Re: El Senorito - Sergio Canales

by futbol_bill Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:15 pm

The Madrid One wrote:anyways what happened to that rumor that he might start playing more deeper, i really hope we find a place for him if he shows his true worth.

His nature role, actually Spanish role is an attacking MF position. The spanish formation doesn't have a CAM, it tends to have one MF back (I wouldn't call it defensive but it's deep position and certainly capable of good starting passes e.g Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez, Sergio Busquets, Bruno and then there are 2 attacking midfielders e.g. Xavi and Iniesta or Cesc and Thiago or Cazorla and Borja Valero. Canales plays this position naturally, whereas Ozil, Kaka play right behind the forwards and sometimes even taking up a forward position.

Canales can play this CAM but his natural position is an attacking MF. Right now at Valencia they are playing Albelda as the back midfoelder and Banega and Canales as the two AM. The likely formation of the Olympic team will be Javi Martinez as the back MF with Thiago and Canales as the two AM.

So the only way he comes to Madrid as a starter (with Ozil still playing a CAM role) is to replace Alonso and Sahin taking up the deeper MF position. For what it's worth I have seen him play a few games as the deeper MF and his overall vision and passes are Xabi like, but I don't know how good his defensive play is.

by S32TABLANCA Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:28 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
Saetablanca wrote:VDB should have totally called him up for the meaningless two remaining games. If Thiago is good enough and getting enough first team experience, so is Sergio.

But what can we expect from such a coach?

Whoa, Saetablanca. Canales has great potential but he's not ready for senior team yet. Thiago is a year ahead of him. Let's just be satisfied if Canales can earn the starting position at Valencia and work on his development. His next target after Valencia will be to earn a spot on the olympic team. That won't be easy as the team that won the Olympic berth was outstanding. Canales will not only need to start and shine at Valenica but he also will have his work cut out for him to start on that team. I think he can do it, but to expect a call-up to senior team, no way at this point.

By the way I doubt if Thiago will be on the Euro team. There are just too many quality MF available. He got his call-up to lock him up for Spain (vs Brasil) and this time it's due to injuries. Also I'm not sure but there may be time conflicts between Olympics and Euro. If so Mata, Javi Martinez and Thiago will go with Olympic team.

Not sure what your beef with VDB is. We spaniards think he is the best man for the job (much better than Argones). He also did a hell of a job at Real Madrid.

I get your points, but come on. These are useless games, Spain doesnt need to win. Canales is getting more time than Thiago right now. I obviously dont think Canales should be going to the Euro, but VDB should have at least called him up by now.

As for VDB, I know he was a legend for us, but I have serious doubts in his team selections, in callups and in actual XIs. He is better than Aragones, probably the best option for Spain right now and did well for us. But he has big flaws.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Seriously, Canales walks all over Herrera, who is injured by the way, and he is benching Parejo who was on the bench for Spain u21.

Bar injury, if he keeps it up and some, Canales is walking into that team.

Hehe, the former hater has finally been converted. Very Happy

futbol_bill wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:anyways what happened to that rumor that he might start playing more deeper, i really hope we find a place for him if he shows his true worth.

His nature role, actually Spanish role is an attacking MF position. The spanish formation doesn't have a CAM, it tends to have one MF back (I wouldn't call it defensive but it's deep position and certainly capable of good starting passes e.g Xabi Alonso, Javi Martinez, Sergio Busquets, Bruno and then there are 2 attacking midfielders e.g. Xavi and Iniesta or Cesc and Thiago or Cazorla and Borja Valero. Canales plays this position naturally, whereas Ozil, Kaka play right behind the forwards and sometimes even taking up a forward position.

Canales can play this CAM but his natural position is an attacking MF. Right now at Valencia they are playing Albelda as the back midfoelder and Banega and Canales as the two AM. The likely formation of the Olympic team will be Javi Martinez as the back MF with Thiago and Canales as the two AM.

So the only way he comes to Madrid as a starter (with Ozil still playing a CAM role) is to replace Alonso and Sahin taking up the deeper MF position. For what it's worth I have seen him play a few games as the deeper MF and his overall vision and passes are Xabi like, but I don't know how good his defensive play is.

This is what hopefully can happen. Though I think Sahin Ozil and Canales can coexist and rotate for those 2 AMF slots. Remember, maybe Ozils amazing form wont last. Maybe Sahin wont turn out to be as godly as we thought. Injuries, suspensions, form comes into the equation too. It depends on whether Canales is willing to forgive us really, I think Mou wont hesitate to bring him in if he is doing well.

by Mr Nick09 Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:31 pm

Thiago is more mature in his football than Canales. It jumps to the eye when you watch them play

by futbol_bill Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:45 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Thiago is more mature in his football than Canales. It jumps to the eye when you watch them play

Yes I agree. @setablanca, I am a big fan of Canales but he has a way to go to get to Thiago's level. He's just had 2 impressive games, that's not enough to make the NT (even you admitted (from the CL game) he still has a way to go) whereas Thiago has arrived over the past 6 months.

As to VDB, he is preparing the team for the next Euro. Although these last 2 games don't mean anything, it is important to keep on a winning note. I know you are sliding with Silva and think he is biased towards Madrid and Barcelona but I don't agree. Silva can have his point of view but the reality is, it is extremely difficult to be a starter for Spain right now. There is so much competition for most positions it's difficult for anyone to have a sure starter position. Being consistently named to be part of seleccion is an accomplishment as there are much more than 23 quality players available. We have such depth that for all MF and forward positions, there are at least 3 players for every position that are world class not to mention at least 10 more in youth teams that are only a couple of years away from being ready to play on big team.

What VDB has done is stay with the players who have succeeded and he is slowing moving players who are now excelling e.g. Negredo, Cazorla into seleccion primarily looking to see if they can replace some of the aging or declining players. His focus is on Euro. Canales will have his chance (if he continues to develop) for next WC.

by Le Samourai Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:50 pm

I disagree , IMO the gap between them isn't large at all and is soley based on Thiago receiving more oppurtunites at club level.

One full season at Valencia will change that.Providing no injury Canales will leapfrog him this year.

by futbol_bill Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:57 pm

ragbirjosh wrote:I disagree , IMO the gap between them isn't large at all and is soley based on Thiago receiving more oppurtunites at club level.

One full season at Valencia will change that.Providing no injury Canales will leapfrog him this year.

The gap is there now, I hope you are right that he can make the difference this year, but I suspect it will take next year as well. Thiago was the play maker on the U21 Euro team (a very talented team). That's why he waspromoted to Barcelona first team and is getting his starts at Barcelona and why he is being named to the senior NT. Plus he's looking good in all of these. Canales on the other hand had last year wasted, wasn't named to U21 team, then was injured at start on U20 WC tournament. He did eventually take over that team but they didn't win nor was that team as talented as the U21 team. Then he has a so so start at Valencia (due to missing the pre season). He now has had 2 successful starts so he is beginning his development but in no way does this add up to a selection to senior NT nor does it put him at Thiago level YET.

by The Madrid One Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:42 am

im guessing that his spot and future in madrid is dependent on how well he does for valencia in 2 years, and how he progresses as a good enough player to go onto to bigger things like the senior nt.

if he shows his worth, then im sure we could find a spot for him

by S32TABLANCA Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:39 pm

VDB does have quetionable selection choices. The constant snubbing of Soldado, Valero, Enrique... and probably countless players from other La Liga clubs that I do not follow as much. I mean, constantly playing Busquets and Alonso instead of putting in a Cazorla or Silva, or playing Pedro instead of a CF like Negredo, Llorente or even Torres (WC semi and final anyone?).

But it worked out fine for him, till now. If Canales, Thiago et al can find a place in the 2014 WC, I will be happy. Im not overrating Sergio here, not saying he is as good as Thiago, just that he might have deserved one call up till now.

by futbol_bill Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:54 pm

I admire your enthusiasm but as stated earlier VDB is going for another trophy and all games are preparing for that. He is going with what has worked. For someone like Soldado is get called up let alone make the team, Llorente or Negredo have to bomb out. Negredo is getting his chance now with the continual off form of Torres and Torres has been warned to not assume he will be on club. Busquets or Alonso or Javi Martinez are key to that deep MF in the Spanish system. Xabi sometimes plays more forward but you have to have at least one of these 3 in line-up. What you are missing (IMO) is that the best Spanish players are mostly on Real or Barca (they buy them up as soon as they begin to develop). I do agree with you that Enrique should be called up. There are serious holes in defense and even when he brought up Montoya, Monreal, Botia and Dominquez he hasn't played them so you do have a point about defense. But as far as MF and forwards there are at least 20 players hoping to make it and all of these would be ahead of Canales at this point.

But as I said earlier I hoping he develops into a quality starter at Valencia over the next 2 years, makes the Olympic team (and gets to start) and makes another big impact at International level. If he does that then Madrid should be interested again and he would be in the running for the WC team.

by S32TABLANCA Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:10 pm

I like the way he introduced Negredo to the XI. I dont know if he will remain there, but it was a good move. I didnt mean take out both Xabi and Busquets, but Spain only needs one DM. One DM, have xaviniesta in front of them, and you have space for Silva or Cazorla. I dont at all think that Canales should be in the NT squad, I just made that passing comment because these games are worthless and Thiago seemed to do it, so maybe Sergio could do it to... Dont read too much into it, I didnt mean anything like that.

I might be a big fan, but Im not a blinded fanboi. Laughing

by Le Samourai Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:51 pm

futbol_bill wrote:I admire your enthusiasm but as stated earlier VDB is going for another trophy and all games are preparing for that. He is going with what has worked. For someone like Soldado is get called up let alone make the team, Llorente or Negredo have to bomb out. Negredo is getting his chance now with the continual off form of Torres and Torres has been warned to not assume he will be on club. Busquets or Alonso or Javi Martinez are key to that deep MF in the Spanish system. Xabi sometimes plays more forward but you have to have at least one of these 3 in line-up. What you are missing (IMO) is that the best Spanish players are mostly on Real or Barca (they buy them up as soon as they begin to develop). I do agree with you that Enrique should be called up. There are serious holes in defense and even when he brought up Montoya, Monreal, Botia and Dominquez he hasn't played them so you do have a point about defense. But as far as MF and forwards there are at least 20 players hoping to make it and all of these would be ahead of Canales at this point.

But as I said earlier I hoping he develops into a quality starter at Valencia over the next 2 years, makes the Olympic team (and gets to start) and makes another big impact at International level. If he does that then Madrid should be interested again and he would be in the running for the WC team.

Your posts are so excruciatingly realistic.

Need to counteract

Canales Balon D' or 2013.

by futbol_bill Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:59 pm

Saetablanca wrote:I like the way he introduced Negredo to the XI. I dont know if he will remain there, but it was a good move. I didnt mean take out both Xabi and Busquets, but Spain only needs one DM. One DM, have xaviniesta in front of them, and you have space for Silva or Cazorla. I dont at all think that Canales should be in the NT squad, I just made that passing comment because these games are worthless and Thiago seemed to do it, so maybe Sergio could do it to... Dont read too much into it, I didnt mean anything like that.

I might be a big fan, but Im not a blinded fanboi.

Don't mean to belabor this, but with the MF, it's Busquets, Javi Martinez or Xabi back (I agree with you on this except we don't call this position DM since this guy is also responsible for the initial forward passes), then you have Xavi and Iniesta or Cesc. That's what should be normal starting line-up. For the WC it was the excellent play of both Xabi and Busquets that had VDB go with a 4 man MF. The problem with this is only 2 forwards. I prefer 3 forwards, One is Villa and the striker is one of Negredo, Llorente, Soldado or Torres which leaves a wing position for Silva (that's a more natural position for him), Pedro, Mata, Navas or Cesc or Iniesta.

That's what doesn't make sense with what Silva said. He is competing for starting position but he has to be clearly better than Pedro, Navas (his speed on the left side is what got him action last year), Cesc or Iniesta. There are times when he is but they are pretty darn good players that he is competing with.

Cazorla has to be better than Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc (even Xabi) and even Thiago not to mentions guys like Borja Valero. He's good but Xavi, Cesc and Iniesta are better. He does play in my mind a good sub role as he tends to change dynamics of game when he comes in with his lateral movements and his midfield golazos.

All of this of course assumes no injuries which is bound to happen to someone.

My preference is Villa Llorente Cesc (backup Pedro Negredo Silva)
Iniesta Busquets Xavi (backup Cazorla Alonso Cesc)

I prefer that they leave Mata and Javi Martinez (and even Thiago) off of team to play on Olympic team. Note that they likely will not go with 8 defense so there is room for a couple more offensive players.

You also mentioned that these last 2 games are nothing games but it is essential that we keep up the momentum. We have taken the friendly games (since WC) too lightly and now is the time to get the squad ready for Euro. And before you ask about the squad selection for those friendlies remember the deals were signed to see the WC team play.

by futbol_bill Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:43 pm

BAD BAD news. Canales has a partially torn ACL. He is in Madrid today for the doctors to decide what and when to operate. This is a severe injury that takes months to recovery from. We won't see Canales in Madrid for at least another year, if at all!!!

by S32TABLANCA Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:03 pm

As I said in the other thread, I was very unhappy when I saw this news. You all know how Canales is one of my favourite players, and this pretty much screwed up his development for a year. Yes, very very bad.

I hate to take positives from something like this, but did anyone see Casillas' comments on facebook? I thought that was really nice, even though Canales is with Valencia now and recently dissed us in the media, Iker showed what a great captain he is.