Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

by jibers Sun May 03, 2015 5:12 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Well,it plays a major role in the legacy of a player.A player like Suarez deserves to win it atleast once.I think he is an all time great.
Last season as the main man of Liverpool,he was magical and playing at Messi level.The goals he scored,the dribbling,the link up, the desire.He was unplayable most of the time like Messi.
I have seen 4 maybe 5 players play at the level Suarez did last season.He was that good.The mark of how great he was can be gauged by the fact that he almost took Liverpool to the title.They would have won had Gerrard not slipped.
Take Suarez out and they have looked nowhere near title contenders.They added a lot of players but all of them cannot add up to Suarez.
Sometimes the value of a player can be measured by looking at the team without him.With Suarez,Liverpool looked brilliant and extraordinary.Without him,they look ordinary.

Coming to us,when he joined,I was confident he would do well.There were naysayers but I was confident.I didnt think he would be as brilliant as at Liverpool.The team wouldnt be built around him since Messi is top dog.He gets far less touches of the ball and is no longer the go to man.He is the third wheel in attack behind Messi and Neymar.
As has been shown time and again,it is almost impossible for elite players to shine under such circumstances.
And yet,Suarez has not only shined but far exceeded expectations.In a completely new role,being asked to play as the target man and reference point in attack,he has been brilliant.He has given us a plan B which we have been craving for all these years.He has made us dangerous against PTB teams.He was the single biggest reason we won so comfortably in the triple header against Atletico.Our best player in the big games this season.Also scored some outstanding goals in his short stay.I think all of our best 5 goals this season have been scored by him.
He showed last season that he can perform at an elite level as the main man of a team.This season,he has proved that he can perform at an elite level as the third wheel and in a completely different role.
Just a champion player with a champion mentality.
He is a level above CR.For me,if Messi is 1A,then Suarez is 1B.

Interesting. So what do you reckon Xavi's legacy will be? Legacy is all good and well but the average football fan and most footballers are clueless about the sport. The Ballon D'Farce has been a joke for a long time. It is now a popularity contest that also acts as some pseudo golden boot award.

I have never been a fan of inidivual awards as I feel it detracts from the team. Suarez is one of the best players on the planet no doubt. He brings a certain individual solution that most top forwards cannot. Lewa, Benzema, RVP, Costa, post 06 Rooney are all great but Suarez is the only one that is a fantasisti and can solve complcated defences. Aguero can be thrown in there I feel. I disagree with you on the 1b comparison though. Messi is by far the most lethal attacking player in the final third in terms of attacking. It is an unfair comparison.

by free_cat Mon May 04, 2015 7:49 am

He is a great player, but definitely not Messi.

by Myesyats Mon May 04, 2015 8:38 am

free_cat wrote:He is a great player, but definitely not Messi.

Yeah. I was suprised when I saw the comparision. Suarez is a great goalscorer but Messi is unique.

by free_cat Mon May 04, 2015 10:37 am

Suarez is a bit above Eto'o, but there are like two steps to reach Messi from there.

by alexjanosik Mon May 04, 2015 3:48 pm

I dont think he is 2 levels below Messi.I watched Liverpool extensively last season and he was performing at Messi level.
An Eto'o level player(as free claims) doesnt drag Liverpool almost to the title.It takes a very special player and Suarez is that special.As the main man,he proved that he can play at that level.Whats more,he has proven he can also do it for his national team.Unlike Messi,Suarez plays brilliantly at NT level also.Among the top stars,Suarez is the player who has shone the most for his national team.He far outperforms both Messi and CR for the national team.
I think that has to do with his versatility.As he has shown this season,he can play at an elite level in many different roles.He has played this season as a target man and with his back to goal and excelled at it.
Is Messi better than him in some areas?Undoubtedly yes.Messi is a better dribbler and passer.But Suarez is better than Messi in some areas too.He is more unpredictable than Messi which means that sometimes he is more difficult to defend against.
That is also evident in the kind of goals he scores.Take the volley goal he scored last week.Very unpredictable and a sublime goal.A goal Messi will never attempt.Messi would have attempted to take a touch first,bring the ball down and then attempt a shot.
Suarez has that unpredictable genius about him that Ronnie had.Not as refined but in a more rugged sort of way.
IMO,Suarez is Messi level.

by Myesyats Mon May 04, 2015 3:55 pm

alexjanosik wrote:I dont think he is 2 levels below Messi.I watched Liverpool extensively last season and he was performing at Messi level.

Meh. Not even close, mate. I respect your opinion but he's never been close to Messi, no one is.

by alexjanosik Mon May 04, 2015 3:59 pm

That is ok.Opinions can differ but I object to the not even close bit.Since the turn of the year,he has performed just as well as Messi.
He has also outperformed Messi in the big games this season.Why exactly is Suarez not even close to Messi.Curious to know your opinion.

by Myesyats Mon May 04, 2015 4:05 pm

alexjanosik wrote:That is ok.Opinions can differ but I object to the not even close bit.Since the turn of the year,he has performed just as well as Messi.
He has also outperformed Messi in the big games this season.Why exactly is Suarez not even close to Messi.Curious to know your opinion.

Messi is the heart of our team. We don't perform even half as good without him. He usually has around 4 key passes every game and scores tons of goals (much more than Suarez) even though playing deep in the middle or out on the wing most of the time. Don't get me wrong, Suarez is a WONDERFUL player but Messi is always that 2 steps ahead of every player.

by alexjanosik Mon May 04, 2015 4:11 pm

Welcome to the forum.Appreciate your views.Although I am not sure about the far more goals bit.It would be interesting to see the goals per minute ratio.I dont think Suarez would be far behind.Also have to keep in mind that Suarez doesnt take penalties and freekicks.
Freekicks is another area Suarez is better at.

by Myesyats Mon May 04, 2015 4:18 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Welcome to the forum.Appreciate your views.Although I am not sure about the far more goals bit.It would be interesting to see the goals per minute ratio.I dont think Suarez would be far behind.Also have to keep in mind that Suarez doesnt take penalties and freekicks.
Freekicks is another area Suarez is better at.

Thanks. It's a nice place here.

'Much' is probably a hyperbole but still Messi scores more playing usually far away from goal. Leo is a better all around player, he's an outstanding playmaker and an unusual goalscorer. Those topics are always very debatable but sorry, Messi is an alien.

by Vicious Culé Mon May 04, 2015 10:45 pm

I see you've joined up here too linetty.

DonAK here.

by Myesyats Tue May 05, 2015 6:48 am

Vicious Culé wrote:I see you've joined up here too linetty.

DonAK here.

Yeah. Had to get away from that grade A c*nt (a certain admin of a certain website). Laughing

Urse already told me everything and I know it's you behind a different nickname. Pacp joined up as well btw.

by neuro11 Tue May 05, 2015 7:29 am

linetty wrote:
Vicious Culé wrote:I see you've joined up here too linetty.

DonAK here.

Yeah. Had to get away from that grade A c*nt (a certain admin of a certain website).

Urse already told me everything and I know it's you behind a different nickname. Pacp joined up as well btw.

where are you guyz coming from Rolling Eyes

seems like your town has been attacked by dron or something :coffee:

...
anyway welcome Thumbs up

by free_cat Tue May 05, 2015 9:40 am

alexjanosik wrote:I dont think he is 2 levels below Messi.I watched Liverpool extensively last season and he was performing at Messi level.
An Eto'o level player(as free claims) doesnt drag Liverpool almost to the title.It takes a very special player and Suarez is that special.As the main man,he proved that he can play at that level.Whats more,he has proven he can also do it for his national team.Unlike Messi,Suarez plays brilliantly at NT level also.Among the top stars,Suarez is the player who has shone the most for his national team.He far outperforms both Messi and CR for the national team.
I think that has to do with his versatility.As he has shown this season,he can play at an elite level in many different roles.He has played this season as a target man and with his back to goal and excelled at it.
Is Messi better than him in some areas?Undoubtedly yes.Messi is a better dribbler and passer.But Suarez is better than Messi in some areas too.He is more unpredictable than Messi which means that sometimes he is more difficult to defend against.
That is also evident in the kind of goals he scores.Take the volley goal he scored last week.Very unpredictable and a sublime goal.A goal Messi will never attempt.Messi would have attempted to take a touch first,bring the ball down and then attempt a shot.
Suarez has that unpredictable genius about him that Ronnie had.Not as refined but in a more rugged sort of way.
IMO,Suarez is Messi level.

An Eto'o level player (Eto'o actually) dragged Inter to a treble, after winning a treble with Barça. Only player who has won 2 trebles, and consecutive.

All those strengths you mention from Suarez are real (unpredictable, versatile, NT...), and I would also add that he is better than Messi at pressing and mentality wise.

But Messi's strenghts are more important than Suarez's for a forward. He has twice the vision, passing and dribling than Suarez's and is also a better finisher. The thing is that Messi is an impossible footballer. I don't know of any player in history who can create so many chances for his teammates while being the world's no1 scorer and, at the same time, score so much playing so far away from the box.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue May 05, 2015 10:53 am

Not to mention Messi has incredible touch and control where as Suarez sometimes has that "premier league " control where he lets the ball roll out from under his feet.

It's quite important when it comes to build up and sustaining attacks in tight spaces.

by free_cat Tue May 05, 2015 11:47 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Not to mention Messi has incredible touch and control where as Suarez sometimes has that "premier league " control where he lets the ball roll out from under his feet.

It's quite important when it comes to build up and sustaining attacks in tight spaces.

True, Suarez's first touch and control is somewhat lacking, but most of the times he makes it up with his fighting mentality, as Eto'o did.

by jibers Tue May 05, 2015 12:49 pm

alexjanosik wrote:I dont think he is 2 levels below Messi.I watched Liverpool extensively last season and he was performing at Messi level.
An Eto'o level player(as free claims) doesnt drag Liverpool almost to the title.It takes a very special player and Suarez is that special.As the main man,he proved that he can play at that level.Whats more,he has proven he can also do it for his national team.Unlike Messi,Suarez plays brilliantly at NT level also.Among the top stars,Suarez is the player who has shone the most for his national team.He far outperforms both Messi and CR for the national team.
I think that has to do with his versatility.As he has shown this season,he can play at an elite level in many different roles.He has played this season as a target man and with his back to goal and excelled at it.
Is Messi better than him in some areas?Undoubtedly yes.Messi is a better dribbler and passer.But Suarez is better than Messi in some areas too.He is more unpredictable than Messi which means that sometimes he is more difficult to defend against.
That is also evident in the kind of goals he scores.Take the volley goal he scored last week.Very unpredictable and a sublime goal.A goal Messi will never attempt.Messi would have attempted to take a touch first,bring the ball down and then attempt a shot.
Suarez has that unpredictable genius about him that Ronnie had.Not as refined but in a more rugged sort of way.
IMO,Suarez is Messi level.

When you put it like that I understand what you are getting at. TBH I see Suarez as the south american Thomas Muller. Sometimes they look clumsy but the end result is the same. Let me put it this way, if I had to pick a #9 for my time I would pick Suarez over Messi for the reasons you said. Then again what makes any player better than another? I think Messi has more ball absolute talent (ball control, first touch, dribbling at full speed and ability to play better passes) than Suarez, but Suarez is far more versatile and can adapt better to changes in environment hence his better NT record than Messi's.

What I will say is that Suarez is the only striker in the last decade that can solve complications through individual action. I'm comparing him to the R9s, van Bastens of the the football world.

free_cat wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I dont think he is 2 levels below Messi.I watched Liverpool extensively last season and he was performing at Messi level.
An Eto'o level player(as free claims) doesnt drag Liverpool almost to the title.It takes a very special player and Suarez is that special.As the main man,he proved that he can play at that level.Whats more,he has proven he can also do it for his national team.Unlike Messi,Suarez plays brilliantly at NT level also.Among the top stars,Suarez is the player who has shone the most for his national team.He far outperforms both Messi and CR for the national team.
I think that has to do with his versatility.As he has shown this season,he can play at an elite level in many different roles.He has played this season as a target man and with his back to goal and excelled at it.
Is Messi better than him in some areas?Undoubtedly yes.Messi is a better dribbler and passer.But Suarez is better than Messi in some areas too.He is more unpredictable than Messi which means that sometimes he is more difficult to defend against.
That is also evident in the kind of goals he scores.Take the volley goal he scored last week.Very unpredictable and a sublime goal.A goal Messi will never attempt.Messi would have attempted to take a touch first,bring the ball down and then attempt a shot.
Suarez has that unpredictable genius about him that Ronnie had.Not as refined but in a more rugged sort of way.
IMO,Suarez is Messi level.

An Eto'o level player (Eto'o actually) dragged Inter to a treble, after winning a treble with Barça. Only player who has won 2 trebles, and consecutive.

All those strengths you mention from Suarez are real (unpredictable, versatile, NT...), and I would also add that he is better than Messi at pressing and mentality wise.

But Messi's strenghts are more important than Suarez's for a forward. He has twice the vision, passing and dribling than Suarez's and is also a better finisher. The thing is that Messi is an impossible footballer. I don't know of any player in history who can create so many chances for his teammates while being the world's no1 scorer and, at the same time, score so much playing so far away from the box.

What are you on about? How many inter games did you watch? Sneijder, Cambiasso, Millito, Lucio and Samuel were far more important than Eto'o. I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. He won 2 trebles? I never realised he did it by himself. Eto'o is on the level of David Villa and Henry. None of these guys have the individual component Suarez has. Aguero atm is the closest but even he contributes very little outside scoring. Suarez is the best #9 I have seen in a long time tbh.

I agree on Messi. All the greats in football history were great at both aspects but none have been as ruthlessy consistent as Messi. The only one comparable to him is Di Stefano. On Messi's finishing, I don't think it is that much better than Suarez tbh. The Messi 2 seasons ago was on a differnet planet in terms of his conversion than his current iteration. He would be on 60 goals had he retained his finishing from those previous years.

by Harmonica Tue May 05, 2015 1:43 pm

Can't believe people are actually having a serious discussion about this? scratch

Don't want to participate to this nonsense, just wanted to clear this

jibers wrote:but Suarez is far more versatile and can adapt better to changes in environment hence his better NT record than Messi's.

Suarez 43+19 for Uruguay
Messi 45+37 for Argentina

, and beyond these Messi does far more for the team than Suarez. Messi is much more versatile than Suarez, that's why he plays everywhere on the field at the same level, and Suarez doesn't.

Carry on.

by alexjanosik Tue May 05, 2015 5:08 pm

free_cat wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I dont think he is 2 levels below Messi.I watched Liverpool extensively last season and he was performing at Messi level.
An Eto'o level player(as free claims) doesnt drag Liverpool almost to the title.It takes a very special player and Suarez is that special.As the main man,he proved that he can play at that level.Whats more,he has proven he can also do it for his national team.Unlike Messi,Suarez plays brilliantly at NT level also.Among the top stars,Suarez is the player who has shone the most for his national team.He far outperforms both Messi and CR for the national team.
I think that has to do with his versatility.As he has shown this season,he can play at an elite level in many different roles.He has played this season as a target man and with his back to goal and excelled at it.
Is Messi better than him in some areas?Undoubtedly yes.Messi is a better dribbler and passer.But Suarez is better than Messi in some areas too.He is more unpredictable than Messi which means that sometimes he is more difficult to defend against.
That is also evident in the kind of goals he scores.Take the volley goal he scored last week.Very unpredictable and a sublime goal.A goal Messi will never attempt.Messi would have attempted to take a touch first,bring the ball down and then attempt a shot.
Suarez has that unpredictable genius about him that Ronnie had.Not as refined but in a more rugged sort of way.
IMO,Suarez is Messi level.

An Eto'o level player (Eto'o actually) dragged Inter to a treble, after winning a treble with Barça. Only player who has won 2 trebles, and consecutive.

All those strengths you mention from Suarez are real (unpredictable, versatile, NT...), and I would also add that he is better than Messi at pressing and mentality wise.

But Messi's strenghts are more important than Suarez's for a forward. He has twice the vision, passing and dribling than Suarez's and is also a better finisher. The thing is that Messi is an impossible footballer. I don't know of any player in history who can create so many chances for his teammates while being the world's no1 scorer and, at the same time, score so much playing so far away from the box.

Eto's dragged Inter to nothing.Hyperbole of the highest order.
He was a glorified water carrier in that team.Carried Maicon's water and was a good hustler and defended well.But there were 5,6 players who were far more important than him.He was nowhere close to being their MVP.
Far contrast to Suarez who was Liverpool's MVP and by far their best player.Suarez's play was light years ahead of Eto's with Inter.
You are demeaning Suarez's play last season by comparing him to Eto'o with Inter.It is a laughable comparison and makes me wonder whether you actually did watch him last season.
He was unplayable last season and anyone who saw him consistently wouldnt make such a ridiculous comparison.
On their respective qualities,I dont think this version of Messi is a better finisher than Suarez.The Messi of 2 seasons ago was.But right now,I prefer Suarez as a finisher.

by alexjanosik Tue May 05, 2015 5:14 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Not to mention Messi has incredible touch and control where as Suarez sometimes has that "premier league " control where he lets the ball roll out from under his feet.

It's quite important when it comes to build up and sustaining attacks in tight spaces.

I keep hearing about his poor first touch and I am yet to see it.I think he has a very good first touch.He tries to create space and advance the play with his first touch which is why it may appear inconsistent.Thats just the way he plays.He tries to spin with the first touch a lot.Takes a remarkable amount of skill and he has done it successfully innumerable times this season.Sometimes it doesnt come off.But that is not to be confused with a poor touch.He has quite a remarkable touch.
The thing is that it is not as refined as our techno midgets. It is more rugged but nevertheless just as brilliant.
Messi too sometimes has an inconsistent touch.

by alexjanosik Tue May 05, 2015 5:22 pm

Harmonica wrote:Can't believe people are actually having a serious discussion about this?

Don't want to participate to this nonsense, just wanted to clear this

jibers wrote:but Suarez is far more versatile and can adapt better to changes in environment hence his better NT record than Messi's.
Suarez 43+19 for Uruguay
Messi 45+37 for Argentina

, and beyond these Messi does far more for the team than Suarez. Messi is much more versatile than Suarez, that's why he plays everywhere on the field at the same level, and Suarez doesn't.

Carry on.

Played far better in WC 2010 and was key in Uruguay reaching the semis.
Player of the tournament at Copa 11 when Uruguay won and scored in the semi and final.Messi as usual with his Houdini act for Argentina.
Scores and helps Uruguay win in a crucial do or die game against England in WC'14.
Not to mention his excellent performances in the qualifiers.
Whichever way you slice it,Suarez is a far better player for the NT than Messi.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue May 05, 2015 5:26 pm

Suárez first touch has improved a lot recently, iirc he had a very nice first touch pass in the last match that no one would have expected him to do at the beginning of the season.

by Harmonica Tue May 05, 2015 5:34 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Can't believe people are actually having a serious discussion about this?

Don't want to participate to this nonsense, just wanted to clear this

jibers wrote:but Suarez is far more versatile and can adapt better to changes in environment hence his better NT record than Messi's.
Suarez 43+19 for Uruguay
Messi 45+37 for Argentina

, and beyond these Messi does far more for the team than Suarez. Messi is much more versatile than Suarez, that's why he plays everywhere on the field at the same level, and Suarez doesn't.

Carry on.

Played far better in WC 2010 and was key in Uruguay reaching the semis.
Player of the tournament at Copa 11 when Uruguay won and scored in the semi and final.Messi as usual with his Houdini act for Argentina.
Scores and helps Uruguay win in a crucial do or die game against England in WC'14.
Not to mention his excellent performances in the qualifiers.
Whichever way you slice it,Suarez is a far better player for the NT than Messi.

Messi was far better in WC10, and official MoM 2/3 matches CA11 groups vs Suarez 0/3 MoM, and would have been the MoM against Uruguay if Tevez didn't miss the penalty. Messi was by far better individually in that tournament also. WC14, Golden Ball with one of the best ever tournament performances vs half a year ban. rofl

You have some serious delusion going on I've to tell you.

by futbol Tue May 05, 2015 5:38 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Suárez first touch has improved a lot recently, iirc he had a very nice first touch pass in the last match that no one would have expected him to do at the beginning of the season.

Yeah, he has stepped it up a notch in recent weeks. Last season Liverpool level again for sure. Since his brace against City in February he now has 17 goals and 5 assists in his last 16 games, including crucial goals against Madrid, Valencia, PSG. We have a forward line where 3 players can score 30+ goals and get double digit assists now. Wish the management would stop fooling around and find another world class CM and CB and some depth signings to make this team complete again.

by free_cat Wed May 06, 2015 8:05 am

Saying that Eto'o wasn't vital to Inter in their treble is an statocentric ( Very Happy

) view. He was integral for that Inter in intangibles, defense, mentality. I'm sure they wouldn't have won it without him. Still, off course Eto'o alone didn't carry Inter, I'm just saying he was very important.

The same way Suarez alone didn't carry Liverpool, and at the end of the day, he didn't carry them to batshit, as they won nothing and accomplished nothing.

by Bankz Wed May 06, 2015 12:19 pm

I agree, on talent alone Messi is just purely better than Suarez and there's no shame in that, Esp in ball control and vision. but saying Suarez is balon D'Or level material (and rightfully so) isn't as surprising as we're making it out to be. I think players should be compared solely on their peaks (especially with a team built around them).
Yes, messi is clearly a level (all by himself at that) above Suarez but Suarez isn't some 3 levels inferior to him as some might suggest. But, I consider Suarez more unpredictable which is a very important/rare factor for a forward e.g R9, IBRA.
Meanwhile I comfortably say that Suarez isn't inferior to ronaldo in anyway except some few things like speed (not quickness) and positioning.
So, yeah, Messi is an undisputed no 1, and Suarez is arguably better than CR7 too. I think many football fans tend to have short term memories too tbh we too often forget what these players have done for their previous clubs in the past or NT performances.. We have forgotten the messi of 2-6 years ago and we've also forgotten what Suarez did in Liverpool and is doing with Uruguay, ffs, Gil even called Neymar a poacher last week. Laughing

So, there's that!

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