Donuts wrote:

Bankz wrote:While true, i think u guys should calma tbh.

this 100%

i find it a bit funny really with the members here, not all but majority hated tata for playing the very predictable lineup, me included, but he got results (in the classicos etc)

luis enrique comes along plays the players most of us want then we complain and say it was lack of thinking on his part

two losses this season two away from home, it happens lets wait and see it out till the end of the season.

the funny thing is tata did the exact opposite and got bashed for it..our defence has been very solid, better than 90% of what teams have out there. we conceeded 3 against this madrid so what? Its not like we didn't conceed 3 against them last season..this team has only conceeded in one game out of 9 games this season ffs..As for the attack, neymar has turned into some goal scoring monster this season which was something we couldn't enjoy under tata last season, so arent we grateful for that too? This season has been neymar and messi saving our *bleep* asses every single week, even suarez is yet to feature too, so, its not the end of the world..well if u ask me, i prefer to win against all the scrub teams (which constitutes about 85% in a league btw) and win the league title, than boss the 'big' teams and end up loosing like tata..yes, we lost against madrid fair and square, but thats football, there'll always be a shift in power at some point to be realistic. All lucho needs to do now is sort out the midfield and we're good already..this result not withstanding, barca will walk the league tbh..although like i said last week, suarez shouldn't have started and the subs where questionable at best..

The Franchise wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:How can we press relentlessly when 5 of the 10 outfield players are 30 or older, 2 are lazy creative types and 1 has been out for 4 months?

Its much more feasible than getting 2 of Suarez, Messi and Neymar to get goal side of the fullbacks.

Sure, but it would be even more feasable with a different line up.

In any case I don't think Enrique can be blamed for not pressing. Neither do I think Martino can be blamed for it (although he can be blamed for not doing it well). They both came in saying they wanted to recover the pressing and I'm sure they both tried/are trying. But when a group of players is no longer able/willing what can you do, the coach is not the one playing in the pitch.

To be fair though, there is a difference between not pressing and the incredibly half hearted, unintelligent, and downright awful pressing that occurred in the Madrid game.

Shouted at the computer screen many a time for letting Madrid players "escape a press" that should have been a recovered ball for our team. It wasn't even that Madrid did well to "escape the press"...it was simply how poor we were.

Not only this--but Alex often makes a viable point. If this is going to happen then we need to defend with numbers- yet how many times were Messi and Suarez up near the half way line, not pressing, not defending- simply being bystanders in a team that needed numbers to defend? Or if this is how we play, start a more defensively capable (and better in the transition) midfielder like Rakitic. For if we were going to concede the midfield to Madrid, do it while playing someone like Rakitic.

I think in some fashion Enrique can escape blame for pressing, but the team should be able to put on a halfway decent press and if that's not going to happen, I want to see everybody defending in numbers. Against Madrid we didn't really see either, with some (in my opinion) line up mistakes to boot.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:How can we press relentlessly when 5 of the 10 outfield players are 30 or older, 2 are lazy creative types and 1 has been out for 4 months?

Its much more feasible than getting 2 of Suarez, Messi and Neymar to get goal side of the fullbacks.

Sure, but it would be even more feasible with a different line up.

In any case I don't think Enrique can be blamed for not pressing. Neither do I think Martino can be blamed for it (although he can be blamed for not doing it well). They both came in saying they wanted to recover the pressing and I'm sure they both tried/are trying. But when a group of players is no longer able/willing what can you do, the coach is not the one playing in the pitch.

Indeed, his line up was just as big a problem as his tactics. Both are obviously related but I think we on the same page.

In any event, if what you say is the case and what I say is the case. We are surely f-ed?

Small teams, it wont matter so much, but against the stronger teams how are we going to navigate this issue in the future?

Either the midfield has to press better and be part of the game-plan (be it Xavi and Iniesta or if they are replaced) or 2 forward have to get back behind the ball. One of those things have to happen or we wont win big games.

So what is Enrique going to do about it?

I have a feeling he is going to split the difference. He will force Neymar back and we wont high press in the big games and have 2 banks of 4 with one of the CM's becoming a winger in the defensive phase. vs PSG I thought it was a just a mistake and we had disorganised game, but Madrid was the same.

I personally dont like it. Look how Neymar is playing and we are going to waste his energy tracking back and I dont even think it will work anyway because the 4 men (Neymar, Busquets, Iniesta, Rakitic/Xavi) still arent good enough defensively, they need 5.

Rotate Messi, Suarez and Neymar instead of playing all 3. Plenty of games to do that while keeping all of them happy. You need one winger who can be counted on to track back.

Wouldn't be such a huge issue if the fullbacks weren't poor defenders, the CBs average and the midfield un-athletic.

Barca just have a poorly designed squad right now.

In the big games (where the actual problems will be) they wont be rotated, all 3 will surely start.

Your right, you can rotate them in other games but I dont think its even needed. The defensive issues arent there against the weaker teams. In fact we defend even in a different shape against those teams.

It would be a great weapon to have if you could put 1 of them on the bench in big games and bring them on around the 60 min mark... fresh legs to go against a tired defense.

That's if you don't want any of these guys to waste energy getting back into defensive shape.

You can also do it like Madrid where Bale or James are asked to recover back into the defensive mid.

The other thing is that Barca is most susceptible to crosses... so instead of packing the middle defensively, i'd cheat to the edges and take away the width if i could. Pique/Mascherano have a much better chance of handling balls coming at them on the ground through the middle as opposed to crosses. It does open you up against distance shooting however.

Worth a try.

100% agree but Suarez started when he wasnt even fit...he will start for sure when he is.

I see no reason why we cant press with intensity.Countless teams do it.So why cant we?
We only need to kick one player out of the team.No prizes for guessing who.

A few reasons why pressing won't work well imo:
- You need 2 of the back 4 to be very athletic at least and on different sides of the pitch. Since you're playing a high line, you will get beaten in a game a few times. It's inevitable. you want someone with recovery speed on each side.
- Messi and Suarez aren't fit enough. You can press with 9 guys... but 8, it will kill them.
- Too many older guys on Barca. As it is, a press usually starts losing its bite around the 65 min mark because it's too hard to sustain. Now, if you add old guys that will automatically have a harder time recovering between games... it's a disaster. That's the biggest issue when you get older: you just don't recover as quickly in between games.

We have athletic players at the back.Mathieu,Masch,Alves and Alba are quite quick and reasonable athletic.So no problems there.
I dont think Suarez has any fitness issues.He just lacks match fitness.Once he gets that,see no problem why he cant press.he is a very hard worker.
Our players are not that old.Neymar is young.In midfield,Rakitic and Busquets are young.Iniesta is 30 but can always bring in the likes of Rafinha or Samper.
So none of those points you listed seem like a problem to me.

Clear as day why we cant or wont press.One player has gotten too big for his shoes and needs to be shown the door.

Sorry to chime in.

I'm in no way an expert on either tactical/coaching matters nor football in general lol, so consider this a layman's outsider addendum.

But I'd repeat something I said after similar 'big game' defeats of yours, like against us 2013.
Imo you simply have to somehow consider that your team is in its backbone basically still the worldbeating team of Pep, but it must be considered to be pretty much over it.

Allegedly Pep was asked about our semi thrashing of you, and he said the difference was 'motivation'.

Now all of this is hard to measure and not straightforward.

But I think you cannot underestimate the importance of motivation for playing with intensity, as you demand.
Just a tiny little bit less determination and motivation leads to just a tiny little bit less intensity, then you lose challenges, you lose momentum etc.

This can be seen at play within single games (typical examples, a team that has a high lead and then 'takes the foot off the gas' and then the other team all of a sudden is the stronger side; or our home defeat against City last December, 2:0 up after 10m, stop playing with intensity, lose the momentum, lose the game).

It can be seen within seasons (our breakin straight after the league win last season) (sorry for the selfcentered examples but these are the ones I know)

And it can be seen in the cycle of teams I think.
Fact is, your team won everything over and over again, in fantastic fashion. Lauded by all, top of the world.

Then Pep leaves, which means the end of an era by itself; plus players get older. On top of them getting older, how exactly can you expect them the same absolute height of motivation and determination, as players and personalities, as they had?

Something would have to happen, some kind of input, some kind of change up.
Maybe some might have to look for a new challenge at another club. (look at Alonso)
Maybe some just need a rest on the bench for afew weeks, and pressure from new blood, new up and coming players.
Maybe something else.

But there has been not enough new blood in your team. Who are the players REALLY challenging Busquets, Iniestas, Messis spots?
You now bought Rakitic but for the big game Xavi is again on the pitch.
Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, like 5 years ago.

Now I know this is hard since they're all absolute GOATS whose greatness will possibly not really be reached by anyone else, but at some point somethings got to give.

Because else it's no surprise you're picking your brains why that little bit of intensity is missing.

Same goes for Spain NT. It was GOAT in lockstep with Barca, using their backbone.
This Barca team is a THING OF THE PAST, no matter to which degree individually and in detail.
Del Bosque failed to realize that, and kept fielding it.
He should have banked on players from Real, Atletico etc instead of the Barca old guard.
And Barca need a new guard too.

And even if you feel the new guard is not as classy as the old (both Barca nd NT), you still need a transition.

Because motivation plays such a huge part in football.

In few other sports lower class teams can beat top teams in a cup etc, all because of motivation and intensity.

Sorry for the long post, that's meant as a global observation and not to deny any other concrete problems/solutions.

Long story short, it would have been down to meaningful squad planning impulses from the board, which failed. I don't need to tell you.
But it is hard to let go of such a good thing as you had, and because it was so good the players have of course accumulated player power.

Reminds me of when Pep first arrived and got rid of like half the squad and practically started over from scratch and left behind everything Rijkaard had done with the team. Also similar to what happened with Rijkaard first arrived.

Now since Pep moved, it seems like the club is disparately trying to hold on to what Pep did and instead of trying to find a manager with new philosophies and ideas, with his own players for his system...the board is instead trying to find managers in Peps mold to continue what he was doing and finding players to continue with the mold of what Pep had the team as.

But none of these managers are Pep, and let's not forget Pep had a young motivated team and had prime Messi/Xavi/Iniesta/Puyol at the nucleus of the team. I think the club needs to keep it's principles and continue to promote the players into the first team that deserve it (like Rafinha, Deulofeu, Adama, Samper etc), and then look for a manager with new ides to lead the team. I would love to get Klopp or someone of that mold...some one who would have the balls to yell at the players for not hustling.

Truth is that the young and hungry back bone that Pep had to work with are still at this team..but they are now either tired and old, or have had so much success that while they are still wanting to win that they kind of lost the energy to work for it. Some guys are also blatantly past their best and are declining. I mean just look at the players we all here praise as being our best this season; Bravo, Mathieu, Rakitic, and sometime Neymar. Notice NONE of those guys were around during the Pep era, they are hungry to win what they have never won before. To the rest, it's no longer the same fight plus they played A TON of games in the last 8 years with practically no rest. Mascherano is the only one from Peps era that is still playing out of his mind...but that guy's mentality is cut from a different cloth than say Pique's.

I think the rumored "rebuilding" that was suppose to happen after we got stomped by Bayern should of started to happen last summer..but instead the club has been dragging it's feet.

The only way to fix all this? Get a new board in place that has the balls to gut the team of the big name guys that aren't producing.

windkick wrote:Reminds me of when Pep first arrived and got rid of like half the squad and practically started over from scratch and left behind everything Rijkaard had done with the team. Also similar to what happened with Rijkaard first arrived.

Now since Pep moved, it seems like the club is disparately trying to hold on to what Pep did and instead of trying to find a manager with new philosophies and ideas, with his own players for his system...the board is instead trying to find managers in Peps mold to continue what he was doing and finding players to continue with the mold of what Pep had the team as.

But none of these managers are Pep, and let's not forget Pep had a young motivated team and had prime Messi/Xavi/Iniesta/Puyol at the nucleus of the team. I think the club needs to keep it's principles and continue to promote the players into the first team that deserve it (like Rafinha, Deulofeu, Adama, Samper etc), and then look for a manager with new ides to lead the team. I would love to get Klopp or someone of that mold...some one who would have the balls to yell at the players for not hustling.

Truth is that the young and hungry back bone that Pep had to work with are still at this team..but they are now either tired and old, or have had so much success that while they are still wanting to win that they kind of lost the energy to work for it. Some guys are also blatantly past their best and are declining. I mean just look at the players we all here praise as being our best this season; Bravo, Mathieu, Rakitic, and sometime Neymar. Notice NONE of those guys were around during the Pep era, they are hungry to win what they have never won before. To the rest, it's no longer the same fight plus they played A TON of games in the last 8 years with practically no rest. Mascherano is the only one from Peps era that is still playing out of his mind...but that guy's mentality is cut from a different cloth than say Pique's.

I think the rumored "rebuilding" that was suppose to happen after we got stomped by Bayern should of started to happen last summer..but instead the club has been dragging it's feet.

The only way to fix all this? Get a new board in place that has the balls to gut the team of the big name guys that aren't producing.

God post. I'd go further and say that the management of the club hasn't been the best. Add that to fact that the team has had 3 managers in 2 years and as you said the same players have been in place those 2 years. I don't know who's going to be the next president of the club but hopefully he'd be great.
Then the manager in place who would start over again.

Its time to see the writing on the wall.Guy is a scrub and completely clueless.We are playing like garbage and he is doing nothing.Knows nothing of tactics and can be outcoached by any decent manager.
Sooner he is sacked and someone competent brought in the better.

I wouldn't sack him, but still give him time, but if we don't get result against PSG and Atleti then I won't be too happy.

Forget the results winter.I am not even talking about the results.
I am talking about the performances.Have we had one great performance in all his games in charge.Have we had one game where we played great football.We used to play the best most beautiful football on the planet.Thats impossible to live up to but is it too much to ask for good football.
We have played like garbage this season and the coach is to blame.Tata played far far better than this.Unfortunately he wasnt a club legend.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. However lets face it we aren't sacking anyone and he will remain till the end of season and then he'll either finish his contract or walk on his own.

Count me on the "Sack Lucho" list. I didn't want him last season and i didn't want him this one.

The guy's credititnals to manage our team are..

1. Took one of our most stacked B teams to a high table finish.
2. Got sacked mid season by Roma.
3. Kept Celta mid table
4. Club legend, friends with Pep.

To note...both Roma and Celta did better the season after he was gone.

I mean give me a break, the guys is clueless and has no reason to be trying to spear head a squad that requires some tactical knowledge to make things work with the players we have at our hand. All of our players numbers are down bar Neymar, who by the way gets randomly benched from time to time for no reason by Lucho. The guy is an idiot, but more importantly it's Zubi's fault more than anybody else.

Also, not sure if posted but apparently after the Celta game there was a leak to the media that he was losing the team's confidence and that allot of the players were unhappy with his style. Allot of them apparently were saying that so far they are still unsure of what duty he wants out of them on a tactical level, and that when things go wrong his only answer tactically is "give the ball to Messi" basically. I can see it on the pitch, allot of times players run off to do different things and we create massive holes that get exploited. He hasn't set a system in place for them to use and the team is suffering from it. Dam shame we have some players possibly leaving there peak, or getting older like Messi, Suarez, Iniesta who we need to get the most out of them now before they get older and past prime. And they are going to spend the last bit of prime years they have playing for a guy that has no clue on how to get the best out of them. Really ridiculous how bad this board of ours is.

Why is he so smug? He's got an undeserved arrogance about him. Like he's super suave and above everyone else. Feels pretentious, like he's trying to be what Pep was, but Pep earned his arrogance. What has he done in his career to feel like he's above anyone else.

Pep was very charismatic in his arrogance. Tito (may he RIP) was a humble man, very peaceful liked him a lot. Roura was a clown, no comment there. Tata was respectable and composed. Lucho just grinds my gears with his pretentiousness, maybe it extends from his playing days as I really didn't like him as a player.

Maybe I'm biased, since I have been completely against the appointment of Lucho since the very beginning, but the dude is clueless. If the board wanted to gamble on an inexperienced manager they should have gone for De Boer instead. Even though I wouldn't have been a fan of him becoming our manager either, it would have made more sense than Lucho.

windkick wrote:Count me on the "Sack Lucho" list. I didn't want him last season and i didn't want him this one.

The guy's credititnals to manage our team are..

1. Took one of our most stacked B teams to a high table finish.
2. Got sacked mid season by Roma.
3. Kept Celta mid table
4. Club legend, friends with Pep.

To note...both Roma and Celta did better the season after he was gone.

I mean give me a break, the guys is clueless and has no reason to be trying to spear head a squad that requires some tactical knowledge to make things work with the players we have at our hand. All of our players numbers are down bar Neymar, who by the way gets randomly benched from time to time for no reason by Lucho. The guy is an idiot, but more importantly it's Zubi's fault more than anybody else.

Also, not sure if posted but apparently after the Celta game there was a leak to the media that he was losing the team's confidence and that allot of the players were unhappy with his style. Allot of them apparently were saying that so far they are still unsure of what duty he wants out of them on a tactical level, and that when things go wrong his only answer tactically is "give the ball to Messi" basically. I can see it on the pitch, allot of times players run off to do different things and we create massive holes that get exploited. He hasn't set a system in place for them to use and the team is suffering from it. Dam shame we have some players possibly leaving there peak, or getting older like Messi, Suarez, Iniesta who we need to get the most out of them now before they get older and past prime. And they are going to spend the last bit of prime years they have playing for a guy that has no clue on how to get the best out of them. Really ridiculous how bad this board of ours is.

Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest.It is plain evident to see.Sack him now and we can salvage the season.Try to get Martinez or if not possible have Xavi become player manager.

Alex, what is your opinion of getting De Boer?

The guy had Ajax pressing and passing better than us many a time in our most recent encounter with them.

That "mole" report was by As. If there were a leak, I would suspect it would come out of El Mundo Deportivo or Diario Sport, which are the Barcelona-based rags, not one based in Madrid.

People still missing the point. Let's start chronologically:

Pep's last season. What happened? It's in his book:

For four years, Pep demanded unstinting effort from his players. Nothing but their best would do and at times his exacting standards caused friction within the group. Many of the players were unfazed by the relentless work rate, but some felt they had earned the right to relax a bit. They were the elite of world football, after all, and they had the trophies to prove it. More than one of Pep’s men were now interested in contesting only the important games and they began to make excuses to avoid the kind of grim, uninspiring winter matches which were played on cold, inhospitable pitches.

Drill sergeant Pep left. The timid and calm Tito replaced him. Players immediately startet relaxing more than ever before. Remember the Supercopa return leg against Real Madrid? Right at the start of the season? The total mess in the first half when Madrid should have scored 5 goals? First time Madrid was all over Barca in such fashion since the Rijkaard days. And it only took 3 games under Tito. Which means it had nothing to do with "tactics". Tito didn't destroy 4 years of Pep's tactical work in 3 games while playing the same players under the same formation. It had everything to do with players not putting in the effort.

Fast forward towards the end of that season. Prior to the Milan comeback everyone from the staff to the players was publicly in agreement that Barca is at its best when Barca presses. Alves announced something along the lines of: "If we press we are the best team in the world, if we don't we are ordinary" or something like that. At the end of the season, after the CL knockout, everyone was in agreement that next season the major work was to recover the pressing. Tito had to step down, Tata joined. The Bielsista. The guy who was supposed to run everyone to the ground. Meanwhile del Bosque gets overrun in the Confeds Cup against Brazil.

Tata's first press conference? "We want to recover the pressing and intensity". And Barca did. For about the first 3 weeks of the season. "Intensidad", heard it 1000 times. Then went back to using 4 midfielders and "controlling the game" instead of pressing high. Meanwhile del Bosque gets overrun in the World Cup by Netherlands and Chile.

Fast forward, Lucho joins, another supposed drill sergeant, the guy who installed a scaffolding to coordinate the spaces between the lines with a better view, who records training sessions. Pique is clowning around? Pique sees the bench. Meritocracy. Messi recovers more balls than ever before since Pep, clean sheets keep rolling, eyebrows raised about the PSG loss but that can happen, individuals (namely fullbacks) had brainfarts. Then the Clasico is lost and since then everything goes to shit and Barca gets dominated by Almeria and de Boer is supposed to save us. The End.

So, now, you guys tell me. If 4 coaches, namely Tito, Tata, del Bosque and Lucho get embarrassed with the same player material in similar fashion why do we want a 5th to try and find the magic button? Why is it always the coach who is clueless? Messi is lazy, Pique is shit and Alves has lost it. That's as far as criticism goes towards the players. Even though Pep's book describes the collective loss of motivation that dates back to 2011. But obviously all we need is de Boer. Because his Ajax plays some nice passing football and pressed us while losing 1-5 over 2 legs against the worst Barca of all time.

While that all is probably correct and I agree with, we still have to separate the players motivation and abilities and Enrique's ability, at least in this discussion.

If you have come to this conclusion, if we agree with it, if others come to the same conclusion...Enrique has come to this same conclusion. Im sure Martino knows this but is too nice of a guy to say it, even now he is gone. But in any event, Enrique I am sure if clued up enough to see what is right in front of him.

So how to navigate this to give the team the best chance?

Im sorry, but the answer cant be rolling out a weird, lobsided, unbalanced and un-tested 442 vs PSG.

You already know I totally agree with you about the fullback performances in that game, but again we have to separate this from what Enrique did. Those players cost us the game against PSG, but that wasnt all that was wrong, at least 50% of the loss was on that horrible defensive shape starting from the front and midfield.

Fast-forward to Madrid, what is his answer? What did he learn from PSG? STARTING, an unfit and ill prepared Suarez into a team and thus creating a totally new defensive questions we had to solve as the game progressed.

The same 442 in the defensive phase, but this time with our best performing CB as a leftback (against a team without a right-winger may I add) and stripping the little physicality which existed in the midfield (despite knowledge the chances of controlling the game were relatively low).

So, do we have personale issues? Yep, for sure.

Would De Boer being a coach over him make us better? Nobody knows, its probably unlikely and it certainly doesnt remove the personale issues.

But that wont save him from my criticism. Just like Martino (even worse personale issues) the decisions he is making lack logic and even worse, they arent even clear.