Re: Gary Neville: We've forgotten just what made British football great

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:48 pm

Pardew is f*cking backwards tbh.

In the 2nd half we did exactly what you say an Baines was anonymous.

But Ben Arfa wasn't on the pitch Laughing

So it was all down to Cabaye and Remy at that point, we nearly nicked an undeserved point but its too little too late.

Come the following week against Cardiff we play a legitimate 433 and pass Cardiff off the park.... i'm thinking what would Ben Arfa do when we are playing like this? he brings Ben Arfa on to close out the game and we hoof Laughing

Similar thing happened earlier in the season against West Ham.... we started with Shola upfront in a 442 and passed it around.... we take Shola off and we hoof :facepalm:

The man baffles me.

And yeah Baines isn't great of a defender anyway, you would think Ben Arfa could trouble him..... but nah not Pardew has to always think of stopping the opposition first( and more often than not fails at that Laughing

) before thinking about what our strengths are.

by VivaStPauli Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:22 pm

Pippo wrote:
jibers wrote:
zizzle wrote:when was British football great anyway ?
When Liverpool was raping Europe and when the EPl was putting 3 teams in the cl semis for 3 years in a row...

O and we invented football....so yea...
How many winners in that 3 year period?

And with how many English players?

by Highburied Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:36 pm

The Franchise wrote:
KennethCole wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Im still trying to get my head around the part where Pardew subbed Ben Arfa at half time for not tracking back Baines? Is that true?

Poor Mole.
Thats a bit hypocritical coming from a barca fan, no?

Everyone at Barca tracks back ... Oder?
I dont even know what they hell your talking about.

Yes you do .

But nevermind. This forum is full of shit these days.

by cyberman Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:41 pm

the style of british football is the style no matter where they come from.
ronaldo is the perfect british player, and hes not exactly from the midlands ffs.
the high pressing game thats used by barca and bayern was primarily copied from the british sides.
the first training session pep had, he showed the squad a video of the defending cl winners and urged them to copy their workrate and team pressing. he showed etoo clips of rooney and asked him could he work for the team as rooney did.
Martinez, ribery, robben, alaba, rafina, shaquiri, mandzukic.. pride of german football.
are madrid representive of the spanish game? they probably have less of a national spine than the british had ffs.. there were just more top british teams to criticise since theres only 2 in spain and 2 in germany. [ i say two in germany, but 1 season does not an example make]

by ExtremistEnigma Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:38 pm

cyberman wrote:the style of british football is the style no matter where they come from.
ronaldo is the perfect british player, and hes not exactly from the midlands ffs.
the high pressing game thats used by barca and bayern was primarily copied from the british sides.
the first training session pep had, he showed the squad a video of the defending cl winners and urged them to copy their workrate and team pressing. he showed etoo clips of rooney and asked him could he work for the team as rooney did.
Martinez, ribery, robben, alaba, rafina, shaquiri, mandzukic.. pride of german football.
are madrid representive of the spanish game? they probably have less of a national spine than the british had ffs.. there were just more top british teams to criticise since theres only 2 in spain and 2 in germany. [ i say two in germany, but 1 season does not an example make]

by rwo power Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:50 pm

But, but... Bayern copied Dortmund's pressing game, which in turn was inspired by Sacchi's Milan!

by Gil Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:58 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
Pippo wrote:
jibers wrote:When Liverpool was raping Europe and when the EPl was putting 3 teams in the cl semis for 3 years in a row...

O and we invented football....so yea...
How many winners in that 3 year period?
And with how many English players?

Who were the best players on those said teams?

by Kaladin Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Eagerly awaiting to hear Clockwork's thoughts on this

by Pip Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:52 pm

cyberman wrote:the style of british football is the style no matter where they come from.

Yes, and what is this "British style"? Neville seems to think that "the speed of the play, the tempo of passing, sprinting to the ball and getting out of the box quickly to play offside" are characteristics of British football. I just don't understand how sprinting to the ball can be labelled a British tactic, when even little kids in Mozambique that play with make-shift balls on uneven terrain know that they have to sprint to the ball?

cyberman wrote:ronaldo is the perfect british player, and hes not exactly from the midlands ffs.

He is the perfect British footballer because he is a fantastic athlete? Was Pelé the perfect British footballer as well, considering he had great leaping ability, physical strength, speed, and technique on the ball? That makes no sense, because you can go even further back to find examples of these "British" footballers.

cyberman wrote:the high pressing game thats used by barca and bayern was primarily copied from the british sides.

Gary Neville: We've forgotten just what made British football great - Page 2 1903015090

cyberman wrote:the first training session pep had, he showed the squad a video of the defending cl winners and urged them to copy their workrate and team pressing. he showed etoo clips of rooney and asked him could he work for the team as rooney did.

I'll assume that is false until you can provide a source for that, because Guardiola himself admitted he wanted to emulate Cruijff's style from his Dream Team.

cyberman wrote:Martinez, ribery, robben, alaba, rafina, shaquiri, mandzukic.. pride of german football.

Ribéry, Robben, Alaba, Rafinha, and Shaqiri all play a continental style of football, based on technical ability. That's what their main ability is, apart from their physical gifts. The vast majority of footballers are physically gifted and endowed with physical traits that non-athletes do not have. Mandzukic himself can be likened to someone like Carsten Jancker, who was possibly the poster-boy of dull German football in the late 90s to early 00s.

cyberman wrote:are madrid representive of the spanish game? they probably have less of a national spine than the british had ffs.. there were just more top british teams to criticise since theres only 2 in spain and 2 in germany. [ i say two in germany, but 1 season does not an example make]

Barcelona are the best team in Spain. The Spanish footballers they have in their side are: Valdés, Piqué, Puyol, Bartra, Alba, Montoya, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Fàbregas, Tello, and Pedro -- a total of 12. Manchester United are the best team in England. The English footballers they have in their side are: Jones, Ferdinand, Smalling, Carrick, Cleverley, Young, Zaha, Rooney, and Welbeck -- a total of 9.

Real Madrid are the second best team in Spain. The Spanish footballers they have in their side are: López, Casillas, Ramos, Carvajal, Arbeloa, Alonso, Illarramendi, Isco, Jesé, and Morata -- a total of 10. Manchester City are the second best team in Spain. The English footballers they have in their side are: Hart, Lescott, Richards, Rodwell, and Milner -- a total of 5.

Atlético de Madrid are the third best team in Spain. The Spanish footballers they have in their side are: Manquillo, Juanfran, Suárez, Gabi, Koke, García, Torres, Adrián, and Villa -- a total of 9. Chelsea are the third best team in England. The English footballers they have in their side are: Cahill, Terry, Bertrand, Cole, and Lampard -- a total of 5.

There's a greater "national spine" in the top Spanish clubs than there are English clubs.

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:00 am

cyberman wrote:the style of british football is the style no matter where they come from.
ronaldo is the perfect british player, and hes not exactly from the midlands ffs.
the high pressing game thats used by barca and bayern was primarily copied from the british sides.
the first training session pep had, he showed the squad a video of the defending cl winners and urged them to copy their workrate and team pressing. he showed etoo clips of rooney and asked him could he work for the team as rooney did.
Martinez, ribery, robben, alaba, rafina, shaquiri, mandzukic.. pride of german football.
are madrid representive of the spanish game? they probably have less of a national spine than the british had ffs.. there were just more top british teams to criticise since theres only 2 in spain and 2 in germany. [ i say two in germany, but 1 season does not an example make]

Except that Pep has stated that his high pressing style was inspired by Bielsa's teams (although it was probably a combination of numerous inspirations) who in turn was inspired by Dutch football. Pep doubtless had many role models and took the best from different former coaches, colleagues and friends. It's possible that Pep used SAF's team as an example but very unlikely that they were an inspiration from him.

by The Franchise Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:00 pm

KennethCole wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
KennethCole wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Im still trying to get my head around the part where Pardew subbed Ben Arfa at half time for not tracking back Baines? Is that true?

Poor Mole.
Thats a bit hypocritical coming from a barca fan, no?

Everyone at Barca tracks back ... Oder?
I dont even know what they hell your talking about.

Yes you do .

But nevermind. This forum is full of shit these days.

Do us a favour and find somewhere else then.

by che Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:21 pm

Gil wrote:
Who were the best players on those said teams?

drogba, ronaldive, fabregas and gerrard? Laughing

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:30 pm

Lets be honest.... those CL winning teams and successful consecutive Semi final teams were very british heavy.

Liverpool were, Man Utd were and Chelsea were.

Also Neville is right.... you just have to understand what he's trying to say.... high pressing and high tempo game is very British he's not saying they completely ripped it from the best British teams but the high tempo stuff is very British.

Obviously there is some very italian methods in Barca, Dortmund and Bayern.

Its a mixture of both really and he's right and he's right to question it.... when English teams were on top they were on top because the European teams at the time couldn't live with the tempo they played at you have to question why that went away.

English teams have gone away from that style last few years and tried to go a more continental route and quite frankly it hasn't really worked out for them and you really have to question why.

by Lord Awesome Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:35 pm

*SIGH* What's wrong with British footy, in the first place. Is England still not one of the Elite in Football, Club or NT wise?

by che Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:38 pm

that's nonsense... if english teams were dominant because of the "tempo" why weren't they running over the cl in the two previous decades, but it was italian and spanish teams that were doing it? nevermind the fact that all the teams that made the semis apart from man utd did so with continental managers, none of whom were exactly famous for breakneck forward transition

the reason english teams dominated europe was simply because they hit a sweet spot of hoovering a ton of european talent while the other top teams were languishing... once barcelona came into the play and bayern and madrid recovered english teams were nowhere to be found

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:41 pm

Hoovering up all the european talent? lol.

The Man Utd team that won the CL had Ferdinand, Neville, Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick and Rooney and many more Laughing

by The Franchise Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:46 pm

I dont think high tempo and high pressing brought English teams any CL success in the first place.

Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool and even Arsenal have all done better the more defensive and cautious they have been.

by che Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:56 pm

great, so that's one out of four representatives with a mostly british core, great job

chelsea had drogba, essien, cech, carvalho, ballack, god knows who else... liverpool was run by spanish players (and coach)... arsenal, i'm not even going there, i'm probably overestimating when i say they had two british players in the squad during those years

this english pretentiousness drives me up the *bleep* wall... epl teams were utterly irrelevant to the european competition for a decade, with the exception of man utd one year... ffs rafa's first run with liverpool was the second final appearance of an english team in a cl final... valencia had more cl final appearances than man utd until 2008 :facepalm:

the rise of english clubs had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with british football, exactly the opposite... it was the influx of foreign managers that allowed them to finally get even close to european competition, but go ahead and keep jerking about good british boys playing good solid high tempo football

by Pip Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:15 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Also Neville is right.... you just have to understand what he's trying to say.... high pressing and high tempo game is very British he's not saying they completely ripped it from the best British teams but the high tempo stuff is very British.

How is high pressing and high tempo very British? If I recall correctly, I remember Sir Thomas Finney saying he had never seen a type of team playing such an innovative style of football after Hungary's "total football" variant embarrassed England in 1953. Puskás himself said of the Mighty Magyars that they were the prototype for "total football". So if there was a difference between Hungary's innovative, continental style of football that was completely dominant against the British "high tempo and high pressing", why would Thomas Finney and William Wright both gush about Hungary's style of football? Or did Gusztáv Sebes just rip all of his tactics from Britain?

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:42 pm

To be fair to Neville all his examples date no earlier than mid 80s. So he's not trying to make a historical analysis, only one relating to how the English play in recent history.

Che wrote:the rise of english clubs had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with british football, exactly the opposite... it was the influx of foreign managers that allowed them to finally get even close to european competition, but go ahead and keep jerking about good british boys playing good solid high tempo football

Neville is not arguing that they should go back to the way it was before, he uses 2007-10 as the ideal arguing that they had the balance between the 'British' and 'Continental' ways right and now the balance is off and they must go back to their roots. I agree that it's a bit disingenuous that he uses examples with such heavily-foreign based teams, but he's not denying the importance of foreign ideas and managers.

by Pip Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:37 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:To be fair to Neville all his examples date no earlier than mid 80s. So he's not trying to make a historical analysis, only one relating to how the English play in recent history.

Football did not begin in the mid-80s, and even by the mid-80s if "British football" was high pressing and high tempo, then that means the British have just ripped off from other nations like Austria, Hungary, and Brazil. He is only giving mid-80s examples because I can assure you that if he went even further back, he will have learned something about the Mighty Magyars.

BBC, November 2003 -- 50th anniversary of the 3:6 defeat to Hungary:

England were not merely beaten, but absolutely outclassed. The visitors brought a new vision of the game to Wembley. Their 4-2-4 system was based on first-time passing by players who ran hardest when they were nowhere near the ball. Hungary waltzed to a 6-3 victory, with Puskas scoring two goals. Sir Robert Robson: "The game had a profound effect, not just on myself but on all of us. That one game alone changed our thinking. We thought we would demolish this team - England at Wembley, we are the masters, they are the pupils. It was absolutely the other way."

The defeat started a revolution in English football. After 90 years of supremacy, England had been forced to concede that another country could play the game better than they could. Over the next few years Winterbottom, who was also director of coaching for the Football Association, slowly introduced what he had learned from the Hungarians into English football.

The result sent a shockwave through English football; for the first time, English manager and coaches started to look to the continent for tactical and training advances. Matt Busby at Manchester United was amongst the first to recognise that competing with the best European sides was essential to further the English game, and ensured that his team competed in the early European Cup - despite initial objections from the FA about English clubs taking part in the competition. Don Revie was an admirer of the Hungarian team, and enjoyed a late flourish to his playing career by adopting the Hidegkuti withdrawn centre forward role at Manchester City to great success, renaming it the "Revie plan". Bill Nicholson at Tottenham Hotspur was a swift adopter of the Hungarian principles, and used them to build the first English double-winning team of the 20th century, and to win the first European trophy - the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup - by an English side. Ron Greenwood built a successful European Cup Winners Cup side at West Ham based on the Hungarian team principles. Don Revie and Malcolm Allison adopted training and coaching schedules based on the Hungarian coaching styles.

The effect of this match on Alf Ramsey and Greenwood may be measured from the fact that England's 1966 World Cup winning side contained something of a club nucleus when Ramsey selected three West Ham players (Bobby Moore, Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters), and in 1977 when Greenwood picked 6 Liverpool players (Ray Clemence, Phil Neal, Emlyn Hughes, Terry McDermott, Ray Kennedy and Ian Callaghan) to play Switzerland.

And thus by only giving mid-80s examples, Neville has essentially showed that these British sides were innovated from the merits of Béla Guttmann, Flavio Costa and his Brazilian team and Gusztáv Sebes and his Hungarian team. I just do not understand how Neville can possibly say that the British game was based on high tempo and the like, when there are player quotes from the 3:6 loss to Hungary which show the players shock over the ability and style of football played by the Hungarians.

FIFA, September 2000

Flavio Costa, then the Brazilian national coach, published an article in the newspaper O Cruzeiro in which he explained, with the aid of schematic diagrams, what he then called the "diagonal system". It was to be a pre-cursor of the 4-2-4. Modern football, according to Costa, "has lost its improvisation", and he made it his motto that a team should "defend well so that they can attack even better." A version of the French maxim "reculer pour mieux sauter" (take a step back if you want to jump better). Zeze Moreira, another respected figure in South America at that time, also proposed a system for covering the penalty area, whose aim was: "let in fewer goals, score more". And simultaneously it was a fore-runner of the 4-4-2.

The 4-2-4 was a new development into the game that was meant to counter the 2-3-5 and the "WM". It then evolved into two branches -- the 4-3-3 (through Brazil) and the 4-4-2 (through Britain). The 4-3-3 then evolved into a new formation, and the 4-4-2 was adopted by many clubs, including the major English teams. This entire "British football culture" that Neville is trying to spew is nothing more than nicely written garbage. And then you have to see what Neville concludes his article with: "The modern identity of a British team shouldn’t change. It should have a tough back four that tackles hard and pushes up. It should have midfielders who get to the ball and win it back and wide players who sprint backwards as quickly as they do forwards." Neville here is saying that the modern identity of a British team is the 4-4-2, with his description of positions. But the truth is that the 4-4-2 has roots to the 4-2-4, which is a creation from Hungary and Brazil.

by zigra Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:24 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Lets be honest.... those CL winning teams and successful consecutive Semi final teams were very british heavy.

Liverpool were, Man Utd were and Chelsea were.

CL finale 2005, Liverpool. British players in the squad: 3/18 (16.7%), used in the game 2/14 (14.3%)
CL finale 2008, Manchester United . British players in the squad: 8/18 (44.4%), used in the game 4/14 (50.0%)
CL finale 2012, Chelsea. British players in the squad: 6/18 (33.3%), used in the game 4/14 (28.6%)

United were british, yes. But the rest? No. You can look up the lost finals aswell and it's the same. United has a lot of british players but that's it. Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea had very few british players.

by cyberman Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:53 am

So what if Hungary pressed before England did. It still made England great. You lot are jumping on this like he claimed England invented the style. You have an argument in your head that doesn't exist.
English football is unique with the high intensity played at speed. Foreign teams couldn't live with playing away in England in their prime. It's just fact.
I see Madrid having 10 spaniards including what? 4 players who just make up the squad. That's not a spine..
British style is British style. Same way Muhammad alis style was based off of sugar ray Leonard and money mayweather styled after his father.
Is Spanish football a fraud because their primary tiki taka total football is an Ajax/ Dutch rip off?
Have a word with yourselves