I'm sorry, and I know Jack Wilshere looked very good against City (Minus Yaya) but where were these threads about Jack Wilshere?

He's been playing poorly for years now.  

Again, I have never understood it, it's like the guy is Teflon and can't be knocked by Arsenal fans.

Sure you can take your shots at Cazorla, Ozil, Giroud but say something about Wilshere and it's game over people will flip out.

Is it because Ozil isn't English, or the money spent on him (which almost everyone was behind) because people talk about Ozil's numbers and performances and they still are better and way more consistent than Jack Wilshere's.

Is Ozil now the scapegoat?  Because the escuse for Jack was always, "yea he's not playing well but the talent is there."

Well Ozil is even more talented so why does he not get the same rope Wilshere does?  

To be fair I do see some Arsenal fans defending Ozil, but as bad as people think he's been for the short amount of time he's been there I would bet Jack has never had as good of an EPL season as Ozil's last year.  

So what are we judging the guy off the first couple games coming off of winning the world cup where Jack barely played and didn't play well either?

I just don't get it, I don't see this weird dynamic anywhere else.  And yes Jack played well this weekend but I'm assuming that's what you expect, right?

Dnmac4 wrote:I'm sorry, and I know Jack Wilshere looked very good against City (Minus Yaya) but where were these threads about Jack Wilshere?

He's been playing poorly for years now.  

Again, I have never understood it, it's like the guy is Teflon and can't be knocked by Arsenal fans.

Sure you can take your shots at Cazorla, Ozil, Giroud but say something about Wilshere and it's game over people will flip out.

Is it because Ozil isn't English, or the money spent on him (which almost everyone was behind) because people talk about Ozil's numbers and performances and they still are better and way more consistent than Jack Wilshere's.

Is Ozil now the scapegoat?  Because the escuse for Jack was always, "yea he's not playing well but the talent is there."

Well Ozil is even more talented so why does he not get the same rope Wilshere does?  

To be fair I do see some Arsenal fans defending Ozil, but as bad as people think he's been for the short amount of time he's been there I would bet Jack has never had as good of an EPL season as Ozil's last year.  

So what are we judging the guy off the first couple games coming off of winning the world cup where Jack barely played and didn't play well either?

I just don't get it, I don't see this weird dynamic anywhere else.  And yes Jack played well this weekend but I'm assuming that's what you expect, right?

Let me get this straight... When Ramsey goes from poor form to GOAT - Arsenal fans are clueless, hypocrites and fickle. Then when Wilshere underperforms for years (after enduring a bad string of injuries) and we show patience, we are too soft on him.

Wilshere is a fan favourite because of A) His public displays of loyalty to the club B) He visibly puts in 100% C) He is a youth product D) He has shown the potential to be world class since he was 17 - His progress has been stifled largely due to injury.

Anyway I agree with the Ozil hate being uncalled for.. As you said, it is to do with his price tag, the fact he is a proven world class player and his general demeanour which gets misinterpreted as lazy.

It has nothing to do with the fact he isn't English though. To prove my point, Podolski also gets a free ride because he is a likeable chap, despite the fact he is one of Arsenals highest paid players who spends much of his time on the bench.

Dnmac4 wrote:I'm sorry, and I know Jack Wilshere looked very good against City (Minus Yaya) but where were these threads about Jack Wilshere?

He's been playing poorly for years now.  

Again, I have never understood it, it's like the guy is Teflon and can't be knocked by Arsenal fans.

Sure you can take your shots at Cazorla, Ozil, Giroud but say something about Wilshere and it's game over people will flip out.

Is it because Ozil isn't English, or the money spent on him (which almost everyone was behind) because people talk about Ozil's numbers and performances and they still are better and way more consistent than Jack Wilshere's.

Is Ozil now the scapegoat?  Because the escuse for Jack was always, "yea he's not playing well but the talent is there."

Well Ozil is even more talented so why does he not get the same rope Wilshere does?  

To be fair I do see some Arsenal fans defending Ozil, but as bad as people think he's been for the short amount of time he's been there I would bet Jack has never had as good of an EPL season as Ozil's last year.  

So what are we judging the guy off the first couple games coming off of winning the world cup where Jack barely played and didn't play well either?

I just don't get it, I don't see this weird dynamic anywhere else.  And yes Jack played well this weekend but I'm assuming that's what you expect, right?

I'm sorry my eye sight must be poor, I thought the title of the thread said Mesut Oezil ffs

I must need glasses....

Peccadillo wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:I'm sorry, and I know Jack Wilshere looked very good against City (Minus Yaya) but where were these threads about Jack Wilshere?

He's been playing poorly for years now.  

Again, I have never understood it, it's like the guy is Teflon and can't be knocked by Arsenal fans.

Sure you can take your shots at Cazorla, Ozil, Giroud but say something about Wilshere and it's game over people will flip out.

Is it because Ozil isn't English, or the money spent on him (which almost everyone was behind) because people talk about Ozil's numbers and performances and they still are better and way more consistent than Jack Wilshere's.

Is Ozil now the scapegoat?  Because the escuse for Jack was always, "yea he's not playing well but the talent is there."

Well Ozil is even more talented so why does he not get the same rope Wilshere does?  

To be fair I do see some Arsenal fans defending Ozil, but as bad as people think he's been for the short amount of time he's been there I would bet Jack has never had as good of an EPL season as Ozil's last year.  

So what are we judging the guy off the first couple games coming off of winning the world cup where Jack barely played and didn't play well either?

I just don't get it, I don't see this weird dynamic anywhere else.  And yes Jack played well this weekend but I'm assuming that's what you expect, right?

Let me get this straight... When Ramsey goes from poor form to GOAT - Arsenal fans are clueless, hypocrites and fickle. Then when Wilshere underperforms for years (after enduring a bad string of injuries) and we show patience, we are too soft on him.

Wilshere is a fan favourite because of A) His public displays of loyalty to the club B) He visibly puts in 100% C) He is a youth product D) He has shown the potential to be world class since he was 17 - His progress has been stifled largely due to injury.

Anyway I agree with the Ozil hate being uncalled for.. As you said, it is to do with his price tag, the fact he is a proven world class player and his general demeanour which gets misinterpreted as lazy.

It has nothing to do with the fact he isn't English though. To prove my point, Podolski also gets a free ride because he is a likeable chap, despite the fact he is one of Arsenals highest paid players who spends much of his time on the bench.

OK, Podolski for some reason got a pass for being better than he actually was way before he got to Arsenal, in fact Arsenal is kind of a bump in the road in his career.

And yes, Ramsey is a totally different story because so many football fans in general had given up on the kid, me included.  I was dead wrong on Ramsey, but before he broke out he had been under performing and therefor had shown some promise as a youngster but even so was never lauded to the heights of Wilshere.

The reasons you gave for Supporting Wilshere below could easily be applied to Giroud, could they not?

"Wilshere is a fan favourite because of A) His public displays of loyalty to the club B) He visibly puts in 100% C) He is a youth product D) He has shown the potential to be world class since he was 17 - His progress has been stifled largely due to injury."

I mean Giroud kisses the badge all the time hence showing loyalty to the club, runs his socks off putting in 100%, and shown the potential if consistent to be a great player.  Yet he is scapegoated for all kinds of things.  Yes, he's not a youth player but so what.  

Not to mention Jack Wilshere has never shown the potential to be a world class player.  I mean the guy can barely score a couple goals or assists in his league per year and has massive flaws in his game, there are a lot of players who put in a good shift now and again.  That BTW are hampered by injuries.

I mean no one has confused Ever Banega with being a World class player and he is much more deserving.

Ozil on the other hand has been a world class player and it seems everyone coming back from this world cup has been given somewhat of a mulligan in the early season except for Ozil for what ever reason.

It's just very strange as people will blindly stick through YEARS of bad play from Wilshere and it's not all because of injuries, that's just a very easy/lazy excuse, everyone on Arsenal is injured.

But Ozil is being hung out to dry, the same with Giroud last year etc and according to Arsenal fans Jack is a World class talent so just think to the degree he's been under performing, if you think he's world class then OMG he has been putting on out right shameful displays.

This really isn't very difficult, if you watched Ozil play for Madrid or Germany he's always had the propensity to go in funks like this and has never been a guy to run his socks off. His game also largely depends on the talent around him and I know a lot of Arsenal fans will not want to hear this but the guy as a mature footballer has been used to laying for Madrid and Germany, Arsenal doesn't have close tot he talent of those teams hence he's not surrounded by world class players making his type of game that much harder to pull off.

Has he been under performing, yes with out a doubt, just try showing a little perspective before you run him out of town.

Gooner's aren't calling for Giroud's head though. Everyone wants and likes him at the club. Everyone acknowledges he's good enough for Arsenal.. We just need someone better. Most would prefer him to be a back-up player rather than start 40 games a season is all. You will find with Welbeck in the mix attention on Oli will ease.

If you don't think Wilshere has ever shown the potential to be world-class then that's your opinion, but its certainly not an opinion shared by everyone. I think playing a full season as a 17/18 year old for Arsenal and benching the likes of Rosicky etc speaks volumes about someone's potential personally.

You seem to have ignored the fact that he has been struggling with injury.

You're putting words into my mouth - I never said Wilshere is world class - I said he has the potential to be. As many players, he may never fulfil that potential.

Anyway, on Ozil as per thread. You cannot just say that Ozil has only looked good because he plays for Real and Germany. Ridiculous comment. He beasted at Werder before Real you know? By the same token, players can also look worse in stronger teams because they still out like a sore thumb because they disrupt the flow of the build up.

I'm not running him out of town, my perspective is pretty balanced. I think he could offer more but is barely under-performing. He got a player rating of 6 for the City game, if you asked me I'd have given him a 6.5 for what he offered in our attack and all chances he created in the first half.

It seems we largely don't disagree about Ozil, with the exception of your ridiculous insinuation that he was simply overrated before coming to Arsenal. I mostly just wanted to pull you up on your Wilshere and/or English player bashing.

I wonder who the next scapegoat will be when Arsenal has a bad patch of form?

We know from the last 10 years they will have to be a player of Non-English descent that hasn't come up in there youth system.

My guess would be probably Giroud again or Arteta (who is poor but it'e either him of Flamini so it's not really his fault they refuse to re-enforce the position).

We know if were judging by Wilshere that one good game means said player is "back" even though you could have driven a bus through the middle of Arsenal's midfield against Dortmond. So I would expect the same treatment for Ozil that Wilshere received (yea right).

And BTW, I know this will seem like another bash Wilshere thread which it's not but I said this when they bought Cazorla and almost every EPL and Arsenal fan thought Cazorla was a winger.  And then I said it again when they bought Ozil, there are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Sure Ozil and Cazorla are more effective out wide than Wilshere is but that doesn't mean they should be playing there.  Its not there natural positions.  

IMO you can't play Ramsey, Wilshere, Ozil, Cazorla, Rosicky etc all together.  They all like to play in the middle,  and IMO out of those players Wilshere SHOULD be the odd man out as these players are all better than him.

But for whatever reason and it's really a weird dynamic Wenger and Arsenal fans insist on shoehorning Wilshere into the lineup and pushing better players out of position to do so.

Today, no Wishere no problem.  They have more space to operate in, Ozil is able to float all around the middle of the park and Cazorla is allowed to link up play with Ramsey coming in on his trademark late runs.

This is how the midfield SHOULD look.  We all know it wont but I have just never understood it.  It's quite a simple coaching tactic.  

Put your best 11 players on the pitch and put them in position to succeed.

Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Yea, I mean I've done my fair share of knocking the lad which IMO was justified as there were a lot of Arsenal and other fans overrating him to the worst degree.

Saying he could walk into any midfield in the world and even one thread compared him to Messi (To be fair a lot of Arsenal fans thought the poster was off-base but not on the walk into any midfield one) and saying he's world class.  I would say 80-90% in one thread said he was better than Yaya Toure again this was a while ago.  

But still I think most have come to the conclusion that at best he's a decent player and at worst he destroys Arsenal's formation and badly effects a Midfield that really should be very good.  Not to mention the guy doesn't have a position, I mean what position does he play?  

IMO Benching Cazorla and moving Ozil out wide to fit Wilshere in the team is pure insanity.

Ozil when on form actually is World class.

It's even gotten to a point where I've been told I hate British players but I can't really think of any others that I bash?  I like Ox, Rooney, Walcott, Sterling.  I got bashed on here 2 years ago for saying Sturridge was 10 times the youth prospect Wilshere was.  The only other England player I may bash from time to time is Gerrard because the guy hawks PK's from everyone else on the team I think 11 out of 13 goals last year were PK's which he didn't win. I'm not saying he's not good but as people will see this year playing in multiple competitions, he's not close to the player he used to be.

All I ask is why doesn't Wilshere stand up to the same scrutiny others do?  I saw everyone on Arsenal's team and Ozil to a massive extent get blamed for the Dortmond game except Wilshere.  And he was terrible the midfield was like it wasn't there and if played correctly I would say Arsenal have the players to match up to Dortmond's midfield maybe even better ones (again if played correctly).

Then I go into Arsenal's section yesterday and see posts like, "the game was great we got to rest Wilshere."  And many others to the same effect not once noticing hey maybe he shouldn't be playing?  Boy we have looked much better when he's out of the lineup over the past 2 year or so, everything works like it's supposed to.

I don't get it and never will.  And my god, stop with the hes been injured excuses.  Everyone get's injured on Arsenal.  RVP was always injured but when he came back he was a World class striker, you either have class or you don't.  At this point we have a massive sample size on him, Ozil and Cazorla and I think we know who the better players are.  

And yes Wilshere is young but it was Arsenal/England fans telling the world how great of a player he IS not WILL BE.

Dnmac4 wrote:

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Boy we have looked much better when he's out of the lineup over the past 2 year or so, everything works like it's supposed to.

By far arsenals two best performances this season, both against Manchester city, were with wilshere on the pitch. Without him, we absolutely crap against Leicester city, but sure, because we had a good 10 minute spell against ASTON VILLA without him you must be right

Dnmac4 wrote:
I don't get it and never will.  And my god, stop with the hes been injured excuses.  Everyone get's injured on Arsenal.  RVP was always injured but when he came back he was a World class striker, you either have class or you don't.  At this point we have a massive sample size on him, Ozil and Cazorla and I think we know who the better players are.  

I know you tend to act hypersensitive about wilshere but please, calm down a second, I mean literally as your reading this take a second and calm down (I'm sure the rage is already building). Just think for a moment, who else at arsenal "where everyone gets injured" has missed 14 months in one go? Who else has then had to have a second operation on their ankle after they returned to form? Who else then broke their ankle AGAIN after returning to form again?

It's really simple man, long term injury + reoccurring injuries = Inconsistent form. Put the forthcoming rant on hold for a moment, and just try and think about that reasonably!

Dnmac4 wrote:

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Yea, I mean I've done my fair share of knocking the lad which IMO was justified as there were a lot of Arsenal and other fans overrating him to the worst degree.

Saying he could walk into any midfield in the world and even one thread compared him to Messi (To be fair a lot of Arsenal fans thought the poster was off-base but not on the walk into any midfield one) and saying he's world class.  I would say 80-90% in one thread said he was better than Yaya Toure again this was a while ago.  

But still I think most have come to the conclusion that at best he's a decent player and at worst he destroys Arsenal's formation and badly effects a Midfield that really should be very good.  Not to mention the guy doesn't have a position, I mean what position does he play?  

IMO Benching Cazorla and moving Ozil out wide to fit Wilshere in the team is pure insanity.

Ozil when on form actually is World class.

It's even gotten to a point where I've been told I hate British players but I can't really think of any others that I bash?  I like Ox, Rooney, Walcott, Sterling.  I got bashed on here 2 years ago for saying Sturridge was 10 times the youth prospect Wilshere was.  The only other England player I may bash from time to time is Gerrard because the guy hawks PK's from everyone else on the team I think 11 out of 13 goals last year were PK's which he didn't win. I'm not saying he's not good but as people will see this year playing in multiple competitions, he's not close to the player he used to be.

All I ask is why doesn't Wilshere stand up to the same scrutiny others do?  I saw everyone on Arsenal's team and Ozil to a massive extent get blamed for the Dortmond game except Wilshere.  And he was terrible the midfield was like it wasn't there and if played correctly I would say Arsenal have the players to match up to Dortmond's midfield maybe even better ones (again if played correctly).

Then I go into Arsenal's section yesterday and see posts like, "the game was great we got to rest Wilshere."  And many others to the same effect not once noticing hey maybe he shouldn't be playing?  Boy we have looked much better when he's out of the lineup over the past 2 year or so, everything works like it's supposed to.

I don't get it and never will.  And my god, stop with the hes been injured excuses.  Everyone get's injured on Arsenal.  RVP was always injured but when he came back he was a World class striker, you either have class or you don't.  At this point we have a massive sample size on him, Ozil and Cazorla and I think we know who the better players are.  

And yes Wilshere is young but it was Arsenal/England fans telling the world how great of a player he IS not WILL BE.

Not even Antonio Salieri obsessed over Mozart as much as you seem to obsess over Wilshere

Dnmac4 wrote:

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Yea, I mean I've done my fair share of knocking the lad which IMO was justified as there were a lot of Arsenal and other fans overrating him to the worst degree.

Saying he could walk into any midfield in the world and even one thread compared him to Messi (To be fair a lot of Arsenal fans thought the poster was off-base but not on the walk into any midfield one) and saying he's world class.  I would say 80-90% in one thread said he was better than Yaya Toure again this was a while ago.  

It was me dmnac. I dont agree with u. Not on wilshere.  He will be the best player in no10 position in whole wide world.  Provided he plays as a no 10. He doesnt play there so I cant say anything.  You should wait longer. You will be proved wrong.

VendettaRed07 wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Yea, I mean I've done my fair share of knocking the lad which IMO was justified as there were a lot of Arsenal and other fans overrating him to the worst degree.

Saying he could walk into any midfield in the world and even one thread compared him to Messi (To be fair a lot of Arsenal fans thought the poster was off-base but not on the walk into any midfield one) and saying he's world class.  I would say 80-90% in one thread said he was better than Yaya Toure again this was a while ago.  

But still I think most have come to the conclusion that at best he's a decent player and at worst he destroys Arsenal's formation and badly effects a Midfield that really should be very good.  Not to mention the guy doesn't have a position, I mean what position does he play?  

IMO Benching Cazorla and moving Ozil out wide to fit Wilshere in the team is pure insanity.

Ozil when on form actually is World class.

It's even gotten to a point where I've been told I hate British players but I can't really think of any others that I bash?  I like Ox, Rooney, Walcott, Sterling.  I got bashed on here 2 years ago for saying Sturridge was 10 times the youth prospect Wilshere was.  The only other England player I may bash from time to time is Gerrard because the guy hawks PK's from everyone else on the team I think 11 out of 13 goals last year were PK's which he didn't win. I'm not saying he's not good but as people will see this year playing in multiple competitions, he's not close to the player he used to be.

All I ask is why doesn't Wilshere stand up to the same scrutiny others do?  I saw everyone on Arsenal's team and Ozil to a massive extent get blamed for the Dortmond game except Wilshere.  And he was terrible the midfield was like it wasn't there and if played correctly I would say Arsenal have the players to match up to Dortmond's midfield maybe even better ones (again if played correctly).

Then I go into Arsenal's section yesterday and see posts like, "the game was great we got to rest Wilshere."  And many others to the same effect not once noticing hey maybe he shouldn't be playing?  Boy we have looked much better when he's out of the lineup over the past 2 year or so, everything works like it's supposed to.

I don't get it and never will.  And my god, stop with the hes been injured excuses.  Everyone get's injured on Arsenal.  RVP was always injured but when he came back he was a World class striker, you either have class or you don't.  At this point we have a massive sample size on him, Ozil and Cazorla and I think we know who the better players are.  

And yes Wilshere is young but it was Arsenal/England fans telling the world how great of a player he IS not WILL BE.

Not even Antonio Salieri obsessed over Mozart as much as you seem to obsess over Wilshere

Salieri was not obsessed over Mozart. That is a common myth perpetuated by a fictional film. In fact, Salieri greatly mourned Mozart, and he was considered a great composer by his own right.

Dnmac4 wrote:

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Yea, I mean I've done my fair share of knocking the lad which IMO was justified as there were a lot of Arsenal and other fans overrating him to the worst degree.

Saying he could walk into any midfield in the world and even one thread compared him to Messi (To be fair a lot of Arsenal fans thought the poster was off-base but not on the walk into any midfield one) and saying he's world class.  I would say 80-90% in one thread said he was better than Yaya Toure again this was a while ago.  

But still I think most have come to the conclusion that at best he's a decent player and at worst he destroys Arsenal's formation and badly effects a Midfield that really should be very good.  Not to mention the guy doesn't have a position, I mean what position does he play?  

IMO Benching Cazorla and moving Ozil out wide to fit Wilshere in the team is pure insanity.

Ozil when on form actually is World class.

It's even gotten to a point where I've been told I hate British players but I can't really think of any others that I bash?  I like Ox, Rooney, Walcott, Sterling.  I got bashed on here 2 years ago for saying Sturridge was 10 times the youth prospect Wilshere was.  The only other England player I may bash from time to time is Gerrard because the guy hawks PK's from everyone else on the team I think 11 out of 13 goals last year were PK's which he didn't win. I'm not saying he's not good but as people will see this year playing in multiple competitions, he's not close to the player he used to be.

All I ask is why doesn't Wilshere stand up to the same scrutiny others do?  I saw everyone on Arsenal's team and Ozil to a massive extent get blamed for the Dortmond game except Wilshere.  And he was terrible the midfield was like it wasn't there and if played correctly I would say Arsenal have the players to match up to Dortmond's midfield maybe even better ones (again if played correctly).

Then I go into Arsenal's section yesterday and see posts like, "the game was great we got to rest Wilshere."  And many others to the same effect not once noticing hey maybe he shouldn't be playing?  Boy we have looked much better when he's out of the lineup over the past 2 year or so, everything works like it's supposed to.

I don't get it and never will.  And my god, stop with the hes been injured excuses.  Everyone get's injured on Arsenal.  RVP was always injured but when he came back he was a World class striker, you either have class or you don't.  At this point we have a massive sample size on him, Ozil and Cazorla and I think we know who the better players are.  

And yes Wilshere is young but it was Arsenal/England fans telling the world how great of a player he IS not WILL BE.

Wilshere is probably the best No10 in Europe after Silva. As for Ozil v Wilshere, English are usually better than Germans in the PL anyway cos you need heart and grit to make it.

OK, I need not post anything more but these comments from Arsenal fans.

DuringTheWar wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:

httredskins47 wrote:Agreed, Wilshere is not a good enough player to be starter on a team contending for titles.

Boy we have looked much better when he's out of the lineup over the past 2 year or so, everything works like it's supposed to.

By far arsenals two best performances this season, both against Manchester city, were with wilshere on the pitch. Without him, we absolutely crap against Leicester city, but sure, because we had a good 10 minute spell against ASTON VILLA without him you must be right

Dnmac4 wrote:
I don't get it and never will.  And my god, stop with the hes been injured excuses.  Everyone get's injured on Arsenal.  RVP was always injured but when he came back he was a World class striker, you either have class or you don't.  At this point we have a massive sample size on him, Ozil and Cazorla and I think we know who the better players are.  

I know you tend to act hypersensitive about wilshere but please, calm down a second, I mean literally as your reading this take a second and calm down (I'm sure the rage is already building). Just think for a moment, who else at arsenal "where everyone gets injured" has missed 14 months in one go? Who else has then had to have a second operation on their ankle after they returned to form? Who else then broke their ankle AGAIN after returning to form again?

It's really simple man, long term injury + reoccurring injuries = Inconsistent form. Put the forthcoming rant on hold for a moment, and just try and think about that reasonably!

OK first of all I was bombarded by Arsenal fans telling me that the first game against City didn't count as it was a pre-season game and Cazorla was great in it not so much Wilshere.  Ramsey and Cazorla carried the water for Arsenal that game not Wilshere.  He was subbed off early in the second half.

Second, Leicester seems like a pretty decent side now don't they?  They tied with Everton, Lost away to Chelsea, tied Arsenal, Won away at Stoke and Won at home against United.  

An away draw to them seems like a pretty decent result doesn't it with the way Arsenal's been playing?

Not to mention Cazorla had a good game that game and would have had a great assist had useless Sonogo been able to finish his beautiful chip pass in which was then finished by Alexis.

You brought it up so lets talk about reality here in the games Wilshere has started.

Crystal Palace 2-1
One of Arsenal's wins came against Crystal Palace in which they were held to a draw until they subbed out Wilshere for OX around the 75th minute moved players to there correct positions Cazorla more central Ox giving width and Ramsey saves the day with a last minute goal.  Funny how that happened with you know who out of the game.

Besiktas vs Arsenal- 0-0  Jack in his CM role letting an inferior team get a draw.

2-2 vs Everton.  
Jack starts in the middle pushing Ozil out wide sending Cazorla to the bench, they create very little getting hammered 2-0 and the midfield totally dominated until the 75th minute (sound familiar), Cazorla comes in and this is how the announcer described the goal, "A cheeky back heel from Ozil, a tempting ball in from Cazorla and a firm finish from Ramsey." The whole midfield gets involved to start the comeback and then OG ties it up and they save a point.

Besiktas vs Arsenal- Arsenal Squeeze through with a 1-0 win for a two legged 1-0 which was extremely lucky.  No one really played well, Ba missed a ton of chances over the 180 minutes.  Arsenal looked all sorts of lucky to get by.

Arsenal vs City 2-2- Jack plays the best game I have seen him play in years, easily the best player on the pitch for Arsenal yet they still don't win and tie again in the league which spurs many on to say "Jack is Back" and having a better season then Ramsey even though Ramsey has saved Arsenal's skin multiple times this year already earning them 3-4 points they didn't deserve.

Dortmond vs Arsenal- 2-0- One of the most lopsided games I have ever seen in my life.  The midfield is 100% taken apart and Wilshere playing as the CM looks lost and confused like he's never run a midfield before against a quality opponent and gets run over.  Arsenal fans blame Ozil even though again he's pushed out of position and Santi is relegated to the bench coming in after all the scoring is over and the game finished off.  The score could have been 10-0.

And he didn't play against Villa and the team looks better than it has all season winning 3-0, everyone plays where there supposed to which you summed up as "A good 10 minute Spell against Aston Villa" which again is more of the built in excuse making fans make up for Wilshere.  

If you can sum the Villa game up as a spell of 10 good minutes (let's not forget they didn't let up a goal either which is a first for them in league this year) then hell how many minutes of abject failure and bad play could I sum up looking at the games Wilshere played in?  This is the mindset I'm talking about, trash your teams best performance of the year to defend Jack Wilshere.  It makes no sense what so ever.

Then you have these comments from this last page in this thread alone which honestly I don't even know what to say about.  Frankly they are shocking.

1) "Wilshere is probably the best No10 in Europe after Silva. As for Ozil v Wilshere, English are usually better than Germans in the PL anyway cos you need heart and grit to make it." -Peccadillo (Arsenal fan)

2)"All the Arsenal fans will tell you Wilshere has been more effective than any Arsenal midfielder this year." (w/o Ramsey you would be near the bottom of the table) -Arsenalfaithfull

3)"Unlike Ozil, Wilshere can play in multiple roles..." (I don't think anyone really knows what role Wilshere even plays, Ozil has played in multiple roles for teams winning massive trophies for club and country)- Arsenalfaithfull

4)"It was me dmnac. I dont agree with u. Not on wilshere.  He will be the best player in no10 position in whole wide world." -Boyzis

I mean need I say more?  Either fans lose all there rational thinking powers when discussing him or they are slamming/scapegoating one of there other better players to make him seem good.  I've never seen anything like it before in my life.

If you're going to analyse each game at least do it fairly. In one game you point out we won after wilshere was subbed out, and in the next you blame him for a draw, conveniently leaving out the fact that Aaron Ramsey had been sent off leaving the team playing with 10 men. Double standards much?

Could you explain how it was wilsheres fault arsenals midfield was overrun against Dortmund? Considering he made more successful tackles than the total of both arteta and Ramsey, and had the joint most interceptions. What did you think of Ramsey playing so high up the pitch he left the midfield alone, what did you think of arteta choosing random moments to press forward and leave the defence exposed? Who was giving the ball away most under no pressure? Clue: it wasn't wilshere.

I'd reiterate, our performance against Manchester city in the premier league was our best performance. Better than our performance against aston bloody villa.

How did you fall for peccadillos obvious trolling ?

Arsenalfaithfall didn't say anything ridiculous about wilshere. Wilshere has when fit displayed good performances as a central midfielder, as an attacking midfielder, and as a right sided interior. He is capable of playing multiple roles, but he is wrong about ozil. This season arteta spent most of it injured so far, and Ramsey has been badly off form, so what he said about wilshere being the most effective midfielder is again not ridiculous in any way. In the two most important games so far, the second leg champions league qualifier, and the game against Manchester city, wilshere was clearly the best midfield performer.

DuringTheWar wrote:If you're going to analyse each game at least do it fairly. In one game you point out we won after wilshere was subbed out, and in the next you blame him for a draw, conveniently leaving out the fact that Aaron Ramsey had been sent off leaving the team playing with 10 men. Double standards much?

Could you explain how it was wilsheres fault arsenals midfield was overrun against Dortmund? Considering he made more successful tackles than the total of both arteta and Ramsey, and had the joint most interceptions. What did you think of Ramsey playing so high up the pitch he left the midfield alone, what did you think of arteta choosing random moments to press forward and leave the defence exposed? Who was giving the ball away most under no pressure? Clue: it wasn't wilshere.

I'd reiterate, our performance against Manchester city in the premier league was our best performance. Better than our performance against aston bloody villa.

How did you fall for peccadillos obvious trolling ?

Arsenalfaithfall didn't say anything ridiculous about wilshere. Wilshere has when fit displayed good performances as a central midfielder, as an attacking midfielder, and as a right sided interior. He is capable of playing multiple roles, but he is wrong about ozil. This season arteta spent most of it injured so far, and Ramsey has been badly off form, so what he said about wilshere being the most effective midfielder is again not ridiculous in any way. In the two most important games so far, the second leg champions league qualifier, and the game against Manchester city, wilshere was clearly the best midfield performer.

OK, wow.  Let's just pretend to agree on something's as most Arsenal fans have openly admitted a couple things.

1) When Wilshere starts he generally gets the CM role in which it seems everyone of there midfielders would like to play in.  Fair?

2) Arteta should have been replaced during the window, he wasn't and every midfielder has to deal with him or Flamini playing the DM role.  Fair?

3) And this is a question for you as I really didn't see any other Arsenal fan thinking Jack had a good game against Dortmond.  As the starting CM is it not there job to organize the midfield, stay in position to help on counter attacks and link play from back to front?  Jack didn't do any of that, so what he made some tackles good for him he should the traffic was going right through him all game long.  Of course Ramsey played further up the pitch he can actually score and again everyone has to deal with Arteta so this isn't a special case for Jack.  It's his job to make it work if he is going to be handed the position without ever earning it.  If Dortmond had a clearly superior midfield then I wouldn't even say anything but I generally believe when played in the correct positions Arsenals midfield is just as good.  Ozil and Cazorla are much better at not only playing the position but organizing the whole midfield/keeping players in positions to succeed in too many games when Jack plays there it is total chaos especially against big teams and even Everton as seen in the past couple years.

4)This is a comment, no Jack has not put in good performances in a bunch of different positions.  Like stated previously when he starts he generally gets the role everyone wants to play in.  In fact, I've said this before and I will say it again, I don't think anyone knows really what position he plays.  He's horrendous as a DM, as an attacking Mid he's pretty bad as he doesn't score or assist and he goes on these "trademark" runs where he generally runs really fast with the ball loses it and then has the whole midfield totally out of position plus he goes on droughts for years in these areas of scoring/assisting.  And as a "Right sided Interior" I'm guess that's basically making a fancy way of saying they deployed two CM's and he played on the right side although it's usually with Ramsey and he is really just playing as a CM.

5) This is a quote from you, "In one game you point out we won after wilshere was subbed out, and in the next you blame him for a draw, conveniently leaving out the fact that Aaron Ramsey had been sent off leaving the team playing with 10 men. Double standards much?".  

Yea, there is not much mystery to it and it wasn't just one game there were a couple league games where had he not been taken out Arsenal would be 3-4 points off there current pace and would drop them about 10 spots down the table which is massive seeing as they have only played a couple EPl games.

And Aaron Ramsey saved there ass against Palace and Everton not to mention in the first game against City which they actually won some silverware him and Cazorla were the best players on the park.

Again to pump up Jack you put down Ramsey slamming him for getting sent off against Besiktas.  You fail to mention it was in the 80th minute and the 0-0 draw was basically done and dusted (Because Ba missed so many sitters).  It was still 80 minutes of a Wilshere led midfield being totally pathetic against a midfield they should have dominated if lined up correctly as they had less possession, shots on goal, and shots on target, but no according to you it's Ramsey's fault for getting sent off in the 80th minute.  

So no, there were not double standards.

Did you watch the Everton game?  Did you see the total midfield domination that was going on in that game by an inferior midfield?  I mean the announcers, your fans, everyone was stunned Arsenal took a point away from that game as Cazorla and Co. did in 15 minutes what Jack and his midfield meddled around for 75 minutes getting KILLED.

Dortmond was much of the same stuff. except they are better then Everton and that was one of the worst midfield domination's I had ever seen since the Barca/United CL Finals.  

But you blame everyone but Jack and after the game the English Media and Arsenal fans had a field day destroying Ozil for his patch of bad form when Ozil's patch of bad form seems like a drop in the bucket compared to Wilshere's years of bad performances.

But he gets  pass because well that is what I can't really figure out.

Largely I don't think you understand the role of a CM which I bet is why you think Jack plays great there so often and blame everyone else when his midfield's don't play well.  They are basically the captain of the midfield and they are supposed to keep players in position and link play plus help to stop counter attacks especially when you have a bad DM like they know they do (Hence being part of the Spine of the team).  You give him a total pass on all of it plus his marauding runs that 98% of the time turn into nothing and leave the total heart of the midfield exposed and him badly put of position (this is all the time hence who knows what position he thins he's playing) and since you don't have any problem with your fellow Arsenal fans thinking he's one of the best #10's int he world, do you see Xavi doing this or Rakatic this year, have you ever seen Pirlo do it, Schweinsteiger doesn't make those mistakes, Pjanic doesn't, Vidal does from time to time but he's twice the athlete Jack is and much more disciplined etc etc etc

There is a stark difference between these players and Jack and I could have gone on and on because Jack doesn't know how to organize his midfield, he doesn't link play very well, he's out of position all the time, he really doesn't know what position he's trying to play half the time and generally he is one of the worst finishers/providers in the final 3rd I have ever seen being compared to a World Class player.

He knows the problem yet he continues to argue. What do you want dmnac ? Me and you both know the issues but what we differ at is that you don't want him to play well. I on the other hand see something special in jack. Sometimes you go over broad trying justify things.
I agree to the fact that arsenal suffer because jack cm role is proving difficult for him. Arsenal do suffer with jack in that role. But I don't understand how you can say jack is not a good footballer. You blame wilshere alot although he is not alone the culprit.
Where we disagree is wilshere has talent to become the best in the world.

If arsenal play him CAM today. U will see him like I said. However if they don't I dont know what will happen.

We have to learn to agree on something and disagree on others.

Get off the guys nutsack jeez and if you were dumb enough to fall for the obvious trolling when people said Jack was one of the best no10s in Europe then it says everything about you.

Yes one of the best no10s even though he hardly ever plays in that role at Arsenal....

Yes those posters were not purposely trying to wind you up

julias wrote:Get off the guys nutsack jeez and if you were dumb enough to fall for the obvious trolling when people said Jack was one of the best no10s in Europe then it says everything about you.

Yes one of the best no10s even though he hardly ever plays in that role at Arsenal....

Yes those posters were not purposely trying to wind you up

LOL, OK well if you want to call people dumb than the joke's on you.  How dumb do you have to be to see one of the two people who said this came back on here to back up that claim,

"It was me dmnac. I dont agree with u. Not on wilshere.  He will be the best player in no10 position in whole wide world." - Boyzis

The other Peccadillo said, "Jack has shown the ability to be world class since he was 17".  

I guess he was joking too as people still debate if Neymar is world class, I don't know when Jack ever showed the ability to be World class.  I mean really everyone has a good game once every couple years.

Try reading before you make assumptions and BTW for all those posters I quoted I could go back into Jack Wilshere related threads and find some quotes that are jaw dropping.

I've learned to never assume an Arsenal fan is joking or not serious when talking about Wilshere as there are years of posts on here that make you think some people should be locked up in the looney bin.

Like your posts?

Dnmac4 wrote:

julias wrote:Get off the guys nutsack jeez and if you were dumb enough to fall for the obvious trolling when people said Jack was one of the best no10s in Europe then it says everything about you.

Yes one of the best no10s even though he hardly ever plays in that role at Arsenal....

Yes those posters were not purposely trying to wind you up

LOL, OK well if you want to call people dumb than the joke's on you.  How dumb do you have to be to see one of the two people who said this came back on here to back up that claim,

"It was me dmnac. I dont agree with u. Not on wilshere.  He will be the best player in no10 position in whole wide world." - Boyzis

The other Peccadillo said, "Jack has shown the ability to be world class since he was 17".  

I guess he was joking too as people still debate if Neymar is world class, I don't know when Jack ever showed the ability to be World class.  I mean really everyone has a good game once every couple years.

Try reading before you make assumptions and BTW for all those posters I quoted I could go back into Jack Wilshere related threads and find some quotes that are jaw dropping.

I've learned to never assume an Arsenal fan is joking or not serious when talking about Wilshere as there are years of posts on here that make you think some people should be locked up in the looney bin.

"WILL BE"

"SHOWN ABILITY TO BE"

NOT IS OR CURRENTLY


So your point is invalid anyway and they were still trolling your ass because they love winding you up

English lesson #1

CBarca wrote:Like your posts?

OK, so why don't you show me a quote of mine about Jack Wilshere that would classify me as insane?

Let's look at some quotes from you about Jack Wilshere from one single post:

"He's an amazing dribbler. One of the best in the EPL- for a midfielder" (Laughable) -CBarca

He's also a great passer- among the best in Arsenal easily, and he's certainly part of the top bracket for passing midfielders -(Pure insanity) -CBarca

He doesn't give the ball away cheaply (this one made my stomach hurt I laughed so hard) -CBarca

julias wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:

julias wrote:Get off the guys nutsack jeez and if you were dumb enough to fall for the obvious trolling when people said Jack was one of the best no10s in Europe then it says everything about you.

Yes one of the best no10s even though he hardly ever plays in that role at Arsenal....

Yes those posters were not purposely trying to wind you up

LOL, OK well if you want to call people dumb than the joke's on you.  How dumb do you have to be to see one of the two people who said this came back on here to back up that claim,

"It was me dmnac. I dont agree with u. Not on wilshere.  He will be the best player in no10 position in whole wide world." - Boyzis

The other Peccadillo said, "Jack has shown the ability to be world class since he was 17".  

I guess he was joking too as people still debate if Neymar is world class, I don't know when Jack ever showed the ability to be World class.  I mean really everyone has a good game once every couple years.

Try reading before you make assumptions and BTW for all those posters I quoted I could go back into Jack Wilshere related threads and find some quotes that are jaw dropping.

I've learned to never assume an Arsenal fan is joking or not serious when talking about Wilshere as there are years of posts on here that make you think some people should be locked up in the looney bin.

"WILL BE"

"SHOWN ABILITY TO BE"

NOT IS OR CURRENTLY


So your point is invalid anyway and they were still trolling your ass because they love winding you up

English lesson #1

OK, first let me straight out say I don't know why this was moved from the Mesut Ozil thread?  Pretty much everything I've said has been in reference to why Mesut Ozil isn't performing or why there are double standards to his performances based on how others at the club are treated.

As I said when both him and Cazorla were purchased plus Ramsey turning into form that they are all interconnected as Jack is taking the position they all want to play and he IMO is the worst one out of the group (that's kind of a fact but whatever) and he never really earned it other than being English.

Second and this is in response to you, whom I quoted.  I know it's en vogue now to pretend 80% of Arsenal fans on this site never said the following things:

1)Jack Wilshere is better then Yaya Toure or David Silva
2)Jack Wilshere is world class
3)Jack Wilshere could walk into any midfield in the world except Barca and Bayern
4)Jack Wilshere is one of the 5 best youngsters in the world
5)Jack Wilshere is the best young English player

But they did, it's humiliating but it's true so I understand the sour grapes when people bring it up but to pretend there joking with the track records they have is just to use your word Dumb.

So no, my point isn't invalid as i was just pulling from this thread.  You know as well as everyone else knows I could go back and pull some posts that are flat out insane on this topic, even the ones you think are "invalid" are flat out insane.

One of the guys you are defending as joking around has 2 different threads saying Jack Wilshere is the next Messi and other people in those threads one who's and admin I believe says something to the effect of no he's not Messi he's more like Iniesta.

Why those two names would ever be in the same sentence together blows my mind.

What's going on here?

Does this thread even has a point ?