sportsczy wrote:Good lord dude.  This is in line with your argument that massive injuries and star players being completely off form has no impact on how Real Madrid plays.

Yes, because even when everybody was still fit, we played very bad. You don't want to acknowledge that because you'd rather die than admit Z is tactically inept.

We all have tunnel vision to varying extents based on our opinions...  but let's try and mitigate it a bit with common sense.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion.  You obviously are.  But just because someone tries to sell ice cubes to Eskimos doesn't mean that the Eskimos should buy the ice cubes.

That's funny because the only thing you haven't brought into the discussion is common sense. You said that nobody believed you when you said Z and the director general don't get along, but as always, you didn't provide proof to support your claim.

There's nothing wrong with sharing your opinion with us. It only becomes problematic when you start presenting it as factual.

It's patently obvious that all you're trying to do here, through your imaginary movie plots, is exonerate Z of any blame regarding our poor form and lay all the blame on our non-French players.

You have no idea how many times I read your posts and smiled in disbelief. There's simply no limits to how far you're willing to go to shield Z from criticism and blame, and the stories you make up in the process are comedy gold. It's amazing how it is so easy for you to cook up a factually incorrect story in a split second when the truth doesn't fit your pre-existing views. It's like you're physically and mentally incapable of accepting facts that go against your bias. Just to refresh your memory, here's a couple theories you actually said with a straight face:


1. "Zidane is trying to wrestle the power away from the bureaucrats and put it back with the football people". Movie plot worthy of 5 Oscars.

2.  "Zidane is involved in a battle for power with the traditional Flo cronies". Source: The sportsczy Daily.


And believe me, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are a gazillion other theories of yours scattered all over GL. You make stuff up all the time to support your bias and you have no idea how damaging that is to your reputation as a poster. The latest one is "Zidane and Jose Angel Sanchez have problems". And you made it up so that we don't blame Z for Llorente's departure. Like I said, you'd say anything to shift the blame from him.

Just once in a while, try to be honest with yourself and call it like it is. Yes, Z is to blame for us not going after a back-up for Case. No, Llorente wasn't loaned out against Z's will. Yes, we're playing like crap and something has to be done. Yes, Z is tactically clueless. No, injuries aren't to blame because we played almost as bad when everybody was fit. Yes, Benzema is injury-prone, lazy and useless. He didn't participate in the euros, yet he showed up injured in the training camp.

Just try it, you'll see how satisfying and fulfilling it is to always say the truth no matter what.

Saying Z is tactically is tactically clueless isn't the truth though. Would more say naive that clueless but I really like to remind myself the man is really a noob in the coaching world.

How long has he been officially a top flight coach? 9, 10 months?

True, he lacks experience, but it shouldn't be an excuse. He's a professional certified coach; I'd like to believe he's competent enough to come up with a tactical plan, and not just rely on crosses and individual quality to save his day.

He has been managing Madrid for 9 months and he still hasn't fixed one problem yet. I'd even go as far as to say that this Madrid side is not too dissimilar from Rafa's, and as fans, it's unbelievably irritating to see the same problems week in and week out without the slightest sign that he's even trying to fix them.

As things stand, we have exactly the same winning stats as Rafa's Madrid (4 wins and three draws) in the league, and I remember everybody, including myself, didn't make excuses for Rafa and we were ripping him to shreds every single week. I don't see why Z should get any special treatment.

If he keeps playing like this, the criticism will keep raining down on him. If we improve, I'll be one of the first in line to stand up and clap for him.

When were we all fit this season DoC?

To start the season, Pepe, Benzema and Ronaldo were injured.  Modric returned from injury for the first game of the season.  Once Pepe, Benzema and Ronaldo returned...  Marcelo, Modric and Casemiro got injuried.  Pepe and Benzema were never healthy even when they returned and now they're injured again (although Benzema seems like he'll be ok given the international break).

So yeah...  please tell me when we had a relatively healthy squad?

So we've been healthy at some point this season Bill? Can you point me to the game? Maybe 1 actually when Ronaldo returned. Any more?

Prove me wrong please.

He has fixed a few issues with the squad (if you wanna call it issues). Well, more like one or two stuff. Our squad actually can last a full 90 minutes physically. We gathered a real belief in ourselves as a team to not feel a game is over until it is actual over. The squad is relatively scandal free and players are content with their roles for now (that would certainly change though so take that one with a pinch of salt).

Tactic wise, sigh, I wanna believe he is able to adjust and adapt with the squad he has in relation to the opposition but for all the conservative approach and good man management, we really lack any real imagination and attacking flair. Something that is usually associated with Madrid and Spanish football in general.

In essence, I'm trying to remain positive in all this considering my natural Madridismo reaction would be to overreact. I do see what Nick and yourself (DoC) are saying and with that same thought, Sports has a point in that we do not have a full healthy squad.

That being said, we are tied for 1st in La Liga and this is still a Llorente thread.

I think we'll be fine once Modric and Casemiro return.  Those two are the most important absences.  As the beginning of the seasons showed, we can work even with all of 1 of BBC out.

We just don't have any CMs outside of the starting 3.  The backups are AMs.  That's the problem.

My big beef is that the summer transfer window was a disaster imo... and you can blame this on everyone tbh from Zidane, Flo, Sanchez, etc.  Just didn't get it done.  Even if you have disagreements on who you should buy and/or sell, fill the holes ffs.  Depth at CM was a problem last season but we managed to stay mostly healthy to finish the season...  we tried our luck twice and it's ran out so far.

sportsczy wrote:When were we all fit this season DoC?

By "all" what do you mean exactly? Because it seems to me that when Ronaldo is playing, you create a new thread and say "he needs to go", but when he's out injured, you use his absence as an excuse for our poor play. Make up your mind, mate.

Basically, when there's someone out injured, you claim we're playing bad because they're not with us. And when they come back you claim they're the reason for our poor play because they're just coming back from injury.

It's October, mate. Bale and Ronaldo are fit now. The only player dragging us down right now is your countrymen who, despite spending all summer on his sofa, managed somehow to get himself injured.

And the Sporting game which we played at home is enough evidence that we suck. BBC in attack, Modric-Kroos-Case in midfield and Carvajal-Varane-Ramos-Marcelo at the back. And we were going to lose that game hadn't Ronaldo and Morata (who replaced that joke Benzema) stepped up.

But then again, you're probably going to say that we played bad because our guys were just coming back from injury.

No, mate, we're playing bad because our manager has no freaking clue what to do. Our guys are goating with their NTs, they only seem to suck when they're playing under the guidance of Z.

okie dokie.  Let's just drop it.  I completely disagree with your arguments (to the point where I think they're nonsensical) although I agree we don't play sexy football.  

Mourinho, Carlo and Rafa all suffered big time when the team had injuries yet I'm pretty sure at least 2 out of those 3 weren't "tactically clueless" as you put it.

Which begs the question:  Which recent manager has shown this great tactical acumen in the face of injuries and players being in bad form?  As I recall, Mourinho lost the locker room and couldn't get players to play up to form in his 3rd season.  Carlo burnt our squad to the ground leading to injuries...and we dropped points like crazy while playing like crap to end both his seasons in La Liga.  Rafa... he never had a good moment with Madrid so there's nothing to talk about

Who are we comparing Zidane to exactly?

Any half-decent manager would be able to beat Eibar at home with a squad like that.

What's undeniable and painfully sad, is that we seem to struggle now against the weakest teams, and even at home. Teams that before we used to wipe the floor with.

Z has brought with him a weak mentality where we wait until we fall behind in score to attack and are content with 1-0 leads.

Z had enough talent to bury Eibar, Villarreal, Las Palmas and Dortmund. And he had enough talent to annihilate Sporting in the first half. But the problem is we always play poorly, we always struggle, and this, regardless of whom Z play.

At some point, I think you should consider the possibility that the main problem stems from Z.

You're speaking as if all of our past managers only lost against top tier opponents.

Have you watched us play the past 10 years?

It hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows.

The manager who played arguably the most beautiful attacking football lost 4-0 against alcorcon, a 3rd division team.

Not to mention Deez that our most successful recent era was under VDB, who played conservatively. Our La Liga titles after VDB happened under Capello, Schuster and Mourinho. Two of those three played extreme defensive football.

And the Schuster team lost to AS Roma in the first knockout round in CL... and to Mallorca (7th place La Liga) in the round of 16 of CDR.

Again, all data shows that this debate is absolute nonsense... but let them run with it.

What data other than 4 draws in a row is relevant.?

This is getting funny really. Before everything was fine because we were winning , now everything is fine after draw galore against some of the weakest teams out there.

Barcelona fuked up is the only saving grace but they have won like Last 6 la ligas they have the right to be complacent.

No, trust me, even if Barça had won their game, resulting in us becoming third, they would've still come up with an excuse to help them sleep at night.

And make no mistake, if we keep playing like this, we'll become third. Atlético has already caught up with us, and Barça, once Messi gets back, will get back to winning ways.

But let them gloat about still being top, Rafa said the same thing.

We're not even half way through the season and you guys are making it seem like the league is over, and all is lost.

@demon, you have still yet to post a realistic and better option to replace Zidane, so until you do I don't think I will respond to your posts. They are starting to come off as baseless whiney drivel.

Honestly no one has put forth a better option that I proposed to all of the whiners. I posed this question weeks ago and still no response.

Ok, first of all, you don't get to brush aside the criticism for Z just because we're not giving you his replacement. The criticism stands, and its validity is not predicated on whether or not we give you his replacement.

With that out of the way, let me remind you, that as of yet, I still haven't called for Z's head. But I believe it's within my right to voice my discontent of his performance as head coach, and this, without having to give you alternatives as to whom should succeed him.

What may be perceived as "baseless, whiny drivel" to you is in fact valid criticism supported by strong arguments drawn out from countless disappointing performances.

Heavy reliance on crosses, lack of offensive plan, cluelessness in the final third, being dominated by teams even at home and regardless of their caliber, lack of intensity, lack of creativity, no chance creation from the middle,... and yet you call it baseless?

If you don't want to hear any criticism for Z, that's your thing. But don't try to shut it down just because we haven't given you his replacement. That would be unscrupulous.

The day I start calling for his head, I'll give you his replacement. But until then, I have every right to say that this man is clueless. And until proven otherwise, I'll continue to do so. Thank you.

It's fine to criticize but all everyone has been doing has been moaning. No one has found a better replacement, no one has formulated a plan of action, no one has put forth anything constructive. It's just complaining.

vanDEEZ wrote:It's fine to criticize but all everyone has been doing has been moaning. No one has found a better replacement, no one has formulated a plan of action, no one has put forth anything constructive. It's just complaining.

Except everyone have been saying less crossing, more positional play, better ball retention in our own half, more play through center and did I say stop sitting back after every damn goal? . You need to learn to read instead of skipping over every post if you haven't found any plan of action.

sportsczy wrote:Not to mention Deez that our most successful recent era was under VDB, who played conservatively. Our La Liga titles after VDB happened under Capello, Schuster and Mourinho. Two of those three played extreme defensive football.

And the Schuster team lost to AS Roma in the first knockout round in CL... and to Mallorca (7th place La Liga) in the round of 16 of CDR.

Again, all data shows that this debate is absolute nonsense... but let them run with it.

Is your premise that the only way to be successful/successful in the league is to play defensively/pragmatically?

No.  People here are saying that Zidane is unfit to be Real Madrid's manager because he doesn't play attacking football stylistically.  The point I'm making is that our success since the mid 90s when VDB took over has almost only happened under managers that play similarly conservative styles to Zidane.  

So when they say that this is not Real Madrid football...  it's patently false.  It's been the only football that has worked for us over the past 20 years.

Second argument I'm making is that the past 3 managers...  Mourinho, Carlo and Rafa...  also preach this tactical and conservative defensive style.  They're not managers who teach possession-based football.  So we basically haven't had a proper manager since Pellegrini?

Just refuting this premise.

Part of the ethos of the club (whether valid or not) is that we win, and we do so by playing attractively. Just because our recent success hasn't lived up to this, it doesn't mean that the ideal should change.

The difficulty is that this pressure is often what leads to short termist decisions being taken. ie. firing a manager without giving them a chance to succeed, or selling players without giving them the opportunity to show their worth.

Without knowledge about the inner workings of the club, none of us can say where the ultimate blame for this lies. What we can say is that, based on what we see, Z's tactics don't live up to this.

Again, that's false.  Other than Pep/Low, the most successful managers out there don't play possession-style football.  Mourinho, Carlo, Simeone, Allegri, Conte, etc.  Also, it took Low literally 8 years to win anything with Germany despite having superior talent.  Heck, they didn't even make the final of a major tournament until WC 2014.

Are you saying that the ideal at Real Madrid is to play attacking football while not winning trophies?  I completely disagree.  Trophies come first.  AND there's no patience to build the type of style some of you want.  To boot, the super star player on the team is ill-equipped to succeed with such a style.

What you people want is completely unrealistic, Zidane or no Zidane, until Ronaldo leaves AND we change our club's policy of firing the manager as soon as a major trophy isn't won.

sportsczy wrote:Again, that's false.  Other than Pep/Low, the most successful managers out there don't play possession-style football.  Mourinho, Carlo, Simeone, Allegri, Conte, etc.  Also, it took Low literally 8 years to win anything with Germany despite having superior talent.  Heck, they didn't even make the final of a major tournament until WC 2014.

Are you saying that the ideal at Real Madrid is to play attacking football while not winning trophies?  I completely disagree.  Trophies come first.  AND there's no patience to build the type of style some of you want.  To boot, the super star player on the team is ill-equipped to succeed with such a style.

What you people want is completely unrealistic, Zidane or no Zidane, until Ronaldo leaves AND we change our club's policy of firing the manager as soon as a major trophy isn't won.

I have to agree with sportsczy here. The club's transfer policy (players and managers) is foolish. There is no denying that.

We have sold some great players and we have signed some incompetent managers.

What I gleaned from the discussion, sportsczy, is that people think Zidane last season was a fluke and he wont be able to replicate it this season.

Ronaldo not being able to adapt to certain different tactics is a myth. A player of his quality is able to play in any system.