Surag wrote:Also judging Cannavaro's post WC 2006 years is pretty redundant in my opinion..He was well past his best and even in his second spell at Juventus it was an often fragile backline with him around,Chiellini used to bail us out all the time..

That seems fair.

Wins the Ballon D'or, we get to use that in crowing him great.

3 months later he sucks. Oh no, cant talk about that, he was past his best.

Come on man. This would never fly if it happened today.

Imagine for a second Xavi wins the Ballon D'or, leaves Barca, goes to Man City and complete fails. Are we going to say, oh it doesnt matter, he was past his best?

No, we are going say...he is past his best..but he has failed in another league/system, he isnt the player we thought he was.

I never said he was perfect. But he was far, FAR better than Silva. He also didnt suck straight awayat Madrid. He only actually sucked in his last season at Madrid, the rest he was still good, but again below his.usual par. And i didnt completely blame Pepe, i just said that Pepe made him look even worse. But he was no better when he came back to Juve than he was in his last year at Madrid. He had a great first 2 or 3 games and then went right back to his last eason at Madrid levels. So why dont wejudge Baggio on his Brescia performances? Or Nesta on his early Lazio performances? Like i said, he had a rought time (though not as bad as you make it seem), but so what? Thiago Silva was a nobody before he qent to Milan. Does anyone care about that? Nope. Why bring up a few bad years towarda the end of an otherwise excellent career?

He was 33-34 ,slow, used in a highline and playing alongside defenders such as Heinze,Ramos and Pepe back then with no defensive organization whatsoever..I mean 'Typical Lackadaisical Real Madrid defending' became sort of a cliche in those years.Not to mention La Liga games are at a higher tempo.

Tbh even if someone like Samuel of 2009-10 Inter were to play in La Liga ,he would get exposed badly.That doesnt make him a bad defender in that sense though,just saying.

Cannavaro just derailed a good topic.

Surag wrote:He was 33-34 ,slow, used in a highline and playing alongside defenders such as Heinze,Ramos and Pepe back then with no defensive organization whatsoever..I mean 'Typical Lackadaisical Real Madrid defending' became sort of a cliche in those years.Not to mention La Liga games are at a higher tempo.

Tbh even if someone like Samuel of 2009-10 Inter were to play in La Liga ,he would get exposed badly.That doesnt make him a bad defender in that sense though,just saying.

Samuel also got exposed.

But again, I didnt say Canna is bad. I think your so quick to click reply and protect you guy your not reading very well. I said he was bad in Madrid, not bad overall.

I called him great and world class.

The Franchise wrote:Imagine for a second Xavi wins the Ballon D'or, leaves Barca, goes to Man City and complete fails. Are we going to say, oh it doesnt matter, he was past his best?

No, we are going say...he is past his best..but he has failed in another league/system, he isnt the player we thought he was.

Taking your example into account ,yeah you would say Xavi failed in another league/system but at the same time he would be an ageing star in this case as well so one would go ahead and say his best years are probably behind him as he's close to nearing the end of his career.

Same applies to Cannavaro.Post WC 2006 Cannavaro isnt a relevant discussion for me and that Ballon D'or was won by his exploits in that one month tournament and not over the whole league season.And that shouldnt be used as a parameter to compare a current prime Thiago Silva for example.

Cannavaro was way past his prime even back in 06 during the WC. He was like what 33/34 around that time, no?

He just had a Drogba in this past CL type of performance.

Gil wrote:Cannavaro was way past his prime even back in 06 during the WC. He was like what 33/34 around that time, no?

He just had a Drogba in this past CL type of performance.

Age and prime aint connected like that, you should know. Torres meant to be in his prime right now lol

But yeah, Canna might of been past his best at the WC too. I think he probably was. But you cant say, he won the WC, shut down Henry and so on and use that as some positive for him and then ignore what happened to him in La Liga just a few months later.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Romanticizing the past... as usual.

This....

You are all acting like defenders of the past did not make mistakes not to mention the past was a lot more defensive driven game....

Now we have fullbacks acting as wingers, wingers have become inside forwards, Destroyers have become Deep lying playmakers, traditional 10s have become wide midfielders or in some cases False 9s.

There's a lot more ideas to geared towards attacking, teams are built to attack from the back instead of in the old days teams were built to defend from the front.

Is there any defender as good as Nesta still around? No but Nesta was a once in a generation defender just like Messi is one a generation footballer.

The average individual skill of defenders has not really gotten any worse just the tactical plans of teams are more geared towards attacking so defenders as individuals can be exposed.

Even Terry when deployed in such a system does not look half the player he does when he did under Mourinho when they defended deep and the fullbacks hardly got forward.

The game has changed the Neville's and Irwin's of this world have been replaced by Alves and Maicon etc etc.

Players like Adams who were legends in years gone past would not have survived in today's game because the more attacking style teams employ would have left him exposed.

All a massive myth.

+1000
exactly what I was going to say

The Franchise wrote:

Gil wrote:Cannavaro was way past his prime even back in 06 during the WC. He was like what 33/34 around that time, no?

He just had a Drogba in this past CL type of performance.

Age and prime aint connected like that, you should know. Torres meant to be in his prime right now lol

But yeah, Canna might of been past his best at the WC too. I think he probably was. But you cant say, he won the WC, shut down Henry and so on and use that as some positive for him and then ignore what happened to him in La Liga just a few months later.

Why not? Keep in mind, I'll readily admit that I didn't follow closely back then so have no dog in this fight. But it seems to me that it's much more logical to say that the great performance was an outlier - making it that much more impressive, that he COULD perform at that high a level at that age - but that regressing back to the norm of "past his prime and not playing well" for most of that year/subsequent years is to be expected, and therefore not something to be judged harshly for.

For instance, when Carragher has a game for Liverpool like he did this past weekend, I would point to that and say "he's an exceptional defender, he was even able to summon up a great performance at this age, seeing something close to his vintage form despite his being old is really impressive." But next week, when he returns to sucking and getting skinned by 4th division strikers, I'm not going to talk about that as part of his legacy; the man's past it, this isn't how I judge him.

You don't necessarily need to throw out a whole set of years (aka "everything post 2006" or "everything with Real Madrid). You can accept that most of past his prime doesn't matter in his legacy, but the few impressive moments should serve as a star on top of the Christmas tree of his career.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Romanticizing the past... as usual.

This....

You are all acting like defenders of the past did not make mistakes not to mention the past was a lot more defensive driven game....

Now we have fullbacks acting as wingers, wingers have become inside forwards, Destroyers have become Deep lying playmakers, traditional 10s have become wide midfielders or in some cases False 9s.

There's a lot more ideas to geared towards attacking, teams are built to attack from the back instead of in the old days teams were built to defend from the front.

Is there any defender as good as Nesta still around? No but Nesta was a once in a generation defender just like Messi is one a generation footballer.

The average individual skill of defenders has not really gotten any worse just the tactical plans of teams are more geared towards attacking so defenders as individuals can be exposed.

Even Terry when deployed in such a system does not look half the player he does when he did under Mourinho when they defended deep and the fullbacks hardly got forward.

The game has changed the Neville's and Irwin's of this world have been replaced by Alves and Maicon etc etc.

Players like Adams who were legends in years gone past would not have survived in today's game because the more attacking style teams employ would have left him exposed.

All a massive myth.

My god Mole, I have the weirdest boner reading that sexy post

I actually liked Canavaro.

I remember this one game where we were obviously outmatched and he came out on a radio show and said that he'd fight to the very end. That match we got completely dominated but he and Iker just stood up to the onslaught. We only lost that game because Eto scored a lucky tap in off a corner, but I still remember him diving into a post trying to save a Messi chip (he didn't succeed).

That day I gained an indescribable amount of respect for him. It's obvious why success might have followed him throughout his career.

Because positional deficiencies, physical deficiencies, even just not being the best skill wise, he was a winner....as reductionist as that might sound.

I decided to watch this Nesta guy on you tubes. (I had to sift through the ones that emphasized his looks!) I was amazed, he handled the ball like a skilled forward and I never saw a you tube where he just kicked the ball away. Of course, they would not show that on a you tube showing his skills.

But still. Then I read that he was the end of the line for a style of Italian central defenders that were big guys but with exceptional ball skills.

Le Samourai wrote:I actually liked Canavaro.

I remember this one game where we were obviously outmatched and he came out on a radio show and said that he'd fight to the very end. That match we got completely dominated but he and Iker just stood up to the onslaught. We only lost that game because Eto scored a lucky tap in off a corner, but I still remember him diving into a post trying to save a Messi chip (he didn't succeed).

That day I gained an indescribable amount of respect for him. It's obvious why success might have followed him throughout his career.

Because positional deficiencies, physical deficiencies, even just not being the best skill wise, he was a winner....as reductionist as that might sound.

That was Pep's first Clasico, and it ended at a pretty deserved 2-0 win for Barca.

stevieg8 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Gil wrote:Cannavaro was way past his prime even back in 06 during the WC. He was like what 33/34 around that time, no?

He just had a Drogba in this past CL type of performance.

Age and prime aint connected like that, you should know. Torres meant to be in his prime right now lol

But yeah, Canna might of been past his best at the WC too. I think he probably was. But you cant say, he won the WC, shut down Henry and so on and use that as some positive for him and then ignore what happened to him in La Liga just a few months later.

Why not? Keep in mind, I'll readily admit that I didn't follow closely back then so have no dog in this fight. But it seems to me that it's much more logical to say that the great performance was an outlier - making it that much more impressive, that he COULD perform at that high a level at that age - but that regressing back to the norm of "past his prime and not playing well" for most of that year/subsequent years is to be expected, and therefore not something to be judged harshly for.

For instance, when Carragher has a game for Liverpool like he did this past weekend, I would point to that and say "he's an exceptional defender, he was even able to summon up a great performance at this age, seeing something close to his vintage form despite his being old is really impressive." But next week, when he returns to sucking and getting skinned by 4th division strikers, I'm not going to talk about that as part of his legacy; the man's past it, this isn't how I judge him.

You don't necessarily need to throw out a whole set of years (aka "everything post 2006" or "everything with Real Madrid). You can accept that most of past his prime doesn't matter in his legacy, but the few impressive moments should serve as a star on top of the Christmas tree of his career.

Why not what?

Age and prime not connected like that? Or why cant we ignore what Canna did WC and then few months later at Madrid?

If its the latter, then because he was great a Juventus, great in the WC and then poor for Madrid.

If he was poor for Juve and poor for Madrid, but wound the clock back for the WC then maybe it makes sense. But that wasnt the case.

juventus101 wrote:Cannavaro shits all over Thiago Silva. Cannavaro shut down Henry and Trezeguet in their prines, not to mention Zinedine Zidane. He had Materazzi next to him and only allowed two goals to breach his defense in 06, and one was a PK and one was an own goal. He was in his mid 30's in Madrid and having to constantly cover up for Pepe, who was absolutely terrible at that point, so he didnt look at his best there. The man won the Ballon Dor for a reason. He puts Silva to shame.

This is such a load of bull. . Cannavaro joined madrid the same year he was the best player in the world, used to get owned weekly, Fyi pepe wasnt even signed that season .Pepe came in 07 , and actually 07-08 was one of pepe's best seasons, and he outshone cannavaro, it was the other way round.

barca 2011 wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:I actually liked Canavaro.

I remember this one game where we were obviously outmatched and he came out on a radio show and said that he'd fight to the very end. That match we got completely dominated but he and Iker just stood up to the onslaught. We only lost that game because Eto scored a lucky tap in off a corner, but I still remember him diving into a post trying to save a Messi chip (he didn't succeed).

That day I gained an indescribable amount of respect for him. It's obvious why success might have followed him throughout his career.

Because positional deficiencies, physical deficiencies, even just not being the best skill wise, he was a winner....as reductionist as that might sound.

That was Pep's first Clasico, and it ended at a pretty deserved 2-0 win for Barca.

we played pretty well, considering we were playing with the likes of salgado and palanca.

Thats one year without Pepe. My mistake. And Pepe was awful from 07-09. So much so that it made Cannavaro look worse. But Cannavaro actually did reasonably well in his first year and a half or so at Madrid, only his last year was really bad. His first few years were still below his WC levels and Juve levels, but he was still good. It was obviius that basically, the WC was hi last hurrah. I dont see why we should judge him.based on.a few bad years among a entire career or excellent ones. Thats not how this works. When Rafa Marquez retires, is anyone gonna judge him on his Red Bulls performances? Hell no. Theyll judge him on his Barca performances, even thoughhe went straight from.Barca to Red Bulls just like Canna from the WC to Madrid. Same goes for Henry.

Point proven.

going from barca to nyrb is not at all comparable to going from juve to madrid

get a grip

Its not the teams that matter. Its the point in their careers that matter. Cannavaro, like Henry and Marquez, was pretty much finished by the time he went to Madrid. Had two decent years at Madrid, but still wayyyyyy below his usual levels, and then an awful third year and awful year coming back to Juve. Marquez and Henry had one or good season at NY, and then, Henry has been wellllllll below.even his first season at NY levels which were already way lower than his Barca/Arsenal levels, and Marquez has been absolutely awful

The Franchise wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Gil wrote:Cannavaro was way past his prime even back in 06 during the WC. He was like what 33/34 around that time, no?

He just had a Drogba in this past CL type of performance.

Age and prime aint connected like that, you should know. Torres meant to be in his prime right now lol

But yeah, Canna might of been past his best at the WC too. I think he probably was. But you cant say, he won the WC, shut down Henry and so on and use that as some positive for him and then ignore what happened to him in La Liga just a few months later.

Why not? Keep in mind, I'll readily admit that I didn't follow closely back then so have no dog in this fight. But it seems to me that it's much more logical to say that the great performance was an outlier - making it that much more impressive, that he COULD perform at that high a level at that age - but that regressing back to the norm of "past his prime and not playing well" for most of that year/subsequent years is to be expected, and therefore not something to be judged harshly for.

For instance, when Carragher has a game for Liverpool like he did this past weekend, I would point to that and say "he's an exceptional defender, he was even able to summon up a great performance at this age, seeing something close to his vintage form despite his being old is really impressive." But next week, when he returns to sucking and getting skinned by 4th division strikers, I'm not going to talk about that as part of his legacy; the man's past it, this isn't how I judge him.

You don't necessarily need to throw out a whole set of years (aka "everything post 2006" or "everything with Real Madrid). You can accept that most of past his prime doesn't matter in his legacy, but the few impressive moments should serve as a star on top of the Christmas tree of his career.

Why not what?

Age and prime not connected like that? Or why cant we ignore what Canna did WC and then few months later at Madrid?

If its the latter, then because he was great a Juventus, great in the WC and then poor for Madrid.

If he was poor for Juve and poor for Madrid, but wound the clock back for the WC then maybe it makes sense. But that wasnt the case.

Again, I didn't watch so I don't know, but general consensus among Juve fans in this thread (even before the argument with you started) seems to be that he was poor when he came back too. If you're right, I'd agree with you though. I wasn't referencing a connection between age and prime, simply going off the information provided - which was that he was poor when he came back to Juve.

Juventusfan101 wrote:Its not the teams that matter. Its the point in their careers that matter. Cannavaro, like Henry and Marquez, was pretty much finished by the time he went to Madrid. Had two decent years at Madrid, but still wayyyyyy below his usual levels, and then an awful third year and awful year coming back to Juve. Marquez and Henry had one or good season at NY, and then, Henry has been wellllllll below.even his first season at NY levels which were already way lower than his Barca/Arsenal levels, and Marquez has been absolutely awful

The teams DO matter....they matter very much

Everyone was well aware that for both Henry and Marquez going to NYRB was for the sake of living in New York and collecting some fat checks with relatively light pressure to perform, before retiring...

Moving from Juve to Madrid is literally the exact opposite of that, thats an ambitious move to advance your career.

The correct comparison for Marquez/Henry to NYRB is Cannavaro to Al-Ahli, not Cannavaro to Madrid

However wrote this thread, obviously is not a big fan of Bundesliga. I can Name 7 young CB in Bundesliga, who are on their way to becoming great.

Boateng
Hummels
Howedes
Badstuber
Papadopoulos
Papastathopoulos
Matip
Martinez

Watching Juventini defending Cannavaro on this thread.. priceless

I bet you were there defening him after he abandoned Juventus in Serie B to join Real , right ? Or , when he joined Juventus again and after a couple of good months he sucked to the point fans in the stand shouted traitor and finished e.t.c... Yeah , i am sure you did

You don't have to admit anything , but Franchise was absolutely right about him . Especialy when he mentionted Thiago Silva , Cannavaro was never more talented .
I don't care how much Juventini around here take my word seriously , i give a shit , but Cannavaro was always a bit over rated.

About his Ballon o Dor award , tell you this , both Buffon and Pirlo had a better WC than him and as for the defence argument , it was a collective achievement those two goals conceded , not solely down to Cannavaro .

All the talk back then was how Lippi did it , not how Cannavaro did it .

I bet you anything , the Juventus fans who got defensive about Cannavaro , barely watched him play pre Calciopoli and they hold this image of a god at the back , when this is nowhere near the truth . Truth is , after 2003 , Juventus barely survived February in Europe , for all their superwawesomeness in Serie A... and Cannavaro was part of this 'failure', but i don't see anyone talking about how WC he was then .

When the great defenders of his era were all over in the CL semi finals or finals during his best years , Cannavaro wasn't nowhere near .I don't remember him at Parma and barely watched him at Inter (where he didn't make it either) , but i do remember him in Juventus quite well :

Thiago Silva can certainly reach Cannavaro's level , don't know about Ballon o dor stuff (it's Messi's and Ronaldo's competition after all), but individualy he sure can. There's no need for me to compare him with past greats like Nesta or Stam or Puyol or Ayala or Thyram .. all better players than Cannavaro , who couldn't even keep calm 10 meters outside his penalty area , especialy after 2006.

Abramovich wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Off top, but gotta put this in.

Toffer Harly.

Dwight Howard?

Yao >>>>>>>>>>>

Cannavaro wasn't untouchable, I think people overrated him because of his size as well, but still he was a frigging beast and a half of a defender.

Are yall serious??? Yao and Howard were GARBAGEEEEE!!!! Still are! One has the post game of a 5 year old the other's mid range game is inept. two of the stiffest Centers ever.

Hakeem Olajuwon>>> Plz prove me wrong.

The Messiah wrote:However wrote this thread, obviously is not a big fan of Bundesliga. I can Name 7 young CB in Bundesliga, who are on their way to becoming great.

Boateng
Hummels
Howedes
Badstuber
Papadopoulos
Papastathopoulos
Matip
Martinez

Martinez isnt a CB... Badstuber Hummels...

Germany, we saw what Italy and Sweden did to you.. lets stop.