Re: Who/Where are the Great Defenders of Today?

by norton Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:34 am

The last of the great defenders was Nesta. Mourinho on Football FC just a week or so ago through Charlie Stillitano said that Nesta, if played only once a week, was still the best defender in the world.

by Dnmac4 Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:40 am

Kizu wrote:
Ganso wrote:
Kizu wrote:You are talking about Terry, Rio or Samuel like they are Nesta or Maldini
Idk about Rio and Terry,but Samuel used to be goat in his prime.Dat Inter backline of Maicon-Lucio-Samuel-Zanetti

But neither of them are great... not terry, not rio, not vidic, not samuel, not lucio... maybe Puyol, but still not on the same level as Nesta or Hierro.

LOL Puyol not on the same level as Nesta and he "might" be great. The disrespect people still give to some of these Spanish players is amazing.

Plesae tell me what more Puyol could possibly accomplish in his career?

He captained Barcelona since 2004 and won 18 Major titles with 3 Champions League wins and 5 La Liga titles.

He helped the terrible Victor Valdes of all people win 5 Zamora trophies in a league with Iker Casillas in it and playing an incredible high line.

He helped Spain win the first world Cup ever and The Euros as well being voted on the best 11 team of the 2010 world cup and the best 11 of the 2008 Euro's.

Like I said it's pretty hilarious when people act like Puyol is not better then Nesta and he "may" be great.

I mean try watching a Barca game with him then one with out him and that's really all the proof you need of his greatness.

He should go down as one of the greatest defenders of the 2000's decade and could be argued as the best.

I'm really tired of people sitting on the fence with Puyol, pay the man his due. I don't like Madrid but have always understood and given Casillas his due as the best keeper in the world.

I think people on here and in general don't give him his credit because they hate Barca or they credit Barca's offense. HE has been the heartbeat of that team for the last decade.

by barca 2011 Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:50 am

I did notice (playing FIFA, of course) that every NT I chose today for online play, I'd look for a team with a good attack (Namely Argentina or Holland) and their defenses are nowhere near as highly rated. Either their defense was shite or the defenders are young up and comers but not yet established. In other words, you can find numerous teams in which the attack is where the team's main strength is at whereas a team in which the defense is the strongest point is harder to find. Of course this because as has been said, today's game is much more attack oriented but it also shows that (at least IMO) that defenders are more vulnerable to making mistakes and their mistakes are MUCH costlier than a striker having a bad day.

But are there any teams out there ATM whose defense is stronger that any other part of the team? Aside from a GF/GA GD?

by barca 2011 Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:53 am

Dnmac4 wrote:
Kizu wrote:
Ganso wrote:
Kizu wrote:You are talking about Terry, Rio or Samuel like they are Nesta or Maldini
Idk about Rio and Terry,but Samuel used to be goat in his prime.Dat Inter backline of Maicon-Lucio-Samuel-Zanetti

But neither of them are great... not terry, not rio, not vidic, not samuel, not lucio... maybe Puyol, but still not on the same level as Nesta or Hierro.

LOL Puyol not on the same level as Nesta and he "might" be great. The disrespect people still give to some of these Spanish players is amazing.

Plesae tell me what more Puyol could possibly accomplish in his career?

He captained Barcelona since 2004 and won 18 Major titles with 3 Champions League wins and 5 La Liga titles.

He helped the terrible Victor Valdes of all people win 5 Zamora trophies in a league with Iker Casillas in it and playing an incredible high line.

He helped Spain win the first world Cup ever and The Euros as well being voted on the best 11 team of the 2010 world cup and the best 11 of the 2008 Euro's.

Like I said it's pretty hilarious when people act like Puyol is not better then Nesta and he "may" be great.

I mean try watching a Barca game with him then one with out him and that's really all the proof you need of his greatness.

He should go down as one of the greatest defenders of the 2000's decade and could be argued as the best.

I'm really tired of people sitting on the fence with Puyol, pay the man his due. I don't like Madrid but have always understood and given Casillas his due as the best keeper in the world.

I think people on here and in general don't give him his credit because they hate Barca or they credit Barca's offense. HE has been the heartbeat of that team for the last decade.

Not to mention that he can score in important games every now and again too. His header vs. Portugal in the WC, his header Vs. Madrid in the triplete season.... Tarzan Puyol is a beast through and through. One of the last greats of the backline.

by Toffer Harley Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:55 am

fatman123 wrote:wait, who rates Mancienne that high?

haha yea seriously, what the hell.

other than that: Hummels is boss

by Dnmac4 Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:00 am

barca 2011 wrote:I did notice (playing FIFA, of course) that every NT I chose today for online play, I'd look for a team with a good attack (Namely Argentina or Holland) and their defenses are nowhere near as highly rated. Either their defense was shite or the defenders are young up and comers but not yet established. In other words, you can find numerous teams in which the attack is where the team's main strength is at whereas a team in which the defense is the strongest point is harder to find. Of course this because as has been said, today's game is much more attack oriented but it also shows that (at least IMO) that defenders are more vulnerable to making mistakes and their mistakes are MUCH costlier than a striker having a bad day.

But are there any teams out there ATM whose defense is stronger that any other part of the team? Aside from a GF/GA GD?

I'm not saying Spain's defense is better then there attack but when it gets to tournament time they win an awful lot of games 1-0 or in penalty kicks, so much so that people complain about how boring they are.

I know a lot of it has to do with there possession as it helps there defense but like I said in my Puyol response Spain plays an awfully high line which not everyone can deal with. All you need to do is look at John Terry who has been mentioned on this thread as a great defender when AVB put him in that position he was exposed for pace and looked a shell of himself.

Spain qualifies for these tournaments with offense and wins them with defense and possession.

by DeviAngel Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:51 am

For me the greatest defender and most skilled was Thuram and I am amazed no one even mentioned him here.

I want to mention Barzagli to

by Forza Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:31 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:Romanticizing the past... as usual.

This....

You are all acting like defenders of the past did not make mistakes not to mention the past was a lot more defensive driven game....

Now we have fullbacks acting as wingers, wingers have become inside forwards, Destroyers have become Deep lying playmakers, traditional 10s have become wide midfielders or in some cases False 9s.

There's a lot more ideas to geared towards attacking, teams are built to attack from the back instead of in the old days teams were built to defend from the front.

Is there any defender as good as Nesta still around? No but Nesta was a once in a generation defender just like Messi is one a generation footballer.

The average individual skill of defenders has not really gotten any worse just the tactical plans of teams are more geared towards attacking so defenders as individuals can be exposed.

Even Terry when deployed in such a system does not look half the player he does when he did under Mourinho when they defended deep and the fullbacks hardly got forward.

The game has changed the Neville's and Irwin's of this world have been replaced by Alves and Maicon etc etc.

Players like Adams who were legends in years gone past would not have survived in today's game because the more attacking style teams employ would have left him exposed.

All a massive myth.

Romanticising the past? I don't think so.

Who will we feel nostalgic about in a decades time? Where are the great defenders of today?

I would say that there is currently a distinct lack of elite defenders in football at present.

The sole excuse offered up by Mole is that the game has fundamentally and universally changed so that the emphasis is now on attack rather than defence in all areas of the field. Whilst this statement is correct, notwithstanding the minority of defensively-oriented or balanced teams, does this really make defenders incapable of defending well?

Mole's argument here is that the average skill of individual defenders has not changed and that defenders are purely victims of these tactical changes - that they have been 'exposed' by attacking tactics. In other words, Mole is saying that defenders are just as good as before, but are now unable to demonstrate their true quality due to circumstances beyond their control.

The notion that potential greatness has now been somehow sacrificed for tactics sounds ridiculous to me...

Firstly, the vast majority of great defenders are able to adapt to tactical variation.

Secondly, where are these supposedly great defenders of the present in that minority of defensively-oriented or balanced teams? Why are they not performing to the standards of past greats?

Thirdly, as Mole recognises, his argument implies that virtually all great defenders of the past would've also struggled in this attacking climate. With all due respect to your example of Tony Adams, he is only one of a plethora of fantastic defenders - many of whom I believe would be able to easily fit into the modern game. Alessandro Nesta, widely recognised as the last 'great' in this thread, played in the modern game at the highest level as recently as last season.

Is this generation incapable of producing talent that is capable of playing at an elite level in the modern game due to attacking tactics? No.

This begs the question, if not for attacking tactics worsening performances, then why are there no great defenders in the game today?

To that, I have no definitive answer. Perhaps the most plausible response would be that more talent has been attracted to the attacking positions rather than the defensive ones because of these attacking tactics (and maybe the financial disparities between attackers and defenders). And it is probably the case that some defenders who would have been better in the defensive game of old are not as good in the modern game, but I refuse to believe that tactical changes have single-handedly decimated the quality of all defending for the forseeable future to the extent that not even one present-day great can be named in this thread.

by Lord Hades Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:33 am

who the hell has ever rated mancienne as a great defender?

and yeah prime rio or prime terry used to make quite a few errors as well

by Kick Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:40 am

Mancienne, what a GOAT defender! :bow:

by VivaStPauli Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:20 am

I'm with mole, systems changed, football got too fast, now the box gets overcrowded, back in the day it was usually one or two great attackers running at the defence, either dribbling, or if they were really great, playing a one-two - defenders got to go 1on1, mostly they got to go 2on1.

These days, when teams break, they throw everything they have forward. They'll hit the box with two wing-backs, two wingers, a false 9, a striker, and one of the deep-lying playmakers - hell, if they're Dortmund, or Germany, they'll even throw one of their CBs in there too.

You put one foot wrong as a defender now, and two, three attackers are through. You miss one intercept, and there'll be more than one forward lurking for that through ball.

And since the defender's team does the same, they're often not covered by their fullbacks during counters, one of the two 6s might be missing - there's just a LOT less cover these days.

Sure, there's no Nesta or Beckenbauer around now, but players like Silva, Hummels, Höwedes, Agger etc. are at least as good as prime Terry or Rio.

by Dante Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:23 am

Nice topic , even though it seems to me this has been discussed before around here. anyway..Like i often like to say, the truth as always lies somewhere in the middle.

The romantisicing of the past does exist , to a certain extent . But so the standard of modern defenders has changed , not necessarily drop , compared to the best defenders of the past .

Modern day defenders have less defensive skill compared to the ones from the past , however , many of the best defenders today , do play better football and participate way more in the attacking part of the game than in the past .

An example , Thiago Silva , who's considered one of the best today, if not arguably the best , it wasn't even certain if he would play CB or RB when he arrived in Milan , most people don't know/remember that.

Take a look at some of the modern day Cbs :
the likes of Silva , Hummels , Pique , Pepe , Ramos , Chygrisnkyi(wtf he's name is) , Chiellini , Boateng e.t.c they can all play football , all of them , that wasn't so common 10 or so years ago. Sure , you could say , wtf Dante , Hierro , Nesta , Maldini , Thyram , Blanc all knew how to play football too .

No doubt they did , but it wasn't that necessary as it is for CBs today ; it didn't matter so much back then,it wasn't as important as it is now, however slow or passsive in the build up play they were or clueless with the ball a CB might have been. The most important criteria was understanding of the game and aerial ability , the rest were a plus .

Now this is not the case . It's necessary for CBs to know how to play some football , they can't survive the speed or the pressing of the game otherwise. In cases like Barcelona for instance , it's a necessary trait they shall have . It's just how the game has evolved , none can be so good at defending like Nesta was and have the traits to play football as defensive midfielder as well, it's unthinkable even for the best ever CBs.

Players like Nesta who many mentioned here are once in a lifetime no fking doubt , but him too did mistakes and in huge games sometimes , who remembers Inter's thrashing in the Uefa cup final against Lazio now , when Ronaldo made Nesta look a mess that night , for all his quality and skill ( have the game on VHS tape ,can't watch it anymore Sad

)

Imo , i don't think it's a bad thing that defenders aren't what they used to be. It's just the next turn for this particular position , it has to adapt to modern day football and "currently" that's what has been happening , imo .

by rwo power Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:54 am

Dante wrote:Modern day defenders have less defensive skill compared to the ones from the past , however , many of the best defenders today , do play better football and participate way more in the attacking part of the game than in the past .

The interesting part it that even the GKs nowadays are required to be able to play football. The modern GK is often seen pretty much out of his box and he actually takes part in the build-up play. So the whole system of defense has considerably changed from the keeper on.

by cyberman Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:57 am

didnt Adams play v shearer, Owen, totti, cantona, batistita. Giggs etc? With viera and petit in front of him?
How's that formation Any different than what nesta played in? If anything arsenals Were more attacking

by Swanhends Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:56 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:It's common knowledge that the lack of quality in defense has gone down considerably over the years.

and yet, goals per game has barely moved...so either quality of attackers have gone down as well, or people are making much ado about nothing :coffee:

(i.e full of shit)

by the xcx Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:58 pm

I guess people these days are used to seeing defensive displays rather than attacking. Only in GL.

by Art Morte Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:19 pm

The great defenders are there, they're just having harder time nowadays, for reasons mentioned by Mole and Viva, at least.

Perhaps strength has replaced a little technique, as CBs are usually expected to out-muscle the attackers and win all headers nowadays while the players generally speaking are more bulked up than a few decades ago, but I don't know about this.

by S Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:24 pm

Technique ?It has always been ever present in the game ,maybe from a PL fan point of view its arguable although i agree that there has been much more innovation in regards to the tactics involving the attacking side of the game which has probably made defenders of today often come under the microscope.

by Adit Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:41 pm

Terry was error prone as well... stop overrating the past..

by Gil Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:45 pm

Some great points being made on here but has anyone ever considered the fact that football has become more possession oriented should result in less pressure on the defenses?

The attacks have actually weakened when you actually stop and think about it. Teams aren't playing with 2 up front with 2 attacking wingers behind them anymore. It's the midfield that has strengthened.

Adit wrote:Terry was error prone as well... stop overrating the past..

No he wasn't. Mention a critical mistake he made during his prime from 03-09 before he lost his athleticism.

If you can't come up with anything then hush.

by Abramovich Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:50 pm

Prime jt was flawless.

In before lack of pace bs.

by Adit Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:50 pm

Gil wrote:Some great points being made on here but has anyone ever considered the fact that football has become more possession oriented should result in less pressure on the defenses?

The attacks have actually weakened when you actually stop and think about it. Teams aren't playing with 2 up front with 2 attacking wingers behind them anymore. It's the midfield that has strengthened.

Adit wrote:Terry was error prone as well... stop overrating the past..

No he wasn't. Mention a critical mistake he made during his prime from 03-09 before he lost his athleticism.

If you can't come up with anything then hush.

of top of my head...Terry heading back the ball to Equador striker(or another south american team ) only to be saved by a last ditch tackle from A. Cole in 2006 World cup....world cup lol..

by The Franchise Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:15 pm

Terry in his hey day lacked speed and got done by guys more than enough for it be noticable.

Rio had concentration problems and was criticised for being too lackadaisical.

I love Lucio, but minus his Inter spell and late German spell...he wasnt that great. He made mistakes all over the place.

Samuel sucked ass outside Serie A, why? Because he is only useful in deep line defence.

Vidic was done many times bY speed and 1 v 1 dribbling.

What I am getting at is, all these players had weaknesses.

I get what your saying, the fact Ramos is considered great says it all. But I dont consider him great and I dont think you do either Gil.

I think there some genuinely excellent defenders out there. Thiago Silva is the best for me, I think he stands out. But there are other really good defenders too, some of them have problems, some of them are inconsistent, some of them are still young in defenders terms, some are on their way out.

However, I agree with whats being said, there are more diverse and unique attacks out there than back in the old days. We dont know how many of those great defenders would deal with false 9's and various other schemes. The little evidence there is suggests not very well, its was Vidic and Rio who first felt Messi as a false 9 and they didnt deal with it well at all.

Teams arent playing 2 up front? When did teams last do that? All the great defenders of Serie A and La Liga you could name of the recent past only faced 1 striker....and many of the PL guys prime was played in the same fashion. 2 strikers was a pretty long time ago and only then, it was a PL thing mostly.

Overall, I get what your saying. Not to long ago, you would reel off 5 or 6 names...all great centerbacks, guys who stand out.

Now, there isnt so many. But I dont think its exactly a lack of talent, its a change in many little things.

You watch basketball. Its almost like the "where have the big men gone". There is no Shaq level talent, no Kareem, No Wilt...But they havent exactly gone, they have changed. Here, there is hardly any Nesta, any Maldini, so on and so on, but the centerbacks havent exactly gone, but the attacking variation has changed, tactics have changed.

by Toffer Harley Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:18 pm

The Franchise wrote:
You watch basketball. Its almost like the "where have the big men gone". There is no Shaq level talent, no Kareem, No Wilt...But they havent exactly gone, they have changed. Here, there is hardly any Nesta, any Maldini, so on and so on, but the centerbacks havent exactly gone, but the attacking variation has changed, tactics have changed.

Who/Where are the Great Defenders of Today? - Page 2 Dwight-Howard-Lakers

by Catracho Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:51 pm

Lucio is a GOAT. yall gonna need to stop the hating. Lucio is the best technical and attacking CB to probably ever play.

btw, Why the sleep on Lizarazu or Desailly.. smh

by barca 2011 Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:02 pm

Catracho wrote:Lucio is a GOAT. yall gonna need to stop the hating. Lucio is the best technical and attacking CB to probably ever play.

btw, Why the sleep on Lizarazu or Desailly.. smh

Well the post is asking on where are the great defenders of today. Truth is there arent many but there are a lot of promising youngsters comin up. Thanks to youtube, I think Dede leads the pack. It'll be interesting to see the defending in the WC.

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