed towards religion by their families, they didn't appear to actually or actively participate in it. That's not brainwashing. If anything, that's closer to just simply being forced to conform. Just about every kid is forced to do that early on, no matter what their thoughts are. Just the way most traditional families are.

Here is the Cambridge definition of brainwashing.

› to make someone ​believe something by ​repeatedly ​telling them that it is ​true and ​preventing any other ​information from ​reaching them "

Now you tell me. Giving Religious education as a fact to young kids who can't actually grasp what they are getting and making them believe the religion their parents want then to believe. You can't really compare these paragraphs?

Sepi already said he actually believed it for a while and actually feels shame for what he did. Did he got brainwashed? Absolutely.

Everyone skips the important part of the thread BTW, why not give the RE when the kids are good enough to think properly? Why the urge to grasp at infant stage?

RealGunner wrote:

The .0000001 percentage who don't follow their parents religion are plenty?

citation?

Kids aren't interested in political views. Kids only care about politics when they are good enough to think. Which is why family has very less influence on their childs political view.

So parents want the best for them so they shoves their believes down the children's throat.Parents aren't even sure what they believes is right but they shoves it anyway. Which can and should be avoided by giving Religious education to children when they are good enough to think independently.

Why just limit that to religious education? Does absolutely nothing else 'kills' freedom of thought apart from forcing religion on kids?

Do you want to publish a parenting guide which every parent universally should follow? Or you just don't want them to give their kids any form of R.E but are fine with whatever else they shove down their throat?

Do I really have to produce statistics for children who follows their parent's religion ? Really?


There are things that is being shoved into kids throats but nothing affects their future thought process and the way they form as a person than Religious education.Again the question remains unanswered, why not teach the children when they are good enough to think independently? Why the urge to force parents believes at a young age?

Do I really have to produce statistics for children who follows their parent's religion ? Really?

Yes. Since 0.0000001 sounds bullshit and you seem quite assertive with your statements so I thought you must have some sort of statistical backup? Just curious.

There are things that is being shoved into kids throats but nothing affects their future thought process and the way they form as a person than Religious education.

Once again, evidence for this? Or is that your opinion?

Again the question remains unanswered, why not teach the children when they are good enough to think independently? Why the urge to force parents believes at a young age?

Why not teach everything to kids when they are good enough to think independently? why the urge to force anything at a young age?

You are really in to argue for the sake of arguing. Hence you picking on the percentage.. How about most then? Every one knows the reality though.

Religion is not a fact. It may well be a lie. According to some religions like islam all other religions are wrong. So most people are teaching their children lies according to religions itself... That is why religious education which may well be a lie and it should only be taught after they become mature enough. Blaming others really is not an explanation for shoving some ones believes into hapless kids.

We teach children what they can understand at the time and we don't teach lies. Atleast not something that is going to affect your goal of life and way of life. We don't give small children sex education as they will never understand it. If I tell a small kid his penis is only for peeing he will believe it just like if I teach him Antichrist created this world he will believe it as well. The kids are being taught something they can never question because they don't have the mental capacity to question and people are asking what is wrong with that?

The Demon of Carthage wrote:There's a certain degree of single-mindedness in the way you approach this issue. You forbidding people from teaching their children about religion is the same as forcing religion down a child's throat.

I'm not going to tell people how to raise their children but I'm certainly going to adopt the same approach my father used with me with my kid. He's Muslim and here's what he said to me word for word:"I'm going to teach you everything there's to know about Islam, but it's up to you to choose whether to be Muslim or not."

This is the best way, in my humble opinion, to raise a child. Give them all the options and let them choose which one is best for them. Don't deprive them from it and don't force it onto them. They have the right to know and read about it. After that they can reject it or embrace it, it's up to them.

did you reject it or embrace it.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
I'm not going to tell people how to raise their children but I'm certainly going to adopt the same approach my father used with me with my kid. He's Muslim and here's what he said to me word for word:"I'm going to teach you everything there's to know about Islam, but it's up to you to choose whether to be Muslim or not."

This is the best way, in my humble opinion, to raise a child. Give them all the options and let them choose which one is best for them. Don't deprive them from it and don't force it onto them. They have the right to know and read about it. After that they can reject it or embrace it, it's up to them.

If I ever have kids, this is how I plan to do it.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:There's a certain degree of single-mindedness in the way you approach this issue. You forbidding people from teaching their children about religion is the same as forcing religion down a child's throat.

I'm not going to tell people how to raise their children but I'm certainly going to adopt the same approach my father used with me with my kid. He's Muslim and here's what he said to me word for word:"I'm going to teach you everything there's to know about Islam, but it's up to you to choose whether to be Muslim or not."

This is the best way, in my humble opinion, to raise a child. Give them all the options and let them choose which one is best for them. Don't deprive them from it and don't force it onto them. They have the right to know and read about it. After that they can reject it or embrace it, it's up to them.

Thanks for the reply but my opinion is that another guy who didn't even try to read the thread title.

I didn't say forbid parents from giving RE. I didn't tell them what to teach,I talked about when to teach. Know the difference.

Out of curiosity I have three questions for you

1. What age did you receive RE ?

2. Were you mentally mature enough to understand what you getting taught was right or wrong, fact or fiction?

3. Did you choose the same religion as your parents?

McLewis wrote:You compared Sepi and RWO's stories earlier and claimed they were brainwashed. They'd need to correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read, while they were certainly pushed towards religion by their families, they didn't appear to actually or actively participate in it. That's not brainwashing. If anything, that's closer to just simply being forced to conform. Just about every kid is forced to do that early on, no matter what their thoughts are. Just the way most traditional families are.

Yeah, "being forced to conform" is more or less the point. On the other hand, I was "forced to conform to textile design", too. Kids are always shoved into stuff they don't want to, just because grown-ups "know better".

On the other hand, the "brainwashing" part simply didn't work on me as I always found means to protest when I considered stuff really stupid, even though it resulted in comparatively bad marks in the said subjects.

Oh, and I always asked to be put into maths or natural science classes instead of having to listen to idiotic fairytales, but that didn't conform to the curriculum, so I had to endure religious education until I was 14 and left the church. Only then I could substitute that by philosophy classes.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:

Unique wrote:did you reject it or embrace it.

Well, we are three in the family. My two older brothers have rejected it already whereas me I consider myself Muslim, but I don't pray, which is kinda mandatory in Islam. I'm still trying to find out where I stand to be completely honest with you.

Adit wrote:
1. What age did you receive RE ?

I had 'the talk' with my father when I was 10.

Adit wrote:2. Were you mentally mature enough to understand what you getting taught was right or wrong, fact or fiction?

I only understood about 1% of the whole teaching at the time. It was similar to a bedtime story really, there was no brainwashing or anything.

Adit wrote:3. Did you choose the same religion as your parents?

I consider myself Muslim but I'm not a practicing Muslim.

I'd like to add something. The issue is not 'when' you teach them, it's 'how'. If you know how to teach them about religion the right way, there will be no brainwashing and no damage. I'm really glad he taught us about it. Even my atheist brothers are glad because my father knew how to teach us about it the right way and he gave us the option to choose whatever we deem best for ourselves.

Everything he taught us didn't refrain us from thinking for ourselves freely. If anything, it helped us ask more questions and try to learn about the universe as much as we can.

Religion, if taught properly, is a beautiful thing. And it doesn't matter whether you'll grow up to be religious or not, because what it does is to help you find your place later on, religious or atheist.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Everything he taught us didn't refrain us from thinking for ourselves freely. If anything, it helped us ask more questions and try to learn about the universe as much as we can.

Religion, if taught properly, is a beautiful thing. And it doesn't matter whether you'll grow up to be religious or not, because what it does is to help you find your place later on, religious or atheist.  

In my case, religious education at school was more an insult to my intelligence, I felt. The teacher we had reacted allergic to critical questions, probably because she couldn't answer them properly.

I took far more from philosophy as school subject as this was a much more educational subject that dealt with ethics, anthropology, philosophy of science, political theory, logic and religious science.

rwo power wrote:

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Everything he taught us didn't refrain us from thinking for ourselves freely. If anything, it helped us ask more questions and try to learn about the universe as much as we can.

Religion, if taught properly, is a beautiful thing. And it doesn't matter whether you'll grow up to be religious or not, because what it does is to help you find your place later on, religious or atheist.  

In my case, religious education at school was more an insult to my intelligence, I felt. The teacher we had reacted allergic to critical questions, probably because she couldn't answer them properly.

I took far more from philosophy as school subject as this was a much more educational subject that dealt with ethics, anthropology, philosophy of science, political theory, logic and religious science.

what questions did you ask.

Well, for example

- "Why is god against magic when it is obvious that Jesus works with magic to heal people?"

- "Why are the evangelists contradicting each other, if the Bible is considered the word of god - and when they were only humans writing this down, then how can it be considered the word of god?"

- "Why is Maria considered a virgin even after giving birth, because at least then she can't technically be a virgin anymore"

- "If there are intelligent alien lifeforms out there which very likely look very alien, wouldn't that mean there are either different gods that formed the different species after its own design or none at all and everything just evolved without the need of any god?"

(yeah, I have learned to read with science-fiction novels, astronomy books and books about medicine, hence I knew a bit more about such stuff than the average school kid XD)

- "Why didn't the bible god already show up to the Aztecs or Aborigines, if he originally created the world from scratch?"

- "Why are people suffering from diseases and accidents even if they are committed, pious believers?"

- "Why did god play games with the devil and allow Hiob to be tortured and made to suffer, just to placate his ego?"

Well, stuff like that. You can imagine that a normal teacher was not really prepared to deal with stuff like this. ^^

Stupid teacher. "God moves in mysterious ways" could've answered all your questions.