Ronaldo not being able to adapt to certain different tactics is a myth. A player of his quality is able to play in any system.

sportsczy wrote:Again, that's false.  Other than Pep/Low, the most successful managers out there don't play possession-style football.  Mourinho, Carlo, Simeone, Allegri, Conte, etc.  Also, it took Low literally 8 years to win anything with Germany despite having superior talent.  Heck, they didn't even make the final of a major tournament until WC 2014.

So your premise is that you need to play defensively/pragmatically to be successful.

sportsczy wrote: Are you saying that the ideal at Real Madrid is to play attacking football while not winning trophies?  I completely disagree.  Trophies come first.  AND there's no patience to build the type of style some of you want.  To boot, the super star player on the team is ill-equipped to succeed with such a style.

For all your argument about straw man logic, you do a good job of applying it yourself. If you go back and read my post again, you'll see that I said that the ethos is to win, and to do so playing attractively. Nowhere is there anything playing attractively and not winning. There is also nothing about playing attractively = playing possession-style.

Now if Z's tactics don't achieve that, for whatever reason, they aren't in line with the ethos. Again, where the blame lies, is beyond what anyone of us can tell from the outside. Whether it's trigger happy management, failed transfer strategy, or anything else, the only thing we know is that the tactics on display aren't up to scratch.

My argument is that, in the past 20 years, we have won all but 1 of our major trophies with managers that play conservatively.  It predicts that it is HIGHLY unlikely for Real Madrid to win anything if they opt for an attacking style of football, possession or not.

My premise is to use Real Madrid's historical data over the last 20 years to predict a future outcome.

So my question stands:  Would you prefer to use tactics that have proven, based on the data of the last 20 years, to be unsuccessful in terms of winning trophies for the sake of playing attacking football?  How long do you think a manager lasts if he doesn't win a trophy immediately at Real Madrid?

Btw, you may not be asking for possession/control based football.... but you're the only one in that camp.  

Personally, I hope we can combine effectiveness with style.  However, I just don't think Zidane will risk effectiveness for style.  Any style points have to come from our players becoming so effective in our base tactics that they can then expand upon the rest of it.  It's pragmatic because he knows that, if he doesn't win a trophy in any one year, he will get fired.  Cause and effect.

Btw, you may not be asking for possession/control based football.... but you're the only one in that camp.

That's a bit disingenuous Sports (real name maybe Pierre) considering neither me nor that pos Hala haven't asked for possession/control football. Nor has DoC, VanDeez, Thimmy or Futbol Senior (whoever else can mention themselves) though the other DoC's beef has another story to it.

Since you mentioned Don Vicente, I remember how his team played quite well and you are correct, he had a more conservative approach (or at least that was his intent) and yet, that team played some wickedly good football. Not possession based, not controlled football, just plain old good attacking football. And with that, Madrid under Zidane can be boring to look at it. That is my only real beef with Zidane. Because of what he wants from his players (whatever one wants to describe it), the football lacks imagination and just plain old fun. Take that as you would...

However, when I remember the players Don Vicente had at his disposal, I could imagine if ZZ had the same personnel, we may have seen a different sort of football than what we are seeing now. My opinion anyway.

In any case, this is who Don Vicente had to pick from in his title winning season of 2000-2001:
Illgner, Salgado, Roberto Carlos, Helguera, Hierro, Sanchis, Macca, Raul, Figo, Morientes, Guti, Makalele, Santi Solari, Iker, Cesar Sanchez, Geremi, Flavio Concecaio (who Tito told me he was an actual good player I think), Munitis, Karanka, Tote.

You're right Doc. I'm only referring to people asking for Zidane head right now... not everyone. That was my target with that comment.

The difference between VDB teams and this one was that there were a lot of natural playmakers on that one. Other than Modric, I can't think of one natural playmaker... and I'm being generous with Modric. He's not really a playmaker. But relative to the rest of this Madrid team, he is.

Natural play makers, genuinely excellent wingers, Macca, a superior left back, Makalele, minor differences (:

sportsczy wrote:Personally, I hope we can combine effectiveness with style.  However, I just don't think Zidane will risk effectiveness for style.  Any style points have to come from our players becoming so effective in our base tactics that they can then expand upon the rest of it.  It's pragmatic because he knows that, if he doesn't win a trophy in any one year, he will get fired.  Cause and effect.

On this basis, Z is not suited for the role (which is not to say that I'm calling for his head), at least to the extent that his tactics require a tradeoff between success and playing well, while the club requires there to be no tradeoff.

That's your opinion, not the club's opinion. In my opinion, the club only requires trophies.... style points are more a wish, not a requirement. Flo tried to emphasize style with disastrous effect when he fired VDB, sold Makelele, etc. He's clearly given up on that policy and thankfully so.

Again, the only times we've won anything over the past 20 years were under managers who played conservative tactics. This is irrefutable fact.

[quote="Doc"]

Flavio Concecaio (who Tito told me he was an actual good player I think).

lol, i liked flavio concecaio, guess cos he was a utility player people didn't care much for him. i thought he was absolutely brilliant in his younger days (before madrid), and at madrid, he did his job well.

but yeah the vdb team and this are very different, tough to compare. different formations, different concepts. that aside, if we do get back marcos llorente in the summer (i believe we can recall loan players despite the ban), how well do you guys think he'll improve the team?

will he just improve the depth in that position, or can he actually bring something to offer and really pose a challenge for casemiro? i've watched some of his alaves games, madrid is a different challenge...what do you guys think?

Madrid is basically night to Alaves' day but I think Llorente can make the step up if we are to believe he is a good footballer. Casemiro, Higuain, Marcelo showed that example while pretenders like Gago and Illara found themselves elsewhere unfortunately.

Re: Flavio
I think he played for Deportivo right? I remember him being a very dynamic player in the team before he joined Madrid. As soon as he came to Madrid, injuries upon injuries. And with injuries came lacking any real form.

I have a hard time with very young players at Real Madrid.  Will they get playing time?  If they do, will the expectations and pressure ruin them?  Carvajal went to Bundi and was one of the best RBs there.  So coming back was no problem.  Morata didn't show a whole lot at Juve other than in a few big games... but he definitely showed enough to be a backup at Madrid.  Not thrilled, but ok.  Vasquez is never going to be more than a role player on a big club.  Same with Nacho.  So I'm good on those two staying as well.

With Llorente and Asensio...  i think they have the talent to be very good.  So I'd almost rather they go to a good club somewhere (not mid league fodder) and really play a lot.  If they flourish, then bring them back WITH THE INTENTION of playing them a lot or even start them.

I don't like the idea of very young kids playing backup.  It's a bit of a waste to me.  I'd rather Llorente move to another better club before joining us right away. There's still another step for me.

i'm the same way. unless the youngster is an absolute gem who welcomes the pressure, i'm not too thrilled about them either. but its not necessarily anything against the youngsters, if we have a plan stable enough for them to grow, fine. but to have someone rot on the bench with little chance to gain any first team action in their prime years doesn't always sit well with me...

and its difficult to feature youngsters or nurture them when there is always a managerial merry go round at the club. there needs to be some form of stability for them to blossom into better players and not just bench-warmers for life.

You two guys (Sports and Tito) complain against club even when they are doing exactly what you say you want!!!

This summer marked a very different approach by the club with its kids. They put everyone with talent out on loans to give them playing opportunities to continue their development (except for Odegaard, who likely is going out in January when he will be 18). There are several reasons for this, one that the Castiila team has literally no chance of getting to 2nd level of futbol, thereby not giving the better players a chance to develop. The club is counting on some of these guys if needed during the transfer ban and finally, a recognition that chances of a direct promotion from Castilla to 1st team is a low odds development proposal (for the various reasons you both have outlined).


And on the first team, they questioned all youngers as to whether they would get sufficient playing time or would they be better served to go somewhere were they could play. They questioned Jese, Nacho, Kova and Llorente. In the cases of Nacho and Kova they decided they needed them and they do get a reasonable amount of playing time. Jese did take that route although it ended up a sale (due to Jese insistence), not the loan the club had wanted. And Llorente is living proof of what you have proposed. The issue of course is there is no backup for Casemiro, but much to Sports denial that is because Zidane seems set that Kroos can play the position when needed. I don't agree with that, but he had amble time to go after a better backup and didn't.

They did bring back Morata as they did with Casemiro after he had proven he had developed. Sports you always keep belittling Morata, but he certainly developed enough to be a backup CF as evidence in what he has done thus far this season and the fact that he was strong enough to not only make the NT, but as starter as well. He's not and shouldn't be yet the starter, but it's not his fault the the existing starter is so bad.

So bottom line the only kid we have on team that you are questioning is Asensio. But he was going out on loan again, and he played himself into making team. Whether he stays next season is really up to him, but he IMO is displaying a skill set that we need, but of course is rough around the edges. So his being on the team is attributable to Zidane and if you don't like this then it is indeed a criticism of Zidane not the club!

And finally there is Mariano. He is older than most of the kids from Castilla and was also going out on loan. He was only held onto due to the prolonged problems with Benzema. If Benzema ever does return, he likely will go out on loan in January.

Bill...  I don't trust Benzema.  He's an idiot and he's now injury-prone.  A very bad combo.  My worry with Morata is that he is not one who is talented enough to be a regular at Real Madrid.  I wish we had gone after someone that was, or could develop, into a Madrid-level CF.  Who?  Auba is the first that comes to mind.  If he's too expensive, then make a run at one of the top youth CFs.  Namely, Augustin in France, Gabriel Barbosa of Brazil or Rashford of Man U.  Get one of them.  I'd still bring back Morata... but I'd develop one of these kids too.  Like that, if (or more like when) Benzema isn't available, you have two CFs to cover the spot as opposed to just Morata.

I think it's very poor planning.  Of course, this summer was all about just idiotic planning.  You don't have to go stupid galactico... but you do need to cover your needs and don't go the other extreme which is just as stupid.

The finishing of Morata is not good enough for him to be world class but he has as much qualities as any of those other kids you mentioned if not more. For a CF it really just comes down to finishing. The only two kids that have impressed me with their finishing at CF is Martial and he was playing centre and Gabriel Jesus but he is going to Manchester city.

Morata can improve his finishing like so many did when they were around his age, let's just hope it comes quick

Morata's issue Nick is speed of transition from control to shot in tight spaces.  That's my worry and why I am very skeptical of him... if he had that speed of transition and just wasn't finishing well enough, i wouldn't worry so much.  A lot of kids just shoot blindly when they start out.  With experience, you can fix that.  But his footwork and resulting transition are poor.   I don't remember a lot of players being able to fix that.  You're right though, he has everything else. That's why he does manage to impact things. I just don't feel he can be a good enough scorer though.

But again Sports he was brought back in to be the backup. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that you are finally admitting the Benz needs to be replaced is the real issue here.

I think Morata can improve his finishing, that wasn't one of his main problems in his time with us. His feet are there, the guy is clearly talented. Its his head, I don't think he has the drive and the fight to succeed at a big club as more than a back up, specially not Madrid.

He needs to learn a lot about the CF game with his movement, he never really knows where to be unless he has the ball or running for a counter. Whenever we had to break defenses the hard way and controlled a game, he did nothing. He couldn't hustle with the CB's, he didn't create space with his movement, he just hung around and waited for the ball. That's why he never scored much in the league for us since most of those games we were the dominant team.

Then he would sulk around the pitch cause he wasn't scoring and everything would get worse, that's the main reason I never got into the bandwagon with him.

He can be a very good back if he matures and stays focused even when things get tough, don't know if the high pressure environment at Madrid will be conductive to that.

Isn't Sergio Diaz the new Aguero from Castilla a CF ?

bill, i'm not exactly sure what your point is. i wasn't complaining about anything. someone made a point and i agreed. btw my question on llorente was a legitimate question, not rhetorical. i like to know what certain players bring to the table and why fans want those players. why?

cos at madrid (And several big clubs) every youngster is the next someone; every young striker is the next raul or in sergio diaz' case, according to valk, the next aguero. and it makes me wonder, do we want these guys because they bring something to the table? or is it a case of we just want to brag that we promote....i think llorente's doing well, just wanted to hear others who have watched him give a candid view on whether he has what it takes to at some point actually start

futbol_bill wrote:But again Sports he was brought back in to be the backup. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that you are finally admitting the Benz needs to be replaced is the real issue here.

I agree Bill.  I love him as a backup.  But the problem is that Benzema is not reliable as a regular anymore due to injuries... so you actually need someone who is a regular almost.

If we had Lewandowski then Morata would be perfect for example.

Purchasing Morata back is perfectly fine.  I think we need a 3rd CF is my point because I'm not certain Morata will be good enough if we need to use him for a lot of games.  If Benzema is down, all we have is Morata.  I don't understand that tbh.  It's pretty standard practice to have 3 CFs unless you consider Ronaldo a CF. Maybe the plan is to play Vasquez wide and put Ronaldo in the middle... I actually like Morata better at CF than Ronaldo lol.

@rincon... there's that too.  But the biggest problem at Madrid for Morata before he left and so far this season is his feet.  They're not quick enough.  He's forced to either rush his finishing, gets his shot blocked or misses because it takes him too long to get the ball into a comfortable position for himself.

Morata looks like a poor man's Cavani to me.

Tito, you said you didn't want these kids on club if they were just rotting on bench. That essentially what the changes this summer have mounted to stop this from happening. That's also why Llorente was loaned out.

Whether or not he comes back next year or not, depends upon several factors 1. How well he develops, 2. Can the club survive another year (during a transfer ban) with Casemiro / Kross as DM

He may also go to another (bigger) club than Alaves to further develop. Note - he is not the only one (I believe the number is 12) out there developing and could possibly be returned next season if need arises and they have sufficiently developed. I don't like these comparisons for youngsters, I want a developed talent not the next so and so!

The issues here are not Llorente or Morata or Asensio, it's the lack of recruitment of a backup DM, LB or a replacement for our existing CF. despite what Sports says, that's on Zidane!

Yeah.... because it's a widely known fact that Flo has given his managers power over transfers throughout his 2 stints as president.

I'm going to state an unpopular opinion and say that I do not think Llorente is anywhere near ready for RM, even with the injuries we have.

I went back and watched his matches. Focused purely on him. He is young, but his ability is nothing special. When you compare him to the likes of Weigl or Carvalho he falls way short.

Unfortunately I believe he is another overhyped youngster. Doesn't mean he can't improve, but I think he's at least 2-4 years away from RM quality.

If we can't buy anyone Deez... let's hope he turns out ok lol. That's why I'm focused on him anyhow. He's our only hope!