Re: Who/Where are the Great Defenders of Today?

by Catracho Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:43 pm

The Messiah wrote:However wrote this thread, obviously is not a big fan of Bundesliga. I can Name 7 young CB in Bundesliga, who are on their way to becoming great.

Boateng
Hummels
Howedes
Badstuber
Papadopoulos
Papastathopoulos
Matip
Martinez

Martinez isnt a CB... Badstuber Laughing

Hummels...

Germany, we saw what Italy and Sweden did to you.. lets stop.

by DeviAngel Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:07 pm

Thuram > Cana

@dante Canavaro was sold he didn't abandon he had to big salary and the club informed him that he is going to be sold. This story was told by Gili,Secco and Cana. He didn't want to move. I never considered him traitor.

Zambrota,Zlatan,Thuram all left in a traitor way but Thuram always has a place in my heart

by Lord Hades Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:02 pm

juventus101 wrote:Thats one year without Pepe. My mistake. And Pepe was awful from 07-09. So much so that it made Cannavaro look worse. But Cannavaro actually did reasonably well in his first year and a half or so at Madrid, only his last year was really bad. His first few years were still below his WC levels and Juve levels, but he was still good. It was obviius that basically, the WC was hi last hurrah. I dont see why we should judge him.based on.a few bad years among a entire career or excellent ones. Thats not how this works. When Rafa Marquez retires, is anyone gonna judge him on his Red Bulls performances? Hell no. Theyll judge him on his Barca performances, even thoughhe went straight from.Barca to Red Bulls just like Canna from the WC to Madrid. Same goes for Henry.

Point proven.

i dont think you watched madrid then. pepe was not awful by any *bleep* stretch of the imagination in 08, he was just outstanding that year. 09 he had that scandal and all, but was still pretty reliable

also real madrid isnt a step down like red bulls, so your analogy doesnt work. he will be remembered for his madrid years, and he really wasnt that good .

by baresi Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:31 pm

Well I have a very nice question here for those defending Canna blindly; why can't I use the same argument that you are using, but instead of saying Canna was Sh!t at RM cause he had to cover for this player or that, why can't we consider he was good at his prime because he had one heck of a back line that covered for his mistakes, therefore he looked as solid as you think he is. scratch

by stevieg8 Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:38 pm

The Messiah wrote:However wrote this thread, obviously is not a big fan of Bundesliga. I can Name 7 young CB in Bundesliga, who are on their way to becoming great.

Boateng
Hummels
Howedes
Badstuber
Papadopoulos
Papastathopoulos
Matip
Martinez

Missing the point is fun!

by The Franchise Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:04 pm

stevieg8 wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
stevieg8 wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Gil wrote:Cannavaro was way past his prime even back in 06 during the WC. He was like what 33/34 around that time, no?

He just had a Drogba in this past CL type of performance.

Age and prime aint connected like that, you should know. Torres meant to be in his prime right now lol

But yeah, Canna might of been past his best at the WC too. I think he probably was. But you cant say, he won the WC, shut down Henry and so on and use that as some positive for him and then ignore what happened to him in La Liga just a few months later.

Why not? Keep in mind, I'll readily admit that I didn't follow closely back then so have no dog in this fight. But it seems to me that it's much more logical to say that the great performance was an outlier - making it that much more impressive, that he COULD perform at that high a level at that age - but that regressing back to the norm of "past his prime and not playing well" for most of that year/subsequent years is to be expected, and therefore not something to be judged harshly for.

For instance, when Carragher has a game for Liverpool like he did this past weekend, I would point to that and say "he's an exceptional defender, he was even able to summon up a great performance at this age, seeing something close to his vintage form despite his being old is really impressive." But next week, when he returns to sucking and getting skinned by 4th division strikers, I'm not going to talk about that as part of his legacy; the man's past it, this isn't how I judge him.

You don't necessarily need to throw out a whole set of years (aka "everything post 2006" or "everything with Real Madrid). You can accept that most of past his prime doesn't matter in his legacy, but the few impressive moments should serve as a star on top of the Christmas tree of his career.

Why not what?

Age and prime not connected like that? Or why cant we ignore what Canna did WC and then few months later at Madrid?

If its the latter, then because he was great a Juventus, great in the WC and then poor for Madrid.

If he was poor for Juve and poor for Madrid, but wound the clock back for the WC then maybe it makes sense. But that wasnt the case.

Again, I didn't watch so I don't know, but general consensus among Juve fans in this thread (even before the argument with you started) seems to be that he was poor when he came back too. If you're right, I'd agree with you though. I wasn't referencing a connection between age and prime, simply going off the information provided - which was that he was poor when he came back to Juve.

If im honest, I think Juve fans are saying that because it makes Canna look better. He wasnt Canna of old, he wasnt at his best, he would over 35 and relied on physical attributes so thats normal I think. But his 2nd spell for Juve, while wasnt great, was more impressive then what he gave Madrid.

by The Franchise Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:06 pm

Catracho wrote:
Abramovich wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Off top, but gotta put this in.

Toffer Harly.

Dwight Howard?

Yao >>>>>>>>>>>

Cannavaro wasn't untouchable, I think people overrated him because of his size as well, but still he was a frigging beast and a half of a defender.

Are yall serious??? Yao and Howard were GARBAGEEEEE!!!! Still are! One has the post game of a 5 year old the other's mid range game is inept. two of the stiffest Centers ever.

Hakeem Olajuwon>>> Plz prove me wrong.

Come to the NBA section so we can discuss this properly.

by rwo power Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:14 pm

I guess the good defenders of today were in the Netherlsnds - Germany friendly. A scoreless draw between these two teams... :facepalm:

by barca 2011 Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:23 pm

rwo power wrote:I guess the good defenders of today were in the Netherlsnds - Germany friendly. A scoreless draw between these two teams...

lol, good defenders or sub-par attackers? I watched it and it was a real stalemate. But lots of big names were left out for both sides too.

by Dante Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:28 pm

DeviAngel wrote:Thuram > Cana

@dante Canavaro was sold he didn't abandon he had to big salary and the club informed him that he is going to be sold. This story was told by Gili,Secco and Cana. He didn't want to move. I never considered him traitor.

Zambrota,Zlatan,Thuram all left in a traitor way but Thuram always has a place in my heart

"Even if I know this may be hard to believe, I would have stayed at Juventus had they remained in Serie A – even with a 30-point deduction."

Cannavaro's own words.

And besides, he was getting what , 3-4m max. And I am pretty sure when i say that , Juventus got a shitload of money after the sales of Thyram , Ibrahimovic , Zambrotta and Emerson.

However, i do concede on this , it was a poor choice of words really. He didn't abandon anything , just it was best for him to be sold after what happened , i can understand this. Nowhere near a 'traitor' by any means , despite what the Juventus fanbase was/is thinking.

by rwo power Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:37 pm

barca 2011 wrote:
rwo power wrote:I guess the good defenders of today were in the Netherlands - Germany friendly. A scoreless draw between these two teams...
lol, good defenders or sub-par attackers? I watched it and it was a real stalemate. But lots of big names were left out for both sides too.

Probably both of it. LVG trolled the Hunter and Löw didn't even have a proper striker in the line-up. But then, normally both teams did have some firepower in the roster, but it still turned out 0:0. I think Neuer was happy for once. Very Happy

by DeviAngel Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:21 am

Dante wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:Thuram > Cana

@dante Canavaro was sold he didn't abandon he had to big salary and the club informed him that he is going to be sold. This story was told by Gili,Secco and Cana. He didn't want to move. I never considered him traitor.

Zambrota,Zlatan,Thuram all left in a traitor way but Thuram always has a place in my heart

"Even if I know this may be hard to believe, I would have stayed at Juventus had they remained in Serie A – even with a 30-point deduction."

Cannavaro's own words.

And besides, he was getting what , 3-4m max. And I am pretty sure when i say that , Juventus got a shitload of money after the sales of Thyram , Ibrahimovic , Zambrotta and Emerson.

However, i do concede on this , it was a poor choice of words really. He didn't abandon anything , just it was best for him to be sold after what happened , i can understand this. Nowhere near a 'traitor' by any means , despite what the Juventus fanbase was/is thinking.

What I wanted to say is that he didn't force a transfer he was just simply sold and he accepted that. Juve lost to much money with the relegation from the court like 200 mils and a shit load of contracts for sponsors. But we can never know what happened there are always 2 sides of the stories and the truth is always between them Smile

and I agree with you Smile

by juventus101 Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 am

Cannavaro moved to Real Madrid for one last challenge to finish off his career. He was 33-34 years old when he moved, he was obviously past his prime. He was also past his prime in the WC I would say, but for one tournament brought back.the vintage Cannavaro. Do we judge Roberto Baggio on his Brescia time? Or Thiago Silva on his time before Milan, when he was a nobody? No. We judge players based on when they were at their best. Not when they were still.building up their rep or when they were in their mid 30's and about to retire.

Now stop claiming that i didnt watch Cannavaro. I watched him consistently at Juventus and for Italy. I started watching.football around 92, stopped around 96, and started again around 03. And to claim the defenders Cannavaro played with such as Materazzi and Pepe made hik look better is just ridiculous. Okay, Thuram, Ferrara, etc were awesome, but they hardly made him look better. That whole defensive lineup made each other better. And no, Cannavaro waa not any better when he came.back to Juve than he was at Madrid. As i said.before, he had a good first few games, and then went right back to his Madrid levels.