Ok.It is obviously that English teams had bad performances in Europe last seasons compared to Spanish and German teams for example.

In 2011 United played the UCL final and last season Chelsea won it but, let's be fair and realise that last year Chelsea was the most luckiest team to ever reach an UCL final.No other English teams showed great performances in European competitions.

Liverpool can't even manage to play in Europe in the last few years, Arsenal isn't looking well too.United was eliminated last season having an awful performance in the group stage like City had this and last season in Champions League. We can remember that period when United played 3 UCL finals in 4 years (and that 100% EPL final from 08').Liverpool won UCL in 2005 + 07 final (+Arsenal vs Barca in 2006) and 3 semifinalists were almost every year from England.That period is gone and the teams from La Liga and Bundesliga win a lot of points in UCL and Europa League.

Spanish and German teams had fabulos performances in Europa League and also in UCL and it is obviously that they did better in the last 2 or 3 years.Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to compare La Liga, BL, EPL or Serie A, but I am talking about the lower performances that Premier League teams had in the last few seasons.

All Spanish teams use possession as their tactic to attack and put pressure on the opposite teams.Also BL teams, especially BVB and B Munich use almost the same style of play, while the English teams are still trying to use their physical strength and sometimes defend with the whole team because they can't keep the ball and can't create enough opportunities to score goals.

I really get scared when I am watching Malaga, Betis, At Madrid, Valencia, Barca, Real, Levante, Bayern Munich, BVB, Schalke, Leverkusen because all the players look fresh even in the 90th minute and almost all of those teams have a great passing game which seems to be developed especially in La Liga since Guardiola started his era at Barcelona.

Where is the problem?Discuss together and find it!Coaches?Style of play?Too much money invested in the wrong players?Can the transfer policy be a problem?Too much money used without head?What should EPL teams change if they want to regain their old great performances in the European competitions or at least to play better in Europe?Should they try to adopt the possession tactic?Should they try to use their youth academies more?Maybe there is something else.

Need better deep midfielders

More Cabayes less Barrys etc

Swanhends wrote:Need better deep midfielders

More Cabayes less Barrys etc

Well that and coaches that have a clue.... Mancini's tactics in the CL

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Swanhends wrote:Need better deep midfielders

More Cabayes less Barrys etc

Well that and coaches that have a clue.... Mancini's tactics in the CL

What tactics?

I think England first should try to figure out what style they want to play and then try to get the fitting coaches and players to do right that.

(Basically what Germany did a couple years ago - a brainstorming session between coaches of League and NT where they pondered what they wanted to do and what they could achieve in which way. )

IMO there is no use to try to play something without the fitting players, so the bigwigs need to find something that is suited for the player material at hand. If they figured out their style, they can implement it and start to teach youngsters and as soon as they feel comfortable playing it, they will be able to use it successfully, too.

Swanhends wrote:Need better deep midfielders

More Cabayes less Barrys etc

Hey, you watch it.

Brave Scotty Parker is a real honest lad.

Swanhends wrote:Need better deep midfielders

More Cabayes less Barrys etc

I understand you but maybe EPL needs its Isco, its Arda Turan, its Xavi, Ignacio Camacho, Emiliano Armenteros etc. EPL is based on strength more than on technical abilities.Even the most unskilful players from La Liga are beasts compared to EPL players when it comes about dribblings .They also run like beasts and have a great passing game based on short, simple and 1 touch play & passes.They use a free form of positioning in the field while EPL teams are sometimes very foreseeable at least when it comes about direct duels in Europe with la Liga or BL teams.Remember that City 1-1 BVB ?

Of course, EPL still has great talents and skillful players like Silva, Mata, Hazard, Aguero, Nasri, Cazorla, Nani etc. but it seems to be not enough.

Can't England produce players like those in the list above?Buying them from other countries is the only possibility?

Also, the tactics seem to be a big big problem.The project itself, including youth academies and the transfer policy.Growing up the young players with the style of play of each player from the senior team, if the team really has a defined style .

The old Arsenal is gone . I can see the players at Arsenal running on the pitch without having to much ideas of what they're doing and this is happening at many teams in EPL in many games.Chaos...

Get playmakers.
Deep ones and tens.

English teams either hoof it, or come through the wings, which makes them rely on crosses a lot again. No danger in the middle means the opposing midfield can concentrate on destroying your defense, which is what happened to most English teams in the UCL.

At some point EPL teams stopped giving a toss about midfield players. I don't know why, but it's the most obvious flaw in even the most retardedly expensive squads.

Just look at City. Spend billions, yet start Milner and f*cking Barry.

I think English teams have gotten away from (in Europe im speaking) what made them good in Europe in the first place.

Their success's generally speaking have come when coaches had a more structured defence minded team.

When they were doing well, most teams didnt have those technical midfielders then either...they had organization, defence and structure.

Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd at different times and even Arsenal have done it having defensive structure in place.

Now, they try and play in Europe, they arent attacking like the underdogs they are technically and inviting open games they are struggling in.

These teams need to find their old identity I believe.

That doesnt mean every English team must play defensively, Man Utd arent this season (though we will see if that costs them later) and Arsenal of course in the past were rarely a defensive team in games...but teams like City, I have no idea why they arent trying that style.

So we're just going to act like an English club didn't win the CL last year? and United weren't in the final in the previous year? And there wasn't an English club in a CL final for like 5/6 straight years?

PL > BL. Get over it and end the OTT German propaganda already. So much hype over anything German, and what do they have to show for it?

Cycles happen, move on.

Yeah, but the round of 16 is here and there are only 2 teams left. And as a whole (not just one team) they arent doing as well as some year ago...dont you remember England having 3 semi finalists before?

The question what can they improve...they can improve cant they?

Stop being a premface for a second.

Gil wrote:Cycles happen, move on.

Yeah and the PL cycle is done, unless the English clubs do something. A cycle can turn into a slippery slope pretty quickly.

Its definitely true that english teams need an identity and the players and coaches to fit it i don't see why we should ignore it and act as if the problem will magically disappear.

As for the producing players, everyone knows the set up at grassroot level has been a joke for ages, we are starting to sort the youth side out but you won't see the effects for at least 10 years.

Just like Germany didn't when they started it and Spain didn't see the effects for going on 2 decades before the fruits of their labour was seen these things take time.

But at least for now we can set up in a way which suits the players the teams have because its quite obvious we try the old " you have a shot and we have a shot mentality" and in the main it doesn't work.

Team chemistry.

It counts for so, so, so much in Europe. I cannot stress this enough.

In the EPL's top teams there is virtually no team chemistry at the moment - especially in a team like Man City. They have an insane level of quality and depth on paper, but really they are just a group of individuals working for themselves instead of working for each other. The best team on paper doesn't always win. The team that has clear aims and purpose as a group (coach included) is often the winner. And sometimes that is actually the best team on paper (see Barca's recent CL wins). I think that Chelsea's crisis after going down to Napoli in Italy and then having their coach sacked drew their players together. They had nothing to lose at that stage and gave their all. Even if Chelsea was tactically simplistic (park the bus & hoofball), they at least had a collective idea about how they wanted to play and the team was committed to executing that plan.

Leadership is important too. You can't just let 3 consecutive captains of the club leave, let alone go to rival European or domestic clubs (a la Arsenal). The Captain, along with the coach, is the enforcer of the collective purpose. He sticks the team together. He's the guy that tells his team it's time to focus. If you lose leadership, you lose a pivotal part of this collective ethos.

This also ties in with the development of a philosophy. This should really be done pre-season and built up and perfected over a few seasons instead of being adopted ad hoc when times get tough. It helps to give that collective purpose to the team well in advance of any crisis.

Gil wrote:So we're just going to act like an English club didn't win the CL last year? and United weren't in the final in the previous year? And there wasn't an English club in a CL final for like 5/6 straight years?

PL > BL. Get over it and end the OTT German propaganda already. So much hype over anything German, and what do they have to show for it?

Cycles happen, move on.

You didn't understand my point.

rwo power wrote:I think England first should try to figure out what style they want to play and then try to get the fitting coaches and players to do right that.

(Basically what Germany did a couple years ago - a brainstorming session between coaches of League and NT where they pondered what they wanted to do and what they could achieve in which way. )

IMO there is no use to try to play something without the fitting players, so the bigwigs need to find something that is suited for the player material at hand. If they figured out their style, they can implement it and start to teach youngsters and as soon as they feel comfortable playing it, they will be able to use it successfully, too.

Yes, I believe that this is a really good strategy.The problem is that it isn't happening in EPL because the club owners of teams like City, Chelsea, QPR etc. are used to transfer every player available on the transfer market without having any filters.They don't have filters when they are searching players because they don't have a strategy so they don't know what kind of player they really need.They are just buying, throwing away a lot of money.

Liverpool invested a lot of money last 2 or 3 years but I can remember that they were involved in almost all transfer rumours possible.And now, maybe they have individual quality but they are awful as a team .

Arsenal can't keep their players.Wenger developed excellent players at the club, but all of them are gone because the lack of trophies and motivation probabily.Right now, Arsenal looks pretty bad.Their young players look bewildered and the mature part of the squad can't cope with them in harmony.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Its definitely true that english teams need an identity and the players and coaches to fit it i don't see why we should ignore it and act as if the problem will magically disappear.

As for the producing players, everyone knows the set up at grassroot level has been a joke for ages, we are starting to sort the youth side out but you won't see the effects for at least 10 years.

Just like Germany didn't when they started it and Spain didn't see the effects for going on 2 decades before the fruits of their labour was seen these things take time.

But at least for now we can set up in a way which suits the players the teams have because its quite obvious we try the old " you have a shot and we have a shot mentality" and in the main it doesn't work.

Yes.We won't see the effects very soon, but will we ever see the effects?Have we started to use our youth academies for developing players who can make the difference for our clubs in the future?

Spend more money to keep up with La Ligas spending.

vladdy wrote:Yes, I believe that this is a really good strategy.The problem is that it isn't happening in EPL because the club owners of teams like City, Chelsea, QPR etc. are used to transfer every player available on the transfer market without having any filters.They don't have filters when they are searching players because they don't have a strategy so they don't know what kind of player they really need.They are just buying, throwing away a lot of money.

I guess in that case the main problem is that you have owners who either demand instant gratification (like Roman Abramovich who buys everything that is the fad right now, the hire and fire mentality) or who want to maximize their profits (the guys at Arsenal who prefer to sell in quantities). Both strategies are not really useful for a successful long-term project.

But maybe the EPL guys (that is, the board that is responsible for stuff like negotiating the TV deals etc) need some advisor who makes it clear to them that they actually could earn more money if the style of playing gets more attractive (yes, the EPL has fast pace, but they hoof a lot and continental teams are more often than not able to outplay the teams nowadays), but atm it is muchly the TV pundits who tell the viewers they are watching the best product ever. Unfortunately, the viewers can only be convinced about that for so long - if the teams continue to fall short and if the stadium atmosphere gets staler and staler (which happens by outpricing the vocal support and inviting more corporate and well-paying visitors), they will likely start to doubt the claims. (Although the stadium atmosphere probably can be "fixed" by artificially adding sound effects for the TV broadcast, if they do not already do that.)

vladdy wrote:Liverpool invested a lot of money last 2 or 3 years but I can remember that they were involved in almost all transfer rumours possible.And now, maybe they have individual quality but they are awful as a team .

For some reason this seems to be a fundamental problem in England - the superstars come before the team. If I say I wouldn't take a player like CRonaldo (not EPL, sure, but he is still a good example) or Gerrard for free in a team, people who are fans of such players usually go ballistic and say I have no idea of football. They usually miss the point though - such players have severe difficulties to be real team players and demand too much attention for themselves. (As a matter of fact, that is also the reason why I'm not really a fan of Robben as he more often than not messes up the team play. Ribéry on the other hand finally seems to have understood the principle.) For some reasons, the managers of many EPL teams seam to prefer big names before a working concept for a while. That puzzles me a lot as there are many long-term managers with big names who should know better, but probably they get pressure from the owners to get big names into their teams as these owners probably think that one or the other superstar can win them everything.

vladdy wrote:Arsenal can't keep their players.Wenger developed excellent players at the club, but all of them are gone because the lack of trophies and motivation probabily.Right now, Arsenal looks pretty bad.Their young players look bewildered and the mature part of the squad can't cope with them in harmony.

Well, Arsenal puzzles me, too. Do the owners put Wenger under pressure to sell to make a bigger profit? The club certainly doesn't have too little money to give the players adequate contracts. Or is WEnger simply unable to implant a vision in his players?

vladdy wrote:Yes.We won't see the effects very soon, but will we ever see the effects?Have we started to use our youth academies for developing players who can make the difference for our clubs in the future?

I think you will only see effects if the players are educated in a way that actually benefits the senior teams and if they are allowed to play. If the education doesn't fit with the senior teams or if they can't get past freshly bought superstars, then the young players will stay on the benches and wither there.

EPL is perfect.

No need to change alot.

I don't think there's a problem.

Art Morte wrote:I don't think there's a problem.

So according to you, EPL teams are perfect and don't need any change.

And you believe that despite evidence to the contrary, ranging from the fact that your champions were eliminated from CL two years in a row. The fact that the English NT is woefully bad. And the fact that you no longer dominate the CL as you used to.

Not all of those teams use possession.

Wait til the new TV deal is spread among the clubs.

highburied wrote:Wait til the new TV deal is spread among the clubs.

But that will only continue the problems as even more expensive players will be bought that will have egos to match and won't form a team.

Needs more of these:

Spoiler:

And less of these:

Spoiler:

EPL mid table teams are excellent, they don't need to change anything.

Top 5-6 DO need to improve though. They all have individual problems in one way or another.