In defence of there referree Undiano Mallenco, second Piqué yellow card was because Vela was in a very dangerous position close to Barcelona's goal while most of Alves's fouls were in the middle of the park.

danyjr wrote:In defence of there referree Undiano Mallenco, second Piqué yellow card was because Vela was in a very dangerous position close to Barcelona's goal while most of Alves's fouls were in the middle of the park.

True, but Alves also committed a foul on the side, when someone (I forgot who) was in a great position to put a cross into the box. That was at least as dangerous as where Pique committed his foul.

The point is, Pique is often given cards, in my opinion, for relatively little. By the letter of the law, Pique could of got a yellow...but by the letter of the law, Dani should of got one for "persistent fouling".

Pique's foul, he didnt even leave the ground in the tackle, he tried to pull out of the tackle and Vela simply got to the ball ahead of him. Its very harsh for a 2nd yellow I believe, at least in comparison to other things in the game.

Pique posted this apparently on twitter.

"Season 2012-13: 14 games played, seven fouls committed, five yellow cards, one red,"

I have noticed how often he gets cards, many times for a single foul. To me this is not normal. Its not in the rules, but generally speaking it isnt 1 foul = yellow.

They have to be bad, reckless fouls to be getting a foul on a first offense. Either that or they have to be a tactical foul.

And Pique isn't tackling reckless enough or fouling tactically enough for 5 of his fouls to be yellow. The only player who could have that stat and have it make slight sense is Busquets.

Exactly, and Busquets didnt exactly that..slide in from behind, late because it was a counter..so he rightly got a yellow.

But again, consistency.

Harmonica wrote:Messi should run more and score less, that will make things better for sure.

He can score 90 goals again but if he acts like a diva on the pitch,he is going to get criticized.The team comes first.

On the game,having watched it,I felt the biggest problem was our disjointed midfield.Its pretty obvious that the lineup fielded is our main starting lineup and barring any surprises will be playing all major games.
That means Iniesta starting on the left,with Cesc in midfield.Iniesta drifts into midfield and Cesc goes out wide.When it works,it can look good as it has the past few game.Cesc even scored a goal from that play.The issue is when it doesnt work as against Sociedad.Our midfield can look very disjointed.
Iniesta didnt get the ball much on the wing and he kept coming pushing Cesc wide.At times Iniesta was found in RM.This meant that we had all four midfielders extremely close to each other in the middle of the pitch.Combine that with Messi dropping and we have a disjointed midfield.The players too close to each other and no one making moves to create passing options.
Against the big teams,it might cost us.They will surely catch onto it.Just deny Iniesta the ball on the left and lead him into midfield.Cesc wont do much from the side anyway.Our midfield becomes a bit dysfunctional.
Precisely why Iniesta on the left is not a great strategy.Play Villa on the left and Iniesta in midfield.
Tito seems to be making the same mistake Pep did last season.Trying to fit too many midfielders into the 11.Once in a while to use it fine.But to keep using it,teams will soon catch on and negate it.

I agree, I said I feel it could cost us in bigger games should we use it and im still not convinced by it, Saturday and Malaga might make a sneak preview as to why.

I am tired of saying it, but you need 3 real forwards on the pitch...I believe that whole-heartily untill I see us win otherwise.

I dont know why we keep falling into the same old trap of overloading what doesnt need overloading. The midfield will always dominate, they are too good and with a false 9 like Messi in that area its not only technically superior, it is outnumbering the opponent from behind and in front. Adding yet another body doesnt give an additional benefit which outweighs what I think we could lose against tougher opponants.

Yes, I think we can win games with it, especially in La Liga, many games..but the best of the best, I dont think it will work enough.

Having the interchange with Iniesta-Cesc and having an overlapping fullback in Alba vs a come inside fullback in Adriano or a back up play fullback like Abidal is an improvement...but I still dont buy into it full-time.

I felt the game screamed for changes, but as I said before, Tito waited for too long and when he did it, it wasnt really what I wanted either.

I felt when we went down to 10 men, Tito did the right move, but when we should of been pushing the game as they fought back, we didnt make a move.

I felt at 2-1 was was trying to hold on, at 2-2 I felt we were settling for the draw. The tackle of Busquets and Alba in the third goal wasnt tackles of men trying to win the ball back and win the game..it was of men looking to hold on..desperate and hopeful rather than authoritative and determined.

I wanted to see this while they were making their come back.


-----------------------Mascherano-------Puyol--------------------

Dani Alves-----------------------Busquets----------------------Alba

------------------Messi--------------------------Iniesta-----------

Pedro-----------------------------------------------------------Tello


Messi might of got more involved if put into that role with Xavi gone, perhaps we would of made more of an effort....but more importantly, we would of given them something to fear going the other way in the pure speed of Tello.

As it was Iniesta has to carry the team in attack (because Messi didnt want for whatever reason) while helping the center of midfield and also making his way back to fullback.

I can't analyse the match because my position in the stands was quite bad and I was pretty drunk.

However, I don't really get the criticism towards Messi. We already knew that Messi is the professional footballer that runs the least? It's part of our gameplan and instructed by our coaches. Messi comittment is proven and there's no sign that is erasing. If he doesn't run more is either because he is instructed not to do so ore because he is tired.

Considering we are late january, it's likely that Messi and the team generally is tired, as we usually do strong training workload in late january-february in order to peak at the end of the season. If you remember, we sucked big time every season during this dates under Pep, and Tito must be doing the same.

All the team looked "jaded".

One thing I wil say, it's a mistake to not use substitutions when your team goes one man down, especially if you look jaded. IMO Tello should have come in for Pedro to exploit the space in a counter and one of Adriano/Alexis/Thiago for Xavi to add steal and counterattack making it a counterattacking 441 with more rested people.

Well with all due respect then,if Messi has been instructed by our coaches not to run,especially when we are down to 10 men and in danger of losing,then I think thats pretty stupid.
I also dont get why he cant run more.I mean if a player like CR7 can put in a defensive shift,then why cant Messi?
As is clear for everyone to see,him not running more has clearly completely messed up our pressing game.

Honestly, I never doubt Messi's willingness and commitment to the cause. Never.

However, I dont know if he is tired of what, but what he was doing was lazy. I dont know what else I can call it.

We were down a man, I think its unacceptable you dont run yourself into the ground when your on equal terms...when your down a man, how can you do that?

If anyone told Messi not to run, its frankly stupid and I am not even sure I can believe it..professional coaches telling someone not to put in any defensive effort.

I am used to Messi's inconsistent (I say that word because he sometimes does put in good effort, even great effort) effort in terms of pressing...sometimes we can get away with it if he chooses the correct game to do it, I dont like it, but I am not shocked by it anymore....but the lack of effort in attack I could not fathom. I literally dont remember him TRYING (let alone failing) to dribble anyone and his lack involvement in the game in the 2nd half...it was inexplicable...the only time I seen him that quite was when teams have 11 men inside their own box, even then I think I saw more of him. It was very strange.

Maybe he was tired..but I think Iniesta was tired too having to do 3 jobs in one. Messi didnt even put half the effort of Iniesta.

But anyway, im glad you watched the game drunk Free...that might of helped me too

alexjanosik wrote:Well with all due respect then,if Messi has been instructed by our coaches not to run,especially when we are down to 10 men and in danger of losing,then I think thats pretty stupid.
I also dont get why he cant run more.I mean if a player like CR7 can put in a defensive shift,then why cant Messi?
As is clear for everyone to see,him not running more has clearly completely messed up our pressing game.

We have won 55 out of 60 points.
Are on our way to beat the record of scored goals.
Our defensive record with the regular defence is good.
So, no It's not clear to me that Messi running little has meesed up our pressing game.

CR7 is a physical monster, Messi lacks a lot of stamina and also we don't want him injured. I think he was doing what he is instructed and what stamina allowed him. He does look very static and lazy several games a season, usually in a row, but he then picks it up.

Messi, since Guardiola took over, consitently runs 2-3 km less than his colleagues in games.
It wasn't like this before Pep.
It's obvious that he has been instructed to run the least possible.

But I think he runs less KM wise more because he is in the middle..when he was out on the wing, he was tracking back fullbacks.

I dont think the distance he covers is a problem, its more that in other seasons with Pep he would press that little 10-15m in a sprint, rather than a jog/quick walk.

free_cat wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:Well with all due respect then,if Messi has been instructed by our coaches not to run,especially when we are down to 10 men and in danger of losing,then I think thats pretty stupid.
I also dont get why he cant run more.I mean if a player like CR7 can put in a defensive shift,then why cant Messi?
As is clear for everyone to see,him not running more has clearly completely messed up our pressing game.

We have won 55 out of 60 points.
Are on our way to beat the record of scored goals.
Our defensive record with the regular defence is good.
So, no It's not clear to me that Messi running little has meesed up our pressing game.

CR7 is a physical monster, Messi lacks a lot of stamina and also we don't want him injured. I think he was doing what he is instructed and what stamina allowed him. He does look very static and lazy several games a season, usually in a row, but he then picks it up.

I dont see any correlation between winning 55 out of 60 points and our pressing game.Dont see how you can infer that us winning so many points means our pressing game is fine when it clearly is not.
How many balls do we win high up the pitch these days?Why do you think it is that our wide forwards drop back quickly without the ball,when in previous seasons they would press relentlessly to win it back?
Why do you think it is that Xavi and Fabregas have to come from midfield to put pressure on the CB's thereby leaving one less man in midfield?
Why do you think it is that the other teams CB's are easily able to play the ball out of defense?
So pls dont tell me that our pressing game hasnt been messed up due to Messi running less.

I am completely fine with the loss and not pushing Messi to run his best, we are in the position to do these plays because we have such a lead, if anything I wouldn't of started messi that game and rested him for Malaga.
Just unlucky today to be honest, hitting the post the red and midfield not playing regular game
Can't get so mad over those things just need to get over it and pick it up thursday.

alexjanosik wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Messi should run more and score less, that will make things better for sure.

He can score 90 goals again but if he acts like a diva on the pitch,he is going to get criticized.The team comes first.

He needs to also act more humble on the pitch? Got it.

Harmonica wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Messi should run more and score less, that will make things better for sure.

He can score 90 goals again but if he acts like a diva on the pitch,he is going to get criticized.The team comes first.

He needs to also act more humble on the pitch? Got it.

If you didn't narrow down his point to something as simple as this you would have understood the tactical sacrifices made when he doesn't press.

If he did actually press the opposition then Pardo wouldn't have been as effective passing through the lanes as he did. If he wasn't walking around so lethargically then Prieto would at least break a sweat instead of being left open to split Barca's wide defence as he did on Sunday. If he even bothered to position himself for attacking positions from Iniesta coming in centre then surely their would be a more potent chance from him other then his non-existent performance in the 2nd half.

Fact is no matter how many goals Messi scores, he will have to bust his ass as this team-mates do to function as a pressing unit as otherwise risking a serious collapse down the advanced centre given that the whole team is responsible for cohesively keeping the integrity of their press, including Messi.

Alex is 100% spot on here as I brought the same point at the beginning of last season within this section and many agreed.

I understand the assumed point perfectly. Messi will score less, create less and starts to injury more if he starts to run like a headless chicken on the pitch, just so that we can get the ball back couple times more quickly. Then when he's exhausted he can try his patented dribbling, creating, building the attack and scoring. I'm sure Barca will have more points than 55/60 with that tactic. Got it.

Harmonica wrote:I understand the assumed point perfectly. Messi will score less, create less and starts to injury more if he starts to run like a headless chicken on the pitch, just so that we can get the ball back couple times more quickly. Then when he's exhausted he can try his patented dribbling, creating, building the attack and scoring. I'm sure Barca will have more points than 55/60 with that tactic. Got it.

I comprehend and almost agree with some of your points. Yet...

There is a reason why Alex, I and multiple Barca fans have criticized Messi for his very lethargic off the ball movement aside from the intermittent run. See its not that he isn't putting any defensive work or tracking back, but its the fact that he is literally walking during plays instead of even trotting to cover the attack or position himself for the ball which is bothersome to some Barca fans. I understand that its a delicate matter to conserve stamina and not consume the vital energy needed for him to play every game, yet Alex expects such a team player, the best player in the world to abide by Pep's philosophy of having the attackers press or at least position himself for the opposition to consider other options. Me, while supporting Sociedad noticed this more then I ever did and it not only reduced the attacking threat of Barca since its built up front around Messi, but it severely reduced the pressure on Sociedad considering Prieto was not being pressed down the advanced central.

No player is bigger then the team as just walking around the parameter of the pitch at any time is unacceptable.

If he walked every match I would agree, but he doesn't. Hence, the most likely is that he was tired, probably because it's load period.