Re: Should Barcelona leave La Liga to French league?

by free_cat Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:41 pm

futbol wrote:
free_cat wrote:
futbol wrote:

The more interesting question is why these articles always pretend that Catalans could vote for their own independence with an upcoming "referendum". That so called "referendum" is nothing more than an opinion poll. You could just as well open a Facebook group and ask people to "sign" for Catalan independence. It has the exact same legal-binding.

In spain there are no legal binding referendums except for constitui and autonomy statutes ammendmnts, so all other referendums held in spain (acces to the OTAN or the European Constitution one basically) were exactly as binding as the catalan referendum to be hold on 9th November 2014.

However, we live in a democracy and the institutions and political parties are morally obliged to comply with the people's will, and if the YES to independence wins in 9th November 2014 catalan institutions will surely start the process of secession in accordance with the will of its people.

Surely, a facebook poll wouldn't be able to achieve that.

There is no "morally obliged". Catalunya is under Spanish constitution. If they want to separate, constitutional law applies. Not moral law. Therefore they need a 2/3 majority in Spanish parliament to approve, a reelected parliamant that ratifies the decision and only then a conclusive referendum will be held to ratify the proposal. But involving the whole of Spain. Not just "the will" of 4 out of 47 million people. Most regions in the world would separate, especially the rich ones, if you just asked the people in that region about their will.

Well, what you quote would be the impossible way under spanish law to become an independent state. However, this is impossible there isn't any spanish party and almost no spanish individuals that favours the independence of catalonia, just catalan ones.

At some point of the independence process Catalonia will have to do something against spanish law. Law is not sacred. If law was sacred, we would have slaves, women couldn't vote, and blacks would have to attend to separated schools, etc. Over law, there's democracy. And in a case of soverignity, as this is the matter, it's only the people who want to be a sovereign country that decides. If this principle doesn't apply, every country in Europe could be democratically invaded by Russia, as they are the most populated country and could vote for everyone to be Russians.

There isn't international law on the matter, but none of it is against the formation of new states, especifically when the proceeding is democratic. See the advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice regarding Kosovo's independence, which to sum up says that it didn't break international law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo's_declaration_of_independence

by free_cat Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:51 pm

sportsczy wrote:actually, there is some kind of UN thing where it is ok according to international law for a minority people within a country to ask for independence if, within the geographic boundaries where such action is requested, 80% are in favor of independence.

So as far as international law goes, Catalunya has the right to go ahead with its internal vote.

Now, the issue with Spain is different. It depends if Catalunya agreed to an indissoluble relation when it became part of Spain. If it did, then there's nothing Catalunya can do short of going to war. Just as en example, over 120 years ago, the state of Texas made a petition to the United States congress asking that the US "peacefully grant the State of Texas the right to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own new government."... literally. The US Supreme Court rejected the request and here's what they said:

“When Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the state. The Act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final.”

UN has some resolutions on determination and colonialism, which basically say that peoples have the right to self determination and colonies should be given the independence:
http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/ga_resolutions.shtml

Spain however always say that these resolutions don't apply to Catalonia because we are not a colony and we are under a democratic state. Just technicisms really, because the only difference between a modern day colony and catalonia it's just the time we've been under foreign rule, as when we became part of Spain wasn't at all an agreement as you are trying to imply but through a war.

by chinomaster182 Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:20 pm

The Franchise wrote:
chinomaster182 wrote:
The_Badger wrote:

Are you for real, or just trolling?

If any Catalans/Basques or just Europeans want to give an honest insight then i'll promise to be respectfull.

There are quite a few interesting documentaries, its not a simple thing to explain because there are various different reasons for independence, both current and historic. It would take a better man than me to sum it up totally in such few words.

Willing to give up 40 minutes of your time?

Sure, although docs can really show you a very biased story, but i can sure give it a spin.

I was reading the rest of the thread and the US civil war comment struck me. The unionists won there, Lincoln is a hero and the south was wrong for wanting independence, that's whats taught in the history classes.

If it just strikes me and many other people wrong its because the only American country that has modern day separatist wishes that i can think of is Canada, and even there its not really a big thing.

by free_cat Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:42 pm

chinomaster182 wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
chinomaster182 wrote:

If any Catalans/Basques or just Europeans want to give an honest insight then i'll promise to be respectfull.

There are quite a few interesting documentaries, its not a simple thing to explain because there are various different reasons for independence, both current and historic. It would take a better man than me to sum it up totally in such few words.

Willing to give up 40 minutes of your time?

Sure, although docs can really show you a very biased story, but i can sure give it a spin.

I was reading the rest of the thread and the US civil war comment struck me. The unionists won there, Lincoln is a hero and the south was wrong for wanting independence, that's whats taught in the history classes.

If it just strikes me and many other people wrong its because the only American country that has modern day separatist wishes that i can think of is Canada, and even there its not really a big thing.

In American continent separatism is not very big because countries are new and precisely created getting independence from another country. Hence, all american countries are actually modern day separatists as they want to remain independent. Catalonia has as much a claim to be independent than the USA or any other american country.

by sportsczy Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:44 pm

@free-cat. I'm not that familiar with the history of Catalunya and how it became part of Spain. The only thing i was bringing up is that the laws of the country (or its interpretation) dictate whether independence is allowed peacefully. Short of that, it would take intense international political pressure or Catalunya fighting a war of independence.

The Texas example was only to show that there is precedent for asking independence even in the US peacefully. It failed and Texas didn't push it further. But the first step is always a legal battle before you pursue others...

Incidentally, Quebec wants independence from Canada too today...

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Should Barcelona leave La Liga to French league?