Zealous wrote:Clearly is should go to the player who was the most decisive in a trophy winning team. If the voting is fair it will go to Ronaldo.

His goals even carried Portugal to the semi's of the Euro so it's not like he only did it in one competition.

Why should the team he was in have to do with anything? It's about the individual no? Just because Real Madrid was better in La Liga last season, along with much referee assistance, which won them win La Liga, doesn't make CRonaldo a more worthy winner.

His 'goals' didn't carry portugal to the semis. Portugal progressed in spite of CRonaldo flopping most of the games.

There are two decisive tap ins he scored, one against Czech Republic one in Clasico, that doesn't turn the Balon d'Or, even if you'd like it to Z

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Is it really?

It's an individual award for individual exploits or at least it's suppose to be.....

Messi, CR, Pirlo. Falcao, Ibra, Ozil, Van Persie, Xavi, Aguero and Benzema had a better 2012 as an individual.

Hell there's players like Silva who are not even nominated who had a better 2012.

Also BC he wasn't the best player in the final not even close and who gives a shit if the generation is not not awarded.

It's an individual award for the best individual of 2012 and Iniesta should not even be close to winning it.

One of the reasons I joined this esteemed forum is because of posts like these made by the Great Leader. Well thought out but thetruth of the matter is, rarely have the balon d'or votes have not been based on emotion. My heart says Iniesta should win it but my head says messi.

gondov wrote:The Portugal international angered Mallorca fans by cupping his hand to his ear after scoring, and Caparros was not impressed by the former Manchester United star's behaviour.

"Cristiano Ronaldo has it all as a footballer, but he must show a lot more humility and a lot more ambition in other areas," Caparros said to Punto Pelota.

"His statistics are proof of what he can do, but he throws it all away with his behaviour.

"It would not surprise me if he doesn't win the Ballon d'Or. It's not just about footballing qualities, but a sum of a number of values. It's the sum of a lot of things on and off the pitch."

WTF? he was being booed and insulted every time he touched the ball

Don't see why we have to belittle other players accomplishment to support our arguments. Messi wasn't only better than Ronaldo against Lerkusen and Santos and Ronaldo didn't only score tap ins.

Also Mole nearly every player rating after the match had Iniesta as their best player, and like I said he was chosen as the player of the tournament. We know that international football, in spite of only being only 10% of the amount of club games, matter for these sorts of awards a lot. Whether that's fair or not is another argument but that's pretty indisputable. IIRC if Messi wins this year he would be the first South American to do so in a Eurocup year.

Giggity5313 wrote:WTF? he was being booed and insulted every time he touched the ball

Tbh when the fans sing Cristiano is a Barbie he kinda brings it on himself

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Is it really?

It's an individual award for individual exploits or at least it's suppose to be.....

Messi, CR, Pirlo. Falcao, Ibra, Ozil, Van Persie, Xavi, Aguero and Benzema had a better 2012 as an individual.

Hell there's players like Silva who are not even nominated who had a better 2012.

Also BC he wasn't the best player in the final not even close and who gives a shit if the generation is not not awarded.

It's an individual award for the best individual of 2012 and Iniesta should not even be close to winning it.

Granted last season Iniesta was inconsistent but he did have some great performances like at the Euros for example and some people have won the damn thing by just being good in those kind of tournaments like Ronaldo in WC 02 and Zidane in WC 98(even though he wasnt even the player of the tournament nor the best french) ) but how can you mention Xavi as having a better season? I love Xavi, but he was even more inconsisten than Iniesta and when he wasnt, he got injured not to mentiona that he had a Euro to forget until the final where he was MOTM(with Iniesta closesly behind him).

Giggity5313 wrote:

gondov wrote:The Portugal international angered Mallorca fans by cupping his hand to his ear after scoring, and Caparros was not impressed by the former Manchester United star's behaviour.

"Cristiano Ronaldo has it all as a footballer, but he must show a lot more humility and a lot more ambition in other areas," Caparros said to Punto Pelota.

"His statistics are proof of what he can do, but he throws it all away with his behaviour.

"It would not surprise me if he doesn't win the Ballon d'Or. It's not just about footballing qualities, but a sum of a number of values. It's the sum of a lot of things on and off the pitch."

WTF? he was being booed and insulted every time he touched the ball

The reason why he geets booed and insulted every time he touches the ball is the same reason why Busquets got booed against Man utd here in sweden when Scholes almost broke him in two and that is because both of them has acted like a c#nts before.

Pirlo deserves it more than Iniesta for last season only

Cristiano should win it.

@in 2002 Brazil hardly made it to the WC finals, then Ronaldo came, scored 8 goals, 2 in the final and they won. He was just too good in that tournament

@in 98 Zidane was also in the UCL final with Juve.

2012 IS the Messi's year! No one has ever done what he has done since last season [until now]. Who want to give a Ballon d'Or for Iniesta or C.Ronaldo, please give them next year. Else it'd be very ridiculous for the whole football world!

You really just get the same thing every damn time with these threads... Shame.

Just a few random points:

1. Xavi was clear MOM for me in the final, won the official award and was top on most ratings I saw.

2. I never understand when I see people using Euros as a reason why CR deserves it. His Euros were so overrated its not funny. He was garbage (at least nothing special and extremely underwhelming) first 2 games. Boss against the Dutch, who needed to win by a fair margin and couldn't defend to save their lives anyway. Scored a typical winner without doing much else in the quarters then did little against Spain.

Hardly 'carried the team on his back to the semis'... Do people forget the Portuguese wall of a defence and their workhorse midfield? They were the heroes... A collective triumph. He wasn't bad by any means, but not even close to meritting an argument for Ballon D'Or. I was in general disappointed with his Euros.

BarcaKizz wrote:You really just get the same thing every damn time with these threads... Shame.

Just a few random points:

1. Xavi was clear MOM for me in the final, won the official award and was top on most ratings I saw.

2. I never understand when I see people using Euros as a reason why CR deserves it. His Euros were so overrated its not funny. He was garbage (at least nothing special and extremely underwhelming) first 2 games. Boss against the Dutch, who needed to win by a fair margin and couldn't defend to save their lives anyway. Scored a typical winner without doing much else in the quarters then did little against Spain.

Hardly 'carried the team on his back to the semis'... Do people forget the Portuguese wall of a defence and their workhorse midfield? They were the heroes... A collective triumph. He wasn't bad by any means, but not even close to meritting an argument for Ballon D'Or. I was in general disappointed with his Euros.

Hello Barcakizz. But over the course of the whole season Ronaldo was a level above both Xavi and Iniesta. I might not like his attitude but bias cannot block what he achieved.

Clockwork Orange wrote:

BarcaKizz wrote:You really just get the same thing every damn time with these threads... Shame.

Just a few random points:

1. Xavi was clear MOM for me in the final, won the official award and was top on most ratings I saw.

2. I never understand when I see people using Euros as a reason why CR deserves it. His Euros were so overrated its not funny. He was garbage (at least nothing special and extremely underwhelming) first 2 games. Boss against the Dutch, who needed to win by a fair margin and couldn't defend to save their lives anyway. Scored a typical winner without doing much else in the quarters then did little against Spain.

Hardly 'carried the team on his back to the semis'... Do people forget the Portuguese wall of a defence and their workhorse midfield? They were the heroes... A collective triumph. He wasn't bad by any means, but not even close to meritting an argument for Ballon D'Or. I was in general disappointed with his Euros.

Hello Barcakizz. But over the course of the whole season Ronaldo was a level above both Xavi and Iniesta. I might not like his attitude but bias cannot block what he achieved.

Where did I say he wasn't? I completely agree with that assessment.

Simply pointing out that Ronaldo's Euros should not be used as an argument for him winning Ballon D'Or.

Why not? No body gave Portugal a chance when before the tournament started. Portugal reached the finals and Ronaldo was the spear head behind all that. Hell Portugal wouldn't have made the finals without him.

He had a good Euro, which in addition to his efforts with Real Madrid puts him on top imo.

jiopsi wrote:Really?

Yeah, really.

jiopsi wrote:
Messi & Cronaldo La Liga 2011-2012

Goals:

Messi 50 (10 penalty)
Cronaldo 46 (12 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 5.5 shots/ goal
Cronaldo 6.9 shots/ goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 22/50 or 44% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 35/46 or 80% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists: (transfermarkt.co.uk FIFA rules)

Messi 20
Cronaldo 12

Creativity:

Messi 56 throughballs, 92 key passes (resulting in a shot)
Cronaldo 19 throughballs, 60 key passes (resulting in a shot)

Build up play:

Messi 176 dribbless
Cronaldo 73 dribbless

Lost posession:

Messi 96 dispossessed + 61 turnovers = 157 times
Cronaldo 79 dispossessed + 86 turnovers = 165 times

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 24
Cronaldo 15

Champ: Cristiano Ronaldo, who was the main reason Madrid got over the finish line during their rough patch during the end. Also leading his team to 100 points.

Messi numbers all came at home, for the majority of the campaign he was almost invisible away, this is the entire reason Barca didn't win the league. For all your stats you avoided the most important one and the one that destroys your argument. Cristiano was consistent home and away, Messi not so much and in my mind the most consistent player in all stadiums deserves the award more.

jiopsi wrote:Importance of stats:

Here is La Liga 11-12 without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals, and assists:



http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Messi got points for the team in 15 games, 35 overall.
Cronaldo got points for the team in 11 games, 25 overall.

Most useless stats in history. Football is too contextual to use this as a method of who had a better season. Also Barca finishing outside the CL spots? If you believe that than you really are beyond help.

jiopsi wrote:Messi & Cronaldo Champions League 11-12

Goals:

Messi 14 (4 penalty)
Cronaldo 10 (2 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 4.5 shots/goal
Cronaldo 7.4 shots/goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 6/14 or 43% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 4/10 or 40% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists (transfermarkt.co.uk wider rules)

Messi 7
Cronaldo 3

Creativity

Messi 14 throughballs, 32 key passes (resulting a shot)
Cronaldo 3 throughballs, 25 key passes (resulting a shot)

Build Up Play

Messi 44 dribbles
Cronaldo 29 dribbles

Lost Possession

Messi 40 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 59
Cronaldo 20 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 39

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 8
Cronaldo 3

Importance of statistics: (without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals and assists)

1. Milan 14
2. Barcelona 10
3. Plzen 6
4. BATE 2

1. Real Madrid 16
2. Lyon 9
3. Ajax 8
4. Dinamo 0

Messi gave 6 points in 3 group games and would have lost 1st position. Would have lost against Milan.
Cronaldo gave 2 points in 1 group game. Would have lost against ZSKA.

Again this line of thought makes no sense. and half of Messi's CL goals came against Leverkusen. If that isn't stat padding I have no idea what is.

jiopsi wrote:Messi against top opposition 11-12

Real Madrid 3+5@6
Valencia 4+3@4
Malaga 6+0@2
Atletico Madrid 4+1@2
Milan 3+3@4
Leverkusen 6+1@2
Chelsea 0+1@2
Porto 1+1@1
Santos 2+0@1

Overall 29+15@24 against top opposition, 1.83 G+A per game.
Overall 73+35@60 against everyone, 1.80 G+A per game.

Cronaldo against top opposition 11-12

Barcelona 4+0@6
Valencia 1+0@2
Malaga 3+1@4
Atletico Madrid 5+2@2
Lyon 2+1@2
Ajax 1+1@1
Dynamo 0+0@1
ZSKA 3+0@2
Bayern Munich 2+1@2

Overall 21+6@22 against top opposition, 1.23 G+A per game.
Overall 60+15@55 against everyone, 1.36 G+A per game.

Messi was actually better against top opposition, Cronaldo unsurprisingly worse. The same applies pretty much in their careers, Cronaldo is a big game flop.

Santos a big game? You're full of it. Malaga? Porto? Are you kidding me? You're criteria for big game is hilarious.

Messi didn't score against Chelsea or Madrid in the biggest games of the season. He even missed a pen against Chelsea and was the reason behind Drogba's goal in Stamford Bridge. The only reason he scored against Milan was due to a pen.

Players scoring their own penalties 11-12 shows the difference of quality of players and teams in general

jiopsi wrote:

- Higuain and Benzema were actually more effective than Cronaldo and were involved in 1.3x goals more than Cronaldo.
- Messi were carrying Barcelona, and were involved in 1.6x goals more than Xavi and Fabregas together, 1.48x more than Cronaldo.
- As a team Madrid were better, as a player Messi was far, far ahead of others. And Ballon d'Or is a invidual prize, not a team prize.

Again useless stat is useless. Anyone who watched Madrid would tell you that Ronaldo was the main guy behind most victories, especially the games where Madrid had to win. Whether Messi was carrying Barca or not (In my opinion it goes both ways, Barca were carrying Messi's stat padding). It's not Cristiano's fault if his team mates are better than Messi's.

jiopsi wrote:10-11 compared to 11-12

2010-2011
Messi: Supercopa, La Liga, Uefa Champions League, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer, 53+28 1.56 (G+A)/90min

> most definitely

Cronaldo: Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, European Golden Boot, 53+18 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2011-2012
Messi: Supercopa, Uefa Supercup, Fifa Club World Cup, Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer/ Top Assister, European Golden Boot/ Top Assister, bunch of records + WR of scoring in one season club and club + international (73 and 82), 73+36 or 1.86 (G+A)/90min and 82+41

> most definitely

Cronaldo: La Liga, 60+15 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min and 66+17

----------------------------------

Cronaldo actually was just as effective as last season, but Messi was better in last season, and even better this season.

2010-2011
Messi 1.56 (G+A)/90min
Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2011-2012
Messi 1.86 (G+A)/90min
Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2012 Stats



Every which way you look, you see Messi's superioirity.

Only from your point of view

Ronaldo has equal claim to the award. Besides Messi has already been rewarded for scoring the most goals. It's called the golden boot

Balon D'Or SHOULD go to Ronaldo, the best player on the best preforming team in Europe last season.

BarcaKizz wrote:You really just get the same thing every damn time with these threads... Shame.

Just a few random points:

1. Xavi was clear MOM for me in the final, won the official award and was top on most ratings I saw.

2. I never understand when I see people using Euros as a reason why CR deserves it. His Euros were so overrated its not funny. He was garbage (at least nothing special and extremely underwhelming) first 2 games. Boss against the Dutch, who needed to win by a fair margin and couldn't defend to save their lives anyway. Scored a typical winner without doing much else in the quarters then did little against Spain.

Hardly 'carried the team on his back to the semis'... Do people forget the Portuguese wall of a defence and their workhorse midfield? They were the heroes... A collective triumph. He wasn't bad by any means, but not even close to meritting an argument for Ballon D'Or. I was in general disappointed with his Euros.

Xavi was MOTM but he didnt win the official award, Iniesta did..

Zealous wrote:Why not? No body gave Portugal a chance when before the tournament started. Portugal reached the finals and Ronaldo was the spear head behind all that. Hell Portugal wouldn't have made the finals without him.

He had a good Euro, which in addition to his efforts with Real Madrid puts him on top imo.

Ronaldo had 2 good games against Netherland(who managed to lose every game) and against Czech Republic, he had 2 absolutely awful, just awful games against Germany and especially Denmark and then against Spain he was at best average.

Dont forget that Ronaldo could have cost his team the knockout stage with his performance against Denmark, so no way was he the spear head behind Portugal reaching the semi-final.

Pirlo should win it. Was the best player in an undefeated Juventus side. Was the best player of the Euro and the best player of the Italy team that reached the final.

Zealous wrote:

jiopsi wrote:Really?

Yeah, really.

jiopsi wrote:
Messi & Cronaldo La Liga 2011-2012

Goals:

Messi 50 (10 penalty)
Cronaldo 46 (12 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 5.5 shots/ goal
Cronaldo 6.9 shots/ goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 22/50 or 44% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 35/46 or 80% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists: (transfermarkt.co.uk FIFA rules)

Messi 20
Cronaldo 12

Creativity:

Messi 56 throughballs, 92 key passes (resulting in a shot)
Cronaldo 19 throughballs, 60 key passes (resulting in a shot)

Build up play:

Messi 176 dribbless
Cronaldo 73 dribbless

Lost posession:

Messi 96 dispossessed + 61 turnovers = 157 times
Cronaldo 79 dispossessed + 86 turnovers = 165 times

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 24
Cronaldo 15

Champ: Cristiano Ronaldo, who was the main reason Madrid got over the finish line during their rough patch during the end. Also leading his team to 100 points.

Messi numbers all came at home, for the majority of the campaign he was almost invisible away, this is the entire reason Barca didn't win the league. For all your stats you avoided the most important one and the one that destroys your argument. Cristiano was consistent home and away, Messi not so much and in my mind the most consistent player in all stadiums deserves the award more.

That's not what every stat is telling, they are telling how much better Messi was during the whole La Liga. And who cares where the majority of his goals came from, it still was more goals and assists, more important goals and assists, which you can see the table below.

jiopsi wrote:Importance of stats:

Here is La Liga 11-12 without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals, and assists:



http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Messi got points for the team in 15 games, 35 overall.
Cronaldo got points for the team in 11 games, 25 overall.

Most useless stats in history. Football is too contextual to use this as a method of who had a better season. Also Barca finishing outside the CL spots? If you believe that than you really are beyond help.

It tells who had more important goals and assists, and gave more points with them. It's pretty clear that not only Messi scored more and assisted more, but they were more crucial for the team?

jiopsi wrote:Messi & Cronaldo Champions League 11-12

Goals:

Messi 14 (4 penalty)
Cronaldo 10 (2 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 4.5 shots/goal
Cronaldo 7.4 shots/goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 6/14 or 43% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 4/10 or 40% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists (transfermarkt.co.uk wider rules)

Messi 7
Cronaldo 3

Creativity

Messi 14 throughballs, 32 key passes (resulting a shot)
Cronaldo 3 throughballs, 25 key passes (resulting a shot)

Build Up Play

Messi 44 dribbles
Cronaldo 29 dribbles

Lost Possession

Messi 40 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 59
Cronaldo 20 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 39

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 8
Cronaldo 3

Importance of statistics: (without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals and assists)

1. Milan 14
2. Barcelona 10
3. Plzen 6
4. BATE 2

1. Real Madrid 16
2. Lyon 9
3. Ajax 8
4. Dinamo 0

Messi gave 6 points in 3 group games and would have lost 1st position. Would have lost against Milan.
Cronaldo gave 2 points in 1 group game. Would have lost against ZSKA.

Again this line of thought makes no sense. and half of Messi's CL goals came against Leverkusen. If that isn't stat padding I have no idea what is.

So now you are only concentrating goals, a goals against Leverkusen? So what, they helped Barca to win Leverkusen. And even without Leverkusen, Messi still was involved directly to more goals than Cronaldo. lol

jiopsi wrote:Messi against top opposition 11-12

Real Madrid 3+5@6
Valencia 4+3@4
Malaga 6+0@2
Atletico Madrid 4+1@2
Milan 3+3@4
Leverkusen 6+1@2
Chelsea 0+1@2
Porto 1+1@1
Santos 2+0@1

Overall 29+15@24 against top opposition, 1.83 G+A per game.
Overall 73+35@60 against everyone, 1.80 G+A per game.

Cronaldo against top opposition 11-12

Barcelona 4+0@6
Valencia 1+0@2
Malaga 3+1@4
Atletico Madrid 5+2@2
Lyon 2+1@2
Ajax 1+1@1
Dynamo 0+0@1
ZSKA 3+0@2
Bayern Munich 2+1@2

Overall 21+6@22 against top opposition, 1.23 G+A per game.
Overall 60+15@55 against everyone, 1.36 G+A per game.

Messi was actually better against top opposition, Cronaldo unsurprisingly worse. The same applies pretty much in their careers, Cronaldo is a big game flop.

Santos a big game? You're full of it. Malaga? Porto? Are you kidding me? You're criteria for big game is hilarious.

Messi didn't score against Chelsea or Madrid in the biggest games of the season. He even missed a pen against Chelsea and was the reason behind Drogba's goal in Stamford Bridge. The only reason he scored against Milan was due to a pen.

So those games are the only big games in season, the only games which matters? lol And Messi was better actually in last classico, both were involved in one goal, but Messi also gave the best opportunity of the game to score for Xavi.

Players scoring their own penalties 11-12 shows the difference of quality of players and teams in general

jiopsi wrote:

- Higuain and Benzema were actually more effective than Cronaldo and were involved in 1.3x goals more than Cronaldo.
- Messi were carrying Barcelona, and were involved in 1.6x goals more than Xavi and Fabregas together, 1.48x more than Cronaldo.
- As a team Madrid were better, as a player Messi was far, far ahead of others. And Ballon d'Or is a invidual prize, not a team prize.

Again useless stat is useless. Anyone who watched Madrid would tell you that Ronaldo was the main guy behind most victories, especially the games where Madrid had to win. Whether Messi was carrying Barca or not (In my opinion it goes both ways, Barca were carrying Messi's stat padding). It's not Cristiano's fault if his team mates are better than Messi's.

No, but it speaks volumes about Messi's individual dominance, he carried the team like no other has ever done. In the end it wasn't enough, but football is a team sport and you can't win it all by yourself.

jiopsi wrote:10-11 compared to 11-12

2010-2011
Messi: Supercopa, La Liga, Uefa Champions League, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer, 53+28 1.56 (G+A)/90min

> most definitely

Cronaldo: Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, European Golden Boot, 53+18 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2011-2012
Messi: Supercopa, Uefa Supercup, Fifa Club World Cup, Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer/ Top Assister, European Golden Boot/ Top Assister, bunch of records + WR of scoring in one season club and club + international (73 and 82), 73+36 or 1.86 (G+A)/90min and 82+41

> most definitely

Cronaldo: La Liga, 60+15 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min and 66+17

----------------------------------

Cronaldo actually was just as effective as last season, but Messi was better in last season, and even better this season.

2010-2011
Messi 1.56 (G+A)/90min
Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2011-2012
Messi 1.86 (G+A)/90min
Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2012 Stats



Every which way you look, you see Messi's superioirity.

Only from your point of view

Ronaldo has equal claim to the award. Besides Messi has already been rewarded for scoring the most goals. It's called the golden boot

Balon D'Or SHOULD go to Ronaldo, the best player on the best preforming team in Europe last season.

Cronaldo hasn't got equal claim on the award, at all. It's the best individual performance of the year award, not a one of the best players in random league winning team award.



The OPTA-statistics are telling the exact same thing, Messi difference to Cronaldo is bigger than the difference between Cronaldo and the next 21 players. Performance wise.