Re: Players who ruined their legacy

by Gil Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:26 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Gil wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Gone on, make a bigger fool of yourself.

Which of these guys is he better than?

Cruyff, Guillt, Van Hanegem, Rensenbrink, Keizer and if you want go back to far enough, Wilkes.

Cruyff, van Hanegem and Gullit are obviously better than him.

Keizer was a journeyman and I don't know about the rest. Which tells you all you need to know.

GOAT MVB Robben
Van Hanegem Gullit
Neeskens
Krol Rijkaard Koeman Suurbier
VDS

He scores the sitter and he's a lock for the all time XI

U mad?

So Robben over Seedorf, Wilkes, Rensenbrink, and Bergakamp?

Not a chance.

We're comparing midfielders and strikers with wingers now?

Play everyone in their traditional positions and he gets in easily with a winning goal in the clutch.

by Arquitecto Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:50 pm

Gil wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:
Gil wrote:

Cruyff, van Hanegem and Gullit are obviously better than him.

Keizer was a journeyman and I don't know about the rest. Which tells you all you need to know.

GOAT MVB Robben
Van Hanegem Gullit
Neeskens
Krol Rijkaard Koeman Suurbier
VDS

He scores the sitter and he's a lock for the all time XI

U mad?

So Robben over Seedorf, Wilkes, Rensenbrink, and Bergakamp?

Not a chance.

We're comparing midfielders and strikers with wingers now?

Play everyone in their traditional positions and he gets in easily with a winning goal in the clutch.

Bergkamp I can understand.

Seedorf played a wide midfield Mezz'ala role similar to Robben in frequently but the difference is too distinct I guess.

Then there is Wilkes and Rensenbrink who both were wingers and superior to Robben as players and for Netherlands.

by TheRedStag Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:44 pm

I kinda understand Gil's point here. If he wins the WC for Holland, they will love him for ever. Dutch people may feel compelled to include him.

Others though who don't have an emotional attachment probably wouldn't.

by RealGunner Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 pm

No one will remember Robben in 5 years. If they do, it will be for losing Netherlands the WC in 2010.

by andiii Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:20 pm

Art Morte wrote:
andiii wrote:
Art Morte wrote:

1) Errr... Wasn't it Inter who wanted to cut down his wages?
2) Irrelevant.
3) If he's under a contract, he has got every right to demand its terms being honored. No contract says "players wages will vary according to what he deserves at different times"...

wow, i'm totally bemused how you found something to argue against in that post

1) he demanded a big wage increase after the treble season (when he was already on a good one), then proceed to play like crap since then. essentially were saying that because of this it's no longer right for him to be the highest paid player in the league. combined with our financial troubles we've said we'd like to keep him but he's injured half the time and plays like trash the other half so we can't justify his wage anymore.
2) irrelevant? the point is as relevant as you can get. he's ruined his image by constantly being a bitch when things don't go his way. he acts like a world class player when he hasn't been for multiple years.
i think if you saw inters games every time he played you'd understand why he's tarnished his image. he was honestly playing like utter trash. and the worst thing is it's not technical or form related. it's his attitude 100%. he's been selfish beyond belief in his play and it's been painful to watch. his ego is gigantic and it's unfounded. i think it would be hard to find a player who taken so many selfish long shots and not scored a single long range goal. i don't tink he's scored a long range goal his entire time here. and taken 500million shots
3) he does have every right to say he wants to stick to his wage ofc. but at the same we have every right to say that he's been terrible and doesn't deserve his huge salary. we can't afford his wages and if we could he doesn't deserve them one bit. it's more than acceptable to ask him to reduce the wage a bit. yes technically he's more than entitled to say no. i admit it doesn't lower his image like the first 2 do. but it sure as hell makes it clear he's in it for the money

1) You don't just demand higher wages. If you're - as a player - in a position to negotiate a new, improved contract, all right then, but the club does not have to sign it if they're happy with the current one. There are no grounds to say "Sneijder doesn't deserve his wages", because it's not about what you deserve. He and Inter agreed upon a contract and that's all there is to it.

2) If his attitude is bad it doesn't do him any favours, but usually you look at the coach to deal with such issues - or drop him altogether like has been done. I don't see any big issue here.

3) Again, Inter fans can be annoyed with his wages - which is a pretty common issue at clubs, like Joe Cole was for us recently, for example - but there are no grounds whatsoever to try to force a player to lower his wages when there's a contract in place.

woah how peculiar, i pretty much disagree with everything you said, especially number 2. not much point in discussing it further as we disagree so much, but just to point out i think you're getting wrapped up in justifying actions. they can be justified sure, some actions are well within his right. but just because they can be justified it doesn't mean they don't negatively effect his reputation. for you they might not but i'm sure for a lot of people they would. some people care about things such as integrity.

i know football is different, but if didn't show up for work 40% of the time and then when you do turn up you perform like crap because you have a bad attitude no one would disagree at all that you don't deserve the wage you're paid. contract or no contract you wouldn't deserve your wage in that situation. football is different, but imo as far as i can tell it's not different enough for this to not negatively effect his rep. tbh it's obvious that it has because he has 1 team who are after him, galatasary, they have offered 7.5-10m. that speaks volumes

by The Franchise Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:43 pm

Gil wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Gone on, make a bigger fool of yourself.

Which of these guys is he better than?

Cruyff, Guillt, Van Hanegem, Rensenbrink, Keizer and if you want go back to far enough, Wilkes.

Cruyff, van Hanegem and Gullit are obviously better than him.

Keizer was a journeyman and I don't know about the rest. Which tells you all you need to know.

GOAT MVB Robben
Van Hanegem Gullit
Neeskens
Krol Rijkaard Koeman Suurbier
VDS

He scores the sitter and he's a lock for the all time XI

U mad?

Saying U mad dont make you correct, it just makes you look silly.

Robben is a one dimensional, injury prone, selfish, grade A choke artist who's injuries probably come because his body is unable to coordinate the movements required to pass.

Kiezer a journey man Laughing

All those players I named were at least as talented as the choke artist and some of them more talented, and on top of that, they won things and didnt choke it away.....did I mention he always chokes?

You have left out so many players better than him its untrue.

by TheRedStag Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:46 pm

No one cares about Roy Keane. Maybe it's just in Ireland?

by The Franchise Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:46 pm

Original position?

What position did Guillt play for Holland?

It was on the right. The boss can play anywhere.

Not to mention, Rosenbrink was clearly better and Keizer, while closer, was better too.

by Gil Thu May 22, 2014 4:52 am

Bump.

Where is that clown Dani to tell me Robben is an overrated clown that is nowhere near Holland's greatest ever?

Two great seasons in a row for Robben including a memorable late winner to win the CL for Bayern. One of the greatest wingers ever.

by Lord Awesome Thu May 22, 2014 5:07 am

Has to be said Robben's pretty good. Still not better than most of the players Dani mentioned but certainly makes the Dutch All Time greats.

And I despise Robben. Laughing

by RedOranje Thu May 22, 2014 5:16 am

To be honest, Dani's more right than he's wrong in this thread.

by Lord Spencer Thu May 22, 2014 9:48 am

I think Gil's point stand.

If Robben did not choke in the WC final, then Dani's biggest complaint against him (his choking) would evaporate.

Also, its not like Guillet, Van Basten, Cruyff, and all those GOAT Dutch players did not choke. FFS, the Netherlands are the perennial chokers now that Spain lifted their choking mantle.

by The Franchise Thu May 22, 2014 11:51 am

Robben is not on the same level as those players. I dont have to say anymore than that.

And can I add. Gil hasnt even seen Giggs in his prime, you really going to take his opinion seriously about players from the 70's? Laughing

by farfan Thu May 22, 2014 11:57 am

figo ruined his legacy ? by going to a better team and winning the CL ?

by Lord Spencer Thu May 22, 2014 1:27 pm

The Franchise wrote:Robben is not on the same level as those players. I dont have to say anymore than that.

And can I add. Gil hasnt even seen Giggs in his prime, you really going to take his opinion seriously about players from the 70's?

Doesn't matter if he is not even as half good as them.

The Netherlands always wanted to win the WC, and whichever half decent talent comes up and fulfills that dream for them would be automatic in the all time 11. It doesn't hurt that Robben also managed to hugely play a part in Bayern's victories.

Also, on the topic of some Dutch players:

Many, including Bergakmp, Seedorf, Davids, and others did not play very well for the national side. In fact, a team having all three did not even qualify in 2002. With a WC to his name, with the winning goal nonetheless, Robben would easily be included.

by The Franchise Thu May 22, 2014 1:31 pm

Maybe your all time 11, not mine.

Team wins, titles and who qualified for what means nothing. How good they are as individuals, does.

by Lord Spencer Thu May 22, 2014 1:38 pm

The Franchise wrote:Maybe your all time 11, not mine.

Team wins, titles and who qualified for what means nothing. How good they are as individuals, does.

I think the all time 11 we are discussing here is what opinions would converge into.

In fact, Gill's point was that scoring that goal would have insured his inclusion in the list. Of course, more knowledgeable people on the Dutch team would go more on the individual talent they rate. But in History, its more so that perception and titles would make an impression when drafting a top 11 list.

Robben the WC winner would look as good as anything other Dutch players have to offer. It doesn't matter what their individual talent is.

Also, you say that you don't care about titles and such when rating, yet you argued big time about Robben choking those titles away.

by jibers Thu May 22, 2014 2:22 pm

Gil get a grip. Robben is not even better than jonny rep ffs. You really are clueless aren't you? Unbelievable. This is also assuming Spain won't have equalised if Flopben scored against them. Robben has been choking for so long now. Sneijder was the player that actually did the most for Holland in that wc.

He isn't even better than Ruud or van Basten. Let's not forget the best defensive mf in modern football Rijkaard. I don't even...

by The Franchise Thu May 22, 2014 3:02 pm

How is throwing away those chances, not an indictment on Robben? Being part of a winning group is a plus, but it doesnt transend you above players who were superior but just were not lucky enough to be part of a winning group.

I dont care about perception and words like this. I care about what I saw and what I saw were various better players for Holland.

Gils named a Holland 11, with Robben...but without Seedorf, without Davids, without RVN, without Bergkamp...with Rijkaard as a centerback (thus not including Stam) just to find room to fit Robben in. Sorry, but no.

All Gil did was go on 4dfoot, copy and paste their line up and removed Wilks (because he has no idea who he is) for Robben, because he once missed a sitter which may or may not have won them a WC.

by cyberman Thu May 22, 2014 5:03 pm

Robben is a nightmare winger whos one of the best of his generation in his position.
Also hes doing it in his third major european league.
Anyway i nominate cristiano ronaldo for this.
He should have a trophey cabinet and moments in big matches thatb rivals messi but hes in a position [ pre sat final] that madrid have not provided him.
Its complete personal accomplishments.. id love to have seen his legacy if he still stayed at utd when we were still a european powerhouse, id say 4 cl finals in a row would be an odds on possibility.
The only validation of ronaldos move is that barca were so great, if barca fell away or messi suffered a major injury..where would ronaldos big moments be held in footballs memory?
who would it be against?

by chad4401 Thu May 22, 2014 7:05 pm

too much garbage/troll bait on GL can't tell what's what any more Sad

by futbol Thu May 22, 2014 7:06 pm

Fabregas not mentioned yet?

by gmos01 Thu May 22, 2014 7:25 pm

RVP. Gave up being a legend at Arsenal for a trophy.

by Gil Thu May 22, 2014 11:38 pm

United fans generally regard Giggs prime as when he was still a teenager. Not even Dani's old enough to remember those years.

As for the ongoing discussions keep in mind the Robben example is purely hypothetical. For me, if he goes on to score the winning goal in the proccess becoming the player to end two Golden generations of failure then he automatically becomes a National hero. The clip of him slotting past Casillas to win Holland the World Cup would be played on loop for decades upon decades.

For the posters questioning my sanity I guess this debate depends on how highly you rate Robben. I personally feel he's the best winger in the World right now if you discount Ronaldo while others may disagree. When you combine his exceptional individual ability with his equally as impressive trophy haul not many Dutch players have been better in my eyes.

His general unlikeability due to his injury-proneness, one-footedness, emotional outbursts, streaks of selfishness, balding & ugliness always count against him in these debates it seems but this is a man that has won a combined 6 League titles, 10 Domestic trophies & 2 European Cups (including playing in 3 CL finals) in his career. Forget about Dutch players for a minute. Not many footballers PERIOD can better that.

Incredible trophy haul
Once in a generation ability
Outstanding decisiveness/effectiveness
Heroic World Cup winning goal

=

Legendary status in my eyes

by Robespierre Thu May 22, 2014 11:45 pm

Netherlands was going to win the World Cup 2010 thanks to just 2 players pratically , Sneijder + Robben .
I agree on who rates highly Arjen Robben anyway, he is a player who divides, there is good number of fans and there's good number of his detractors, but I place myself among the fans

by Robespierre Thu May 22, 2014 11:51 pm

if I understood well the thread, in this regard Wesley Sneijder deserves to be mentioned.
From missed balon d'or 2010 to Turkey League legend, and he is not so old.

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