The Football Mood Daily: Should Barcelona leave La Liga to French league?

by Ramzi [@footballmood]
http://www.footballmood.com/2013/12/the-football-mood-daily-should.html

When I'm not in the real world, you can find me creating worlds on Football Mood's Twitter

Is this the map of 2015?

“We do not have the possibility of a competitive league. There would be very few teams and we would have to join another league – we could adhere to the Spanish league or perhaps the French league.”

Thats what Barcelona mayor Xavier Trias replied when asked about the future of Catalan clubs incase his wish -and many- turned real and Catalunya became an independent country.

It worth noting that Catalans' independence will not be a walk at the park by any means. Catalan main parties announced this month that the voting for independence will take place November 9, 2014 regardless of the spanish desire to prevent such voting from taking place at any cost. The fact that most polls suggest over 57% of catalans will vote for independence makes it a case of life or death for Spanish central government.


Make no mistake, not only Catalunya is the golden fish in Spain's existence - injects € 17 billion every year in Madrid's government pocket, but it is also the state that may hold the whole kingdom's destiny. If Catalunya achieves independence, there is no reason to doubt other states may follow. In fact, such movement for independence will not be welcomed on the european stage. There are concerns this will create a trend (After Scotland's movement for independence) that other "nations" within european countries will catch the infection, from the basque to Bavaria.

Even if it happens that Catalunya gains independence, there will be another battle negotiating with the EU to become a member - knowing that this will not be a given. The concerns mentioned above may push many European countries to complicate Catalunya's attempt to join the EU. It fits the current Europian countries (Such as Germany) to send a clear message to other ambitious "nations" within the established countries to not make an attempt to follow that path.

This is where it is still unclear how the Catalan clubs will deal with this period, pending EU membership. Will they survive playing a domestic competition till a decision is made? It is yet to be clear whether such clubs involvement in the europe's continental competitions will have to wait till the EU membership is decided. That means, they will not be able to play in any league in europe, be it Spain or france where the table decides who plays in Continental clubs' competitions.

If we put all the mentioned challenges and concerns aside, will it be better for Barcelona (Catalan clubs) to play in La Liga (Spanish leagues) or get into the french league?



Should I, or should I not, Barça wonders?

Such possibility is not a first. Existing examples like Swansea City, Cardiff City, and most appropriate (for this case) AS Monaco all plays in the leagues manages by/in other countries. If Catalan clubs ended up playing their own independent league they will no doubt be in the losing end compared to Spain. La Liga will no doubt lose a lot but not as much as FC Barcelona and Espanyol will incase such arrangement took place. On the other hand, If Catalan clubs joined french leagues, the mentioned clubs and french football will benefit immensely, which may encourage Platini and co to do their best for that alternative to happen.

For the french national team, this will boost the french squads from youth to first team with quality that will make France the football nation to beat. We are talking here about the backbone of the victorious Spanish football, the golden generation, added to the quality already representing France.

For Ligue one, Adding FC Barcelona (and Espanyol) to the likes of PSG, AS Monaco will boost the value of the league in general on many levels. First, the competition for the title will be as good - if not better- than current La Liga. Secondly, any football fan in the world will be immensely interested to follow the league, not only for the mentioned three teams games against each other but also to watch how FC Barcelona will perform against the rest of the french teams (where almost every game is the first in history to happen). Another team that will create an amazing match up with FC Barcelona is Marseille. This is obviously not the best team in France but is still the one with biggest fanbase and the match against the Catalans guarantee a crazy atmosphere in the stadium. In fact, this will be the phenomena across the league for every club facing FC Barcelona.

All that will be translated to money. TV return and stadium attendance and overall commercial value for the league. Even for Barça fans, it will be more entertaining to watch the club against Nantes, Toulouse, Montpellier, etc... instead of the Spanish middle to weak Spanish opponents, not for any reason but the new experience.

The normal question is: What about el clasico? There is no match like FC Barcelona Real Madrid. Yet, I am not sure how comfortable will it be for Catalan clubs in general to play in the league of a country they divorced. I assume the clasico matches will be more nasty than we ever witnessed. That is why, it may end up being more exciting if it happens every once and while in the champions league rather than four times or more every year. In fact, it will be good if the two teams do not meet in the first couple of seasons after Catalan independence, giving a chance for the storm to pass.

FC Barcelona's network in Spain is well established and it provides La Masia with the talents needed for the longterm success of the club. Getting into French football may provide another stream of young talents of different characters and attributes that may perfect the squads and prove an added value.

However, lot of questions will occur if such transition happens. In Spain, FC Barcelona - with Real Madrid- earns a lot from TV rights and other financial streams that may not be available for Barça in France for the short and middle term. Clubs like PSG and AS Monaco may have a better financial position than the Catalan club. In the other hand, how will the rest of french football community view the catalan clubs? Outsiders? What impact will that make on the little things that play a big deal in the fairness of competition? How far getting away from the continuos rivalry with Real Madrid slowdown the improvement of Barça, knowing that the two rivals were the reason both kept on growing? How far will we miss some of the most exciting games in La Liga like the matches against Athletic Bilbao, Atletico Madrid, Valencia, Sevilla...

Yet, Sandro Rosell's respond to what Barcelona's Mayor suggested (Quoted above) leaves no doubt about the future for the current Board of Barça:

“There is no tradition, no rivalry with French football. To me, what the Barcelona mayor said is unbelievable.”
Unleash your football fantasies and visualize the future of Barça in either of the two leagues and decide where you wish Messi and co to dominate!

Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

In terms of football, La Liga is a bigger league than Ligue 1. It's more competitive too. Would be better if Barcelona stayed.

MT, I know your clueless questions are mostly funny but this aint the subject. Some people have real issues with independence and your ignorance will just piss people off.

Educate yourself on the subject people putting in an opinion on what people should or shouldnt do.

Has any team ever switched to a different domestic league?

it's not going to happen, just a waste of time to entertain some minds lol

Given both countries aren't enormous, maybe the Portuguese league and La Liga should merge. That would make more sense if a bigger league is being looked to be made out of La Liga. Seeing Barca, R. Madrid, Atleti vs Porto, Benfica, Sporting Lisbon etc would be nice. The cup games would also be more intense and the travel wouldn't be too bad

Revenue wise (if handled more like the EPL) it would also help every one involved and interest would be higher so the fans would show up to see these new match ups and sponsors would like to jump in on this

it' a nice idea but you know how the spanish and the portuguese feel about each others

Mr Nick09 wrote:it' a nice idea but you know how the spanish and the portuguese feel about each others

thats exactly why i think it would help revenue. Attendance would go up right off the bat, as would TV ratings

I am not sure French clubs would like the idea, especially the ones fighting for the title or the ones fighting relegation, mid table teams might welcome the idea, and if the league is expanded to 22 clubs then the ones fighting relegation won't mind it, but that leaves us with the top teams.

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

Are you for real, or just trolling?

vanDEEZ wrote:Has any team ever switched to a different domestic league?

This is a very interesting question. Has something like this ever happen before?

Australia switched National regions, that's the closest thing i can think off, that is similar to this scenario.

But, No.

The_Badger wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

Are you for real, or just trolling?

I honestly question this myself once or twice a day, no troll

I just think its a different mentality in the American continent, my country is bigger than Spain, has more citizens and also has big cultural differences between north, middle and south including different languages politics and customs. The thought about breaking up has never entered the national debate, i can only think about the negatives surrounding independence, not many positives.

If any Catalans/Basques or just Europeans want to give an honest insight then i'll promise to be respectfull.

Interesting read...
It would really be interesting to see what happens then...I personally think inclusion to french league would be mess. some of the reasons are already pointed out by others. Why not stay where they are even after independence. That makes more sense. No other league would welcome Barca(i guess) after the independence because of many political / non political issues involved here.

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

The more interesting question is why these articles always pretend that Catalans could vote for their own independence with an upcoming "referendum". That so called "referendum" is nothing more than an opinion poll. You could just as well open a Facebook group and ask people to "sign" for Catalan independence. It has the exact same legal-binding.

chinomaster182 wrote:

The_Badger wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

Are you for real, or just trolling?

If any Catalans/Basques or just Europeans want to give an honest insight then i'll promise to be respectfull.

There are quite a few interesting documentaries, its not a simple thing to explain because there are various different reasons for independence, both current and historic. It would take a better man than me to sum it up totally in such few words.

Willing to give up 40 minutes of your time?

futbol wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

The more interesting question is why these articles always pretend that Catalans could vote for their own independence with an upcoming "referendum". That so called "referendum" is nothing more than an opinion poll. You could just as well open a Facebook group and ask people to "sign" for Catalan independence. It has the exact same legal-binding.

In spain there are no legal binding referendums except for constitui and autonomy statutes ammendmnts, so all other referendums held in spain (acces to the OTAN or the European Constitution one basically) were exactly as binding as the catalan referendum to be hold on 9th November 2014.

However, we live in a democracy and the institutions and political parties are morally obliged to comply with the people's will, and if the YES to independence wins in 9th November 2014 catalan institutions will surely start the process of secession in accordance with the will of its people.

Surely, a facebook poll wouldn't be able to achieve that.

If it meant more revenue for the clubs of Ligue 1, they would have no problem whatsoever...  Monaco isn't french and they're in it.  They'd just apply the same rules to the Catalan clubs.  The system is already in place as a result of Monaco.

I'm sure that's why Ligue 1 was mentioned too.

Regarding the topic of the thread, the question here it is not if Barça should join French league with no reason. Pretty much every barça fan agrees in remaining in the Spanish league if Catalonia becomes independent. However, there's the small possibility that Spain manages to kick catalan clubs out of the competition.

In that scenario, what should we do? Well, there are only two options really, join a third league or create a catalan league.
In my opinion, given that we don't have more than 5 professional clubs in catalonia, it wouldn't be wise to make a Catalan league and we should join a third league, leaving the rest of Catalan clubs playing in a catalan league.

In that case I would opt for an Iberian league with Portugal and in the near future Basque teams, and probably in some more years again the rest of spanish teams.

Although joining the French League, the EPL or Serie A would also be nice.

free_cat wrote:

futbol wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

The more interesting question is why these articles always pretend that Catalans could vote for their own independence with an upcoming "referendum". That so called "referendum" is nothing more than an opinion poll. You could just as well open a Facebook group and ask people to "sign" for Catalan independence. It has the exact same legal-binding.

In spain there are no legal binding referendums except for constitui and autonomy statutes ammendmnts, so all other referendums held in spain (acces to the OTAN or the European Constitution one basically) were exactly as binding as the catalan referendum to be hold on 9th November 2014.

However, we live in a democracy and the institutions and political parties are morally obliged to comply with the people's will, and if the YES to independence wins in 9th November 2014 catalan institutions will surely start the process of secession in accordance with the will of its people.

Surely, a facebook poll wouldn't be able to achieve that.

There is no "morally obliged". Catalunya is under Spanish constitution. If they want to separate, constitutional law applies. Not moral law. Therefore they need a 2/3 majority in Spanish parliament to approve, a reelected parliamant that ratifies the decision and only then a conclusive referendum will be held to ratify the proposal. But involving the whole of Spain. Not just "the will" of 4 out of 47 million people. Most regions in the world would separate, especially the rich ones, if you just asked the people in that region about their will.

free_cat wrote:

futbol wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:Nah. Why do Catalan's want independence anyway? In fact what is it with this Basque, Catalan, Andalusia etc etc. They're all part of Spain at the end of the day. No point splitting up a country just because they have different traditions. Doesn't every country at the end of the day?

The more interesting question is why these articles always pretend that Catalans could vote for their own independence with an upcoming "referendum". That so called "referendum" is nothing more than an opinion poll. You could just as well open a Facebook group and ask people to "sign" for Catalan independence. It has the exact same legal-binding.

In spain there are no legal binding referendums except for constitui and autonomy statutes ammendmnts, so all other referendums held in spain (acces to the OTAN or the European Constitution one basically) were exactly as binding as the catalan referendum to be hold on 9th November 2014.

However, we live in a democracy and the institutions and political parties are morally obliged to comply with the people's will, and if the YES to independence wins in 9th November 2014 catalan institutions will surely start the process of secession in accordance with the will of its people.

Surely, a facebook poll wouldn't be able to achieve that.

Well what happens if the other parts of Spain did their own poll and voted "No"... Then what?

actually, there is some kind of UN thing where it is ok according to international law for a minority people within a country to ask for independence if, within the geographic boundaries where such action is requested, 80% are in favor of independence.

So as far as international law goes, Catalunya has the right to go ahead with its internal vote.

Now, the issue with Spain is different. It depends if Catalunya agreed to an indissoluble relation when it became part of Spain. If it did, then there's nothing Catalunya can do short of going to war. Just as en example, over 120 years ago, the state of Texas made a petition to the United States congress asking that the US "peacefully grant the State of Texas the right to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own new government."... literally. The US Supreme Court rejected the request and here's what they said:

“When Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the state. The Act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final.”

futbol wrote:

free_cat wrote:

futbol wrote:

The more interesting question is why these articles always pretend that Catalans could vote for their own independence with an upcoming "referendum". That so called "referendum" is nothing more than an opinion poll. You could just as well open a Facebook group and ask people to "sign" for Catalan independence. It has the exact same legal-binding.

In spain there are no legal binding referendums except for constitui and autonomy statutes ammendmnts, so all other referendums held in spain (acces to the OTAN or the European Constitution one basically) were exactly as binding as the catalan referendum to be hold on 9th November 2014.

However, we live in a democracy and the institutions and political parties are morally obliged to comply with the people's will, and if the YES to independence wins in 9th November 2014 catalan institutions will surely start the process of secession in accordance with the will of its people.

Surely, a facebook poll wouldn't be able to achieve that.

There is no "morally obliged". Catalunya is under Spanish constitution. If they want to separate, constitutional law applies. Not moral law. Therefore they need a 2/3 majority in Spanish parliament to approve, a reelected parliamant that ratifies the decision and only then a conclusive referendum will be held to ratify the proposal. But involving the whole of Spain. Not just "the will" of 4 out of 47 million people. Most regions in the world would separate, especially the rich ones, if you just asked the people in that region about their will.

Well, what you quote would be the impossible way under spanish law to become an independent state. However, this is impossible there isn't any spanish party and almost no spanish individuals that favours the independence of catalonia, just catalan ones.

At some point of the independence process Catalonia will have to do something against spanish law. Law is not sacred. If law was sacred, we would have slaves, women couldn't vote, and blacks would have to attend to separated schools, etc. Over law, there's democracy. And in a case of soverignity, as this is the matter, it's only the people who want to be a sovereign country that decides. If this principle doesn't apply, every country in Europe could be democratically invaded by Russia, as they are the most populated country and could vote for everyone to be Russians.

There isn't international law on the matter, but none of it is against the formation of new states, especifically when the proceeding is democratic. See the  advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice regarding Kosovo's independence, which to sum up says that it didn't break international law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo's_declaration_of_independence