He's not replacing Suarez but he's quality. So glad to see him have more of a free role and he can roam. Wasted under Rodgers.

Helmer wrote:well it is simple, the strategy is to create 'clear cut and quality' chances when Firmino plays upfront ! I think Where as against Palace, the quality of our chances when Benteke played up front was not so good, almost all were half chances.

That was hilarious when Ibe played Benteke clear through and Benteke was moving like a lump and could not finish that chance !

To be fair, Benteke played that right as he played to his strengths. If he ran off and tried to break the lines he would of A) been offside 'cause he would of had to start his run way earlier and B) he most likely would of lost control of the ball / Mangala (or whichever defender it was now I forget) would of ran him down. Instead, he slowed down, pushed the defender off to get that extra space and unfortunately Hart made a good save.

Unique wrote:yeah mate I get what your saying. but at the start he was to slow when he got the ball. he was always under pressure when he got the ball. but that's to be expected he was new to the lge. but I like the way he didn't drop his head. that's why I think markovic will never make it. he lets things get him down.

No he wasn't.

He was adapting to a new country / lifestyle, new league, and was mismanaged being played out of position. He was always going to under perform. He can still barely speak English... lmao.

Markovic was never going to make it under Rodgers. I still stand by what I said and state that it was a stupid signing but he DOES have talent. He'll perform under Klopp if given the chance.

Time for him to hit the bench. Can't be the playmaker instead of Coutinho or Lallana and can't be a striker, unless it's counter-attacking. Can't be a winger. I don't know what he can be.

At least Joe Cole didn't cost anything in transfer fees. This guy's been his level shite. Just drifting around there without doing anything decisive. I want nothing more right now than this guy hit the bench.

Joe Cole never delivered a performance of the quality Firmino did against City. He's a good footballer, he just doesn't have a specific position. He's not an AM, not a forward, not a winger. Maybe closest thing is a SS but we don't play like that.

That makes him a good street footballer, then... He's had one good game against City where we caught them on the break time and again... Other than that he's been more indecisive than Joe Allen. I'll be mad if he keeps his starting place in midweek.

I have never seen Arty getting so pissed with someone and that includes Rodgers . While his (Arty, not Rodgers ) annoyance is justified, it's a bit harsh too.

Firmino has played an equivalent of 12 games and that too in phases and with a myriad of teammates and formations. Also, coming from the German League requires some bedding-in time. No one knows this better than the Boss himself.

On the flip-side, his performance has been erratic. I suppose it's OK if you improve slowly but in a steady, consistent rate. But when you have a sublime performances here and there in a patch of average performances; it really defies logic.

Wow. The impatience is strong with this one.

Firmino has quality. His movement, his vision, and his ball-carrying ability show that. What he's currently lacking is finishing and a helping hand. In fact, his frustrating qualities remind me of another footballer who took a little time to adjust and reach his potential at Liverpool. Perhaps you remember him: Luis Suarez... What his goal-scoring prowess in his last two seasons masks was his relatively slow start. 4 goals in his first half-season in the PL and 11 in his first full-season aren't exactly terrible, but certainly don't represent his true ability (which we saw in '12-13 and '13-14.) If you will remember, there were plenty arguing that we shouldn't be playing Suarez as a lone CF, as he wasn't suited for the PL, was only a creator, couldn't finish, etc...

Now, don't get all carried away, thinking that I'm directly equating Suarez and Firmino. Firmino is not going to "replace" Suarez. First of all, he doesn't play the same position. Despite his goal-scoring exploits in the Bundesliga, he's not a true CF. He can play there, as he showed with his last stint on the Brazilian NT. However, he's looked best when there are players running in behind him (be them wide players, a partnering ST, or a true CF).

From what I've seen, Firmino is most effective when facilitating for other finishers and using the subsequently-created space to find chances for himself. Benteke - predictably - has not proven to be the ideal striker for this style. (It's not that I'm necessarily against Benteke or his use in the squad. It's merely that his "natural" game does not dovetail with Firmino's strengths.) Origi has been better, as his instincts and movement jive with Firmino. It's merely that Origi's finishing has been erratic, as can be expected from a 20 year-old. Daniel Sturridge's game would likely be ideal, if he were ever fit.

The point of all of this is that Firmino has not been put in a situation in which he can be expected to flourish. Yes, he was an expensive signing. Yes, he succeeded in his last stint. Yes, any player as highly rated should be expected to adapt to new tactics and leagues. However, he's been used sporadically, in different roles (RW, CF, CAM, etc.), and in various pairings. Combine that with a move to a new country and a new league, and you begin to see why we may not have seen the best of him just yet. Even so, he's managed 3 assists (joint top) and a goal. These stats aren't bad considering the inconsistent nature of the squad's overall play.

Yes, I would expect better eventually, but it's harsh to hold Firmino to a standard without taking into account the overall play of the team and situation he's been placed into. I, for one, am willing to have patience with the Brazillian, as I believe his potential up-side easily warrants the bedding-in time he may require.

Firmino is playing with fear. You simply can't have that, no matter what's your skill level. He's never looking hungry to get the ball, he's making himself available half-arsedly. He's got the chance to play up top, but is looking like shying away from taking responsibility. Maybe a full-back can get away with that, but a forward can't.

And listen, I understand it, he's young and come to a big club with big expectations. And he seems like a nice guy, no arrogance in him like in a player like Suarez. But this combination is leading to him playing with fear. And you simply can't perform well then at this level, if you're an attacking player who is more comfortable letting his teammates take responsibility than taking it yourself.

This is why needs to be benched. He can't remain a starter while he's looking so unsure of himself out there.

the problem with firmino is he thinks he will have time on the ball. he does everything to slowley

Art Morte wrote:Firmino is playing with fear. You simply can't have that, no matter what's your skill level. He's never looking hungry to get the ball, he's making himself available half-arsedly. He's got the chance to play up top, but is looking like shying away from taking responsibility. Maybe a full-back can get away with that, but a forward can't.

And listen, I understand it, he's young and come to a big club with big expectations. And he seems like a nice guy, no arrogance in him like in a player like Suarez. But this combination is leading to him playing with fear. And you simply can't perform well then at this level, if you're an attacking player who is more comfortable letting his teammates take responsibility than taking it yourself.

This is why needs to be benched. He can't remain a starter while he's looking so unsure of himself out there.

I'm not sure how you rectify "playing with fear" by punishing him. If he's playing as though he's afraid of making a mistake, why justify that fear by benching him? Moreover, I would suggest that it was precisely Rodger's management of him that fostered this "fear" that you speak of. He was played out of position and found himself in and out of the team after several luke-warm performances. Seems rather justified that he would take a certain level of apprehension from that experience.

No, I certainly would not bench him. I would give him a big'ol Klopp bear-hug and tell him he has free reign to express himself.

Unique wrote:the problem with firmino is he thinks he will have time on the ball. he does everything to slowley

Simply can't agree here. I think a lot of what is not working for him are the dummies and quick flicks, as there is simply no one in the positions he expects. Needs a Suarez/Sturridge type of striker running in the channels and past him.

donttreadonred wrote:

Art Morte wrote:Firmino is playing with fear. You simply can't have that, no matter what's your skill level. He's never looking hungry to get the ball, he's making himself available half-arsedly. He's got the chance to play up top, but is looking like shying away from taking responsibility. Maybe a full-back can get away with that, but a forward can't.

And listen, I understand it, he's young and come to a big club with big expectations. And he seems like a nice guy, no arrogance in him like in a player like Suarez. But this combination is leading to him playing with fear. And you simply can't perform well then at this level, if you're an attacking player who is more comfortable letting his teammates take responsibility than taking it yourself.

This is why needs to be benched. He can't remain a starter while he's looking so unsure of himself out there.

I'm not sure how you rectify "playing with fear" by punishing him. If he's playing as though he's afraid of making a mistake, why justify that fear by benching him? Moreover, I would suggest that it was precisely Rodger's management of him that fostered this "fear" that you speak of. He was played out of position and found himself in and out of the team after several luke-warm performances. Seems rather justified that he would take a certain level of apprehension from that experience.

No, I certainly would not bench him. I would give him a big'ol Klopp bear-hug and tell him he has free reign to express himself.

Unique wrote:the problem with firmino is he thinks he will have time on the ball. he does everything to slowley

Simply can't agree here. I think a lot of what is not working for him are the dummies and quick flicks, as there is simply no one in the positions he expects. Needs a Suarez/Sturridge type of striker running in the channels and past him.

if he plays tonight watch how often he gets cought on the ball.

Firmino isn't the type of player that relies on pace or moving the game quickly when he's on the ball. He has great vision and passing as well as a nice shot and the ability to dribble...his dribbling though isn't like Coutinho's where he breaks past into space and runs with the ball, it's more a space creator to shoot, dribble another player or more often try and create an opportunity for someone else. I don't think he's getting caught on the ball too much, but if he does it's because there's not enough positive movement around him, IMO.

I find his off the ball work to be great though. Lots of energy and generally moving into great positions.

Curtinho wrote:Firmino isn't the type of player that relies on pace or moving the game quickly when he's on the ball. He has great vision and passing as well as a nice shot and the ability to dribble...his dribbling though isn't like Coutinho's where he breaks past into space and runs with the ball, it's more a space creator to shoot, dribble another player or more often try and create an opportunity for someone else. I don't think he's getting caught on the ball too much, but if he does it's because there's not enough positive movement around him, IMO.

I find his off the ball work to be great though. Lots of energy and generally moving into great positions.

ive seen him lots of times get the ball and look up to find a pass and he is getting closed down. what he needs to be doing is spotting a pass before the ball reaches him. coutinho is class at doing that and that's why he is so good. its that split second to slow I'm talking about. if you watch him closely in tonights game you will see what I'm talking about. the split second it take for him to look up is when he is being closed down.

I didn't watch the Arsenal game and only saw highlights of it afterwards. So I can't say how much influential (or flowing) he was during the course of the game, but both the goals were definitely well taken.

However, he is much too inconsistent. It's not like I expect him to be absolute sublime game after game, but he has a cracker of a game and then has a spell of some pretty average (or ineffectual) ones.

He's still adjusting. He's best used as a 'false 9' or right behind the striker so hopefully he keeps getting reps there and becomes more comfortable. He'll come good I'm pretty confident of that. People have been a bit too harsh on him anyway; his work rate, intelligence and quality are obvious.

I repeat he is the best possible Suarez replacement we could have had !

Yeah, I never stopped believing in his quality. He has too many good qualities to fail. I think he's been victim of the system and players around him. For example Benteke, for all his quality, is just never gonna work for us unless he accepts a bench option B role (which he won't).

Firminos biggest weakness right now is holding the ball as a forward when leading the line and being under pressure. In case he manges to hold the ball, he panicks and does not find a good pass. But if he keeps playing in that position more and more, he will learn it.

Helmer wrote:I repeat he is the best possible Suarez replacement we could have had !

no

Helmer wrote:Firminos biggest weakness right now is holding the ball as a forward when leading the line and being under pressure. In case he manges to hold the ball, he panicks and does not find a good pass. But if he keeps playing in that position more and more, he will learn it.

He's not a target man. That's why he's not great with his back to goal. He can play the CF role, but he's really not a line-leading striker. He's far more suited to the role that Lallana had against Arsenal. However, the issue is that we don't have anyone fit and suited to the Striker role under Klopp. Ideally, Firmino would play just behind/off the line-leading ST, as a CAM/CF/SS hybrid. He's not Coutinho; he's not Gerrard; he's not even Suarez. We need to stop expecting him to play their roles.

I don't think we'll see his true quality until we get someone on the pitch that can play the Striker role in Klopp's system. (It's still amazing to me that after spending the amount we did in the summer, we're still not able to field someone in this role. However, that's a discussion for another time and thread...) Bring in a Cavani, Lacazette, Michy, Berahino, or maybe even Williams (Athletic Bilbao), and I think we'll see him truly flourish.

if only Liverpool had signed sanchez when suarez left.

We probably tried, but Arsenal are the more attractive destination.

Art Morte wrote:We probably tried, but Arsenal are the more attractive destination.

Not 'probably'. You tried hard, he didn't want to come. It's known.

My favourite

He has been very rusty so far this season.