Liverpool v Aston Villa

I think we played good today, we used the space well and if we manage to score first goal, we would have more space in final third.

Mind you, after so much talk about so many things, we are just two points away from 4th placed Arsenal. The only problem is if we can build up on this.

Sturridge is a filthy smooth mofo Those goals were beauties.

may be now Hames can continue doing his work of making those gifs again

Sturridge is our best and most important player.

Wondering what El Cujo "I just don't rate Sturridge that high" thinks about, seeing Danny saved his favourite managers' job for another week.

What a player he is, and he's at 30% fitness now.

Wouldn't swap him for ANY striker in the league (when he's healthy)

people will tell you Henderson's red card vs. City/ Gerrard slip cost us the title 2 years ago.

but NO

Sturridge getting injured at the City game, and hence starting Chelsea game on the bench and then being at 10% fitness cost us the league IMO.

A fit Sturridge and we're definitely scoring on that black sunday.

Helmer wrote:may be now Hames can continue doing his work of making those gifs again

Had no motivation until today Think I'll do those goals

Until then check them out here
https://streamable.com/t348
https://streamable.com/uy56
https://streamable.com/pecy

He's so good

Art Morte wrote:Three points and three goals, I'll take that

I don't really blame Sakho or anyone for the 2nd goal. When a good cross like that is landing better for the center-forward than the defender, you can't always win it as the defender. Not that Sakho had a good game, he wasn't solid overall, but not blaming anyone for their 2nd goal.

I wish we stopped playing Can as a CB already. He was the most at fault for the first goal. He's not a defender, he hasn't got a defender's mind set. Switches off. I think it's stupid that Rodgers plays him as a CB just to fit him in the XI.

Anyway, the best thing besides the win was of course Sturridge's two good goals. We need him. And we needed this win.

I just watched the highlights again. The first Villa goal was completely on Can, as he did not track Gustede's run in the box. He lost track of him, and was completely shocked when the ball found Gestede's head, and subsequently the back of the net.

The second goal... While it was Sakho's mark, that was quite simply a well placed ball and poor organization from the LFC backline. I'll take the opposite approach, I'll blame everyone for that goal. Can gets pulled out of position to close down the crosser (but doesn't stop the cross), Skrtel loafs around in the middle without any real purpose, and Sakho stays at the back post too long (expecting another attacker to arrive). Sakho was at fault to an extent, but no one was without blame on that play.

As the second goal showed, I'm not sure the squad completely understand the role in the back 3 (or at least their role in transition). Despite playing the system a fair amount last season, the back three (and wingback) always seem to be at 6's and 7's when defending in transition. The two outside CBs appear confused on when they should get wide and cover and when they should stay compact and defend in the box, and Skrtel never quite seems to understand who is his mark and who he should leave for the other CBs. The result (somewhat contradictory to conventional logic) is that route one attacks are rather effective.

I was originally a fan of the idea of playing Can in a back three. I had hoped it would assist in his development as a more defensive-minded midfielder, and it may well have helped. However, his instincts simply aren't attuned for true CB play. Nothing exemplifies this more than his "clearance" that made it about 6 yards before finding Gestede's feet for a shot that really should've hit the back of the net. If we're going to insist on playing him in the back three, we should at least allow him to play in the center in a Libero role. Let him start as part of the back three, but allow him the license to step up into midfield when necessary, essentially grooming him for a single-pivot DM role.

While I'm at it, I just want to say that Sturridge once again showed his top-class ability yesterday. He was fantastic and showed us just what we'd been missing over the last season and change. His first goal...

I'm just going to pretend we paid 32.5 million for Sturridge and 15 million for Benteke.

the back 3 shit is going to cost us in the next difficult run of games. Not a single CB of three has any idea of what is going on around them. Specially against Everton it is going to be interesting because Martinez himself has played back 3 quite a number of times. So I think he would have some good ideas how to exploit the space.

Specially since the back 3 we played against Villa was with two strikers. The christmas back 3 we played last season was defensively more stable in transition compared the one we play now. The current system looks like


This little tweak did help us in terms of attack with two strikers up front and Coutinho, Milner, Clyne and Moreno helping them out around the box. On paper it looks compact but if your FBs are pressing ahead of CB line and your outer CB fail to understand the runs of the midfielders, we would get stretched against any decent side. The only way it would work is, you have to have very clear set of instructions to FBs, 3 CBs and DM about when to press and when to fall back. And one of your striker has to press one of the first midfielder who is controlling the game/releasing the ball. Yesterday, Lucas was the best defensive player on the pitch. He covered and helped Moreno on several occasions.

RealGunner wrote:He's so good

James???

Helmer wrote:Not a single CB of three has any idea of what is going on around them.

I blame this on coaching. The players appear unclear of their responsibilities, which is odd as they played the formation last season.

What really gets me about the current iteration of the 3-5-2 is the personnel and the specific variant that we are playing. As you mentioned, the current setup is:
In terms of positioning, this is effectively the same setup that Juve used to such great effect under Conte. However, we just seem to be plugging in players that nominally fit in the general positions. It's as if Rodgers has bought the DVD of some of Juve's Calcio winning seasons and is trying to replicate their setup. The thing is, we simply don't have the personnel, especially in midfield.  

Juve used two physical, B2B midfielders capable of getting forward and scoring goals. They then sat a regista behind them, and allowed him to dictate play from deep. We might be able to replicate (at a lower level of quality) the two physical, B2B mids by playing Can and Henderson. However, we're not... Due to injuries, lack of options, what-have-you, we're choosing to play a winger-come-CM (Milner) as the engine and a Spanish8 (Coutinho). Then, we've gone and sat a converted DM (and a none-too-mobile one at that) behind them. We can debate the merits of the individual players all we want. The fact is, we've replicated a working shape without replicating the responsibilities.

In attack, Juve used a pairing of one creative forward (Tevez) and one poacher (Quagliarella, Vucinic, Lorrente, etc). We... Well, let's be honest. We have no defined strategy. We're throwing whoever happens to be in-form and healthy up top and praying for goals.

In defense, Juve had 3 top-quality CBs and 2 hard-working, two-way WBs. Moreover, they set out to play in that formation, with consistent instructions and personnel from the beginning of each season. They were well-coached and knew their roles. We neither have the same level of personnel (we're playing a B2B CM at RCB for goodness sake). Moreover, our WBs don't fit the same mould. Clyne would be a good match against Lichtensteiner, but Moreno is far more attacking than Asamoah. Then, there's Buffon and Mignolet... Let's not even bother with that.

As you can see from even a basic comparison, we're doing a very poor imitation. Our midfield doesn't make sense; our attack is based on fitness rather than strategy; and our defense is make-shift at best. Moreover, if the goal really is as simple as enabling us to play two up front, then there are other ways to do it. In fact, there are other ways to do it that fit our personnel better. Even after this diatribe against the current formation (sorry for the long post), I'm not wholly against playing with a variation on the back three. Something along the lines of the following could work:

It's merely the utter lack of direction in the current setup that frustrates me.

/rant

I don't know is Rodgers consciously trying to replicate Juventus, but I agree that our 3-5-2 isn't thought through. Not from the point of personnel and not from the point of tactics.

We were playing with a back-four until the ManU game, iirc, and weren't scoring enough goals. To me, it seems like the only thinking behind the switch to 3-5-2 was that "we are not scoring enough, let's play with 3 defenders instead of 4". Because there really isn't evidence about the players fitting these current roles especially well or about tactical advantage.