M99 wrote:Disagree on the World Cup. It was a great tournament, much better than 2010 and 2006. The group stages was very entertaining. Hell the first week itself, Spain being undone, Switzerland scoring a stoppage time winner, England vs Italy, Japan vs Ivory Coast was a spectacle.

Fußball wrote:Entertainment vs. quality. Entertainment is still there (Spurs 5 - Chelsea 3). Quality not so much.

Italian football is at an all time low. When the best thing the big Milan clubs can get these days are Arsenal and Atletico rejects (Podolski, Cerci) and Gervinho is dominating the league you know what's up.

Bundesliga is a joke. Bayern is a great team but since Pep took over they have lost 2 games in 51. Both when they were already mathematically champions with weakened teams. Basically when they were still competing no one in the league beat them, even with all those injuries to Martinez, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Lahm etc. I repeat, they are great but even prime Barca lost games and conceded goals from time to time as does Real Madrid right now who aren't worse than Bayern. Real Madrid under Ancelotti already lost 8 games in La Liga. Meanwhile Bayern have conceded 4 goals halfway through the season. This doesn't speak for the quality of Bundesliga.

Premier League has regressed. Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal. They are playing shit on a stick football throughout the season. It's unwatchable. Even this supposed invincible Chelsea side is prone to collapsing and conceding 5 goals to an average Spurs team. Solid team, typical Mourinho team tactically, far from a great team. Ivanovic, Cahill, Terry, Willian, Oscar, Cesc, Costa. Meh. Far from fearsome. Just the most organized team in the league. Doesn't hold a candle to the old school Chelsea teams in the mid 00s with prime Terry, Carvalho, Lampard, Makelele, Essien, Robben, Duff, Drogba ... City is a weird one. They have the players but they suck in Europe and aren't super solid defensively. Naive is probably the best word to use, pretty much like Real Madrid under Pellegrini when they won lots of games in the league with great football but somehow got their asses handed to them against Lyon in the CL R16 or in the Copa del Rey against Alcorcon.

La Liga: Barcelona is playing the worst football it has played in a decade. The forward line Messi, Neymar, Suarez is solving games on their own. Granted, it can solve A LOT of games on their own. As a TEAM however it is rather mediocre. Real Madrid and Atletico are at their best though so it makes it highly competitive at the top while Valencia, Sevilla and Vilarreal are all fighting it out for 4th place nicely. The gap between Barca and Sevilla halfway through the season is only 5 points and Sevilla has got a game in hand! I think in terms of competitiveness, prestige games (Clasico, Madrd derby), football quality, "shock" results (Barca 0 - Celta 1, Real Sociedad 4 - Real Madrid 2, Valencia 3 - Atletico 1 ...) and everything else considered it's by far the best package in the world.

Intl. footy has regressed the most. Germany is the only great, settled team right now in Europe but ancient Klose is still the best striker we have. Spain have the quality and potential without a shadow of doubt, remains to be seen if del Bosque can build a great unit until Euro 2016. France is also a good team. But that's that. I remember around 2000: Zidane's France, Figo's Portugal, a great Italy team, entertaining Spain team that lacked the winning mentality and luck but played proper football, a great Dutch team with Kluivert, Bergkamp, Staam, van der Sar, Cocu, Seedorf, Overmars, de Boer. Man, even Turkey had their best ever team around that time.

TL;DR: Watch La Liga.

DuringTheWar wrote:Jibers Gary Neville said 60-70% of training in his day was defensive work, now he says it 20%. Guess that's the reason you feel this way.

Full article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/11202272/Premier-League-football-is-witnessing-the-death-of-defending-as-I-knew-it-and-its-not-coming-back.html

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Top 4 teams not rolling over the rest of the league anymore = regression according to GL.

The PL outside of the top 4 was *bleep* garbage back in the day, Stoke would roll them over blindfolded.

Nostalgia is seriously strong.

sportsczy wrote:The players are less technical, but much better athletes now.  Because players are stronger and faster, the pitch has shrunk... so there's less room for technical skill to be shown.  As a result, a lot of people emphasize athleticism as it is more valuable in the modern game.  You can't make the pitch sizes larger obviously  They've tried to make the football more dynamic (to the horror of keepers) and they are making the rules so that physical play isn't allowed as much.

To me, the next step is to get rid of the offsides rule altogether.  That will immediately stretch the pitch and open spaces.  

sportsczy wrote:"middle" class meant that you could count on 3-4 teams in all the top 6 leagues in Europe to compete with anyone.  You had Porto win the CL or Monaco reach the final.  You didn't have Bayern, Madrid and Barca pretty much penciled in for every CL semifinal.

We have too many elite teams today and those elite teams hoard too much talent.

With the way FFP is set up, you're not going to see it change either.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

jibers wrote:The world cup was atrocious as well. The semi finals 7-1 was one of the worst football matches I have ever seen. I thought the 94 and '10 WC were bad, but this last world cup literally was just something else. Ramos is a top cb? Are you kidding me? Brazil defending worse than a sunday league side? This was the semis of a WC! Germany didn't even play that well, that was the saddest part.

Yeah Brazil were bad in that one match, no one is going to disagree there, but the quality of this WC overall was great. In most WCs you have a few 'filler' teams. Teams that are not really WC level but make it on account of their region being so weak. Think North Korea in 2010, which went on to get plastered with 7 goals by Portugal. Or Saudi Arabia, which lost by 8 goals against Germany in 2002.

Oddly, that didn't happen this year. In fact, many of the teams that no one thought would do a decent job, like Algeria or Costa Rica, went on to become some of the surprises of the tournament. Even the ones that did not make it very far, like Iran, were still able to put in very respectable performances against tough opponents.

This has to be down to better coaching across the board. The level between the teams has evened out so much that the traditional favorites cannot rely on raw talent to go through to the later stages, as Italy and England found out.

You might associate better coached, more disciplined sides with tighter matches and more boring football. But this was not the case. In fact, relative to 2010, the goals per game went up and while everyone was disilusioned with SA the comments about the football in Brazil were mostly positive.

Furthermore, in 2010 there was very little tactical diversity, with most top teams opting for a 4231, which 4 of 3 semi-finalists used. 2014 had a much greater diversity with 3 man backlines making a comeback (most notably for the Dutch, who at one point used a 433) and tactical battles were thus all the more interesting for it.

So no, I can't say I agree with this at all. International football is definitely better than it was 4 years ago. The coaching level has evened out and there are no embarassing games (well, except Brazil...), games are more entertaining now and tactically more interesting.

TL;DR Pls go

Hapless_Hans wrote:

El Gunner wrote:

Fußball wrote:Entertainment vs. quality. Entertainment is still there (Spurs 5 - Chelsea 3). Quality not so much.

Italian football is at an all time low. When the best thing the big Milan clubs can get these days are Arsenal and Atletico rejects (Podolski, Cerci) and Gervinho is dominating the league you know what's up.

Bundesliga is a joke. Bayern is a great team but since Pep took over they have lost 2 games in 51. Both when they were already mathematically champions with weakened teams. Basically when they were still competing no one in the league beat them, even with all those injuries to Martinez, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Lahm etc. I repeat, they are great but even prime Barca lost games and conceded goals from time to time as does Real Madrid right now who aren't worse than Bayern. Real Madrid under Ancelotti already lost 8 games in La Liga. Meanwhile Bayern have conceded 4 goals halfway through the season. This doesn't speak for the quality of Bundesliga.

Premier League has regressed. Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal. They are playing shit on a stick football throughout the season. It's unwatchable. Even this supposed invincible Chelsea side is prone to collapsing and conceding 5 goals to an average Spurs team. Solid team, typical Mourinho team tactically, far from a great team. Ivanovic, Cahill, Terry, Willian, Oscar, Cesc, Costa. Meh. Far from fearsome. Just the most organized team in the league. Doesn't hold a candle to the old school Chelsea teams in the mid 00s with prime Terry, Carvalho, Lampard, Makelele, Essien, Robben, Duff, Drogba ... City is a weird one. They have the players but they suck in Europe and aren't super solid defensively. Naive is probably the best word to use, pretty much like Real Madrid under Pellegrini when they won lots of games in the league with great football but somehow got their asses handed to them against Lyon in the CL R16 or in the Copa del Rey against Alcorcon.

La Liga: Barcelona is playing the worst football it has played in a decade. The forward line Messi, Neymar, Suarez is solving games on their own. Granted, it can solve A LOT of games on their own. As a TEAM however it is rather mediocre. Real Madrid and Atletico are at their best though so it makes it highly competitive at the top while Valencia, Sevilla and Vilarreal are all fighting it out for 4th place nicely. The gap between Barca and Sevilla halfway through the season is only 5 points and Sevilla has got a game in hand! I think in terms of competitiveness, prestige games (Clasico, Madrd derby), football quality, "shock" results (Barca 0 - Celta 1, Real Sociedad 4 - Real Madrid 2, Valencia 3 - Atletico 1 ...) and everything else considered it's by far the best package in the world.

Intl. footy has regressed the most. Germany is the only great, settled team right now in Europe but ancient Klose is still the best striker we have. Spain have the quality and potential without a shadow of doubt, remains to be seen if del Bosque can build a great unit until Euro 2016. France is also a good team. But that's that. I remember around 2000: Zidane's France, Figo's Portugal, a great Italy team, entertaining Spain team that lacked the winning mentality and luck but played proper football, a great Dutch team with Kluivert, Bergkamp, Staam, van der Sar, Cocu, Seedorf, Overmars, de Boer. Man, even Turkey had their best ever team around that time.

TL;DR: Watch La Liga.

Suprisingly enough this post makes sense in a way.

No it doesn't. It is hyperbole which doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny.

It's no surprise that a PL and Man Utd fan would bemoan the terrible demise of football as a whole, but it is still easy to see through kneejerk tbh.
Because, yes, the PL top clubs are worse than say 8 years ago. Doesn't mean it's worse than 20 years ago, or that all football is worse.

Typical case of people thinking the world revolves around them.
They get older and less excitable and less relevant, and that means that everything was better in the good old days.

And to claim that the Bundesliga is a joke NOW compared to earlier, if we're talking about FOOTBALL QUALITY, is frankly nothing short of ridiculous.
I've been watching Bayern for a long time, and we had strong no nonsense teams in the past, but if we want to talk about 'quality of football' lol, there's never been a better Bayern in any comparable past (the 70s are not comparable). Period.

That's also the reason why we lose so few games in a league that has hugely improved, not because the league is 'a joke'.

A joke is Barca fans, who probably 5 years ago when Pepcelona was in prime would have argued football quality is at an all time high in history, now seeing it fit to argue all football is bad, since they are worse than they were.

That the decline of traditional powerhouses like the Italian league leaves a dent is undeniable, but that of course is due to them not developing the way other leagues have developed, so to argue football as a whole is in demise is just nonsense, there are different cycles involved is all.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Top 4 teams not rolling over the rest of the league anymore = regression according to GL.

The PL outside of the top 4 was *bleep* garbage back in the day, Stoke would roll them over blindfolded.

Nostalgia is seriously strong.

this

Donuts wrote:quality is the same honestly my assumption is your probably just getting tired of the hobby maybe give it a break and you'll regain your interest?

Robespierre wrote:Anyway there is  a problem of quality for me too.
This is a football era where there is not the Brazil, this is enough to explain the situation . Brazil was always the biggest container of quality players.  Now Brazil has Fernandinho,Paulinho etc to create football. It can't be a real football without Brazil.

Anyway Brazil can be a simply matter of cycles . It happened to all to have a scrub period. Even Italy has it. But Italy indeed testifies the real current problem.

A problem who seems irreversible because  it is not a matter of cycle but it looks like if we have taken a definitely turn for the worst .What I am talking about ? About the defenders. Even Italy historical country of great defenders is having this great problem.

The current defenders can't defender. It is because of academies . You don't learn to defend well as before  anymore, now it looks like important to play the ball , being a quality players even if you are a defender and the marking almost as an optional.

Yes , David Luiz, I called you . The prototype of modern defenders. Well I preferred other as Walter Samuel.

Gary Neville wrote a very excellent analysis about it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/11202272/Premier-League-football-is-witnessing-the-death-of-defending-as-I-knew-it-and-its-not-coming-back.html

The Franchise wrote:I dont enjoy football as much because the quality of football is lower? There could be some hint of truth in that statement but I still enjoy football very much and likely forever will.

I think for sure there is something in what is being said, I think alot of people make good points (I found myself agreeing with Futbol and Sport the most, I stopped reading midway through page 3 so forgive me on that) which make much sense and speak about individual teams which accurately.

But also this is a very "back in my day" moment...where some may think it was better back in "their" day while others who are feeling the more current situation think its just as good, if not better. Common argument which is not just football, but music and various other things.

Perhaps I missed some posts and therefore some clarification of points, but I dont see how there is an argument that the PL best teams arent worst..to me, this is rather obvious and didnt imagine it would be a sticking point to anyone. Someone can quote this part of my post if they want to set me straight on something maybe I missed.


But trying to stay focussed on the OP. I still watch roughly the same amount of football and enjoy it generally speaking...but I do get it, there are some significant problems with some of the best teams. I said at the time, it was incredible to me that Germany were able to play quite average for the majority of the tournament...basically they looked good for a combined 2 matches, and yet wont the whole thing. Things like that make you (or at least me) question the quality of the other teams...but I mean, it wasnt news to me that NT football is quite bad and I make a point of rarely watching it.

sportsczy wrote:well, he has a point.  The "beautiful game" style of play that the Dutch adapted and now Barca all started with how Brazil played.... the notion that everyone, including defenders, need to be technical and capable of scoring goals and contributing to the attack.  All the tricks and dribbling techniques you see today were invented by Brazilian players.

It's like playing Samba music without Brazil being a major contributor...  it lacks imagination.

But i want to expand it beyond just Brazil:  The erosion of the youth academies in South America in general and the falling levels of the pro leagues there are the main reasons that football lacks diversity.  European clubs are poaching kids at such a young age that all the players are "Europeanized"...  everyone is the same.  

I remember when Careca, Maradona, Romario, Bebeto, etc. came to Europe in the 80s...  they brought an entirely new way.  It was fantastic.  Who's going to bring novelty to European and world football today?