Jonathan28 wrote:If I was a unknowledgable, this would be the perfect time to say "Iniesta has won a WC, Messi has not" :p To be fair for most people that would be the end of the argument but not for me, WC isn't everything, and even though with Argentina's terrible defense Messi will probably never win one, he'll always be the best player ever for me, after Iniesta of course

Jiopsi you do seem to love Messi alot? Why not come to the Iniesta bandwagon? More room

And I would answer: Messi's three Ballon d'Or's says hello to Iniesta's 1/11 or something share of WC trophy.

I don't love Messi anymore than Iniesta, but I've problem everytime someone talks trash without any rationale reasoning, or concrete evidence.

Jonathan28 wrote:True, doesnt help that our players can't finish, Villa will help when he returns, IF he plays in his correct position. This Villa on LW crap has to stop. He was forced to play there for Spain because of Torres and wasn't near as good as he was for Valencia. I hope Tito takes us back to 4-3-3 with Messi on the right, Villa centre and Pedro left. When we played that back in 08/09 we were immense, then again, Tito is the one who first played Messi in the false nine position in the first place.

I wonder, If mourinho was our manager would he have players in their proper positions which gets the best out of them all and gives them threats from everywhere like at Madrid or would he build the system dedicated to helping Messi score goals like now...

Messi is our architect, the person that some claim we look to, to create chances or dangerous opportunities. How can Messi be on the right flank if he is to create 'something out of nothing'? Yes, Villa has been alright at LW though its a position that he may need to get use to. I can't see Villa moving to CF unless Messi is injuried/not playing...

Wait, so Messi wouldn't trade his 3 Ballon D'Ors to have a 1/11 share in a WC trimuph? o.O

I'm not sure about that....

What reasoning? Football is subjective, just a few years ago people said Messi was no where near as good as Ronaldo, it would have beem ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but its not the case anymore. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make them wrong or yours right, especially when discussing players in the same level of skill, unless its something like Heskey>Messi which isn't an opinion but stupidity. I thought everyone past age 17 knew this?

@Pax

Messi had no trouble creating for teammates when he played there in the 08/09 season, which I think was Xavi's best in terms of assists. Messi moving to the centre seems to have helped Messi more then anyone else to be honest, though Xavi did have his highest goal tally last season I think.

Jonathan28 wrote:Wait, so Messi wouldn't trade his 3 Ballon D'Ors to have a 1/11 share in a WC trimuph? o.O

I'm not sure about that....

3 Ballon d'Or's puts players into the legends of few, WC's puts players in evergrowing pile of hundreds of players.

What reasoning? Football is subjective, just a few years ago people said Messi was no where near as good as Ronaldo, it would have beem ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but its not the case anymore. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make them wrong or yours right, especially when discussing players in the same level of skill, unless its something like Heskey>Messi which isn't an opinion but stupidity. I thought everyone past age 17 knew this?

Because every one has an opinion, or because not everyone have the same opinions, are definitely not valid arguments to prove your case.

Jonathan28 wrote:I don't know, I trust Iniesta to keep the ball more then I do Messi to be honest. Messi's dribbling is good, but when he's shut down like he was in the 1st leg against Chelsea his constant runs which led to no where and shooting into defenders became so annying. I have never been so annoyed with Messi in my life then those 3 important games at the end of the season. Iniesta even on a bad day will still be able to dribble past players whilst keeping the ball on the touchline, how he does that I do not know.

Whilst were on this topic, we have to stop building the team entirely around Messi, the gap in goals scored between Messi and the next person(Cesc) was over 50 goals, thats what did us last season. Play Villa in his best position(CF) where he can get 40 goals to take the pressure off Messi, because we are becoming predictable and very, very one dimensional.

You are retarted really he was best player against chelsea created 4-5 chances. instead of bashing messi just be fair once. everything was great its not messi's fault that team missed 20 chances at first leg now you come here with stupid ideas that building team around messi was wrong. if one of that chances taken or that penalty was scored you would not talk out of you arse

every player has bad form in some times and you bring that moments of messi to prove your point. didnt iniesta has bad games? he had ton of bad games too. messi plays 60 games a season its obvious he will be off form at the end. most of iniesta's great games happened after he came from rest. he is the closest thing to messi when in form but to prove it no need to bash messi

On the who is better in tight spaces question,I believe its down to taste.
Iniesta is the more graceful of the 2.He will just glide out of trouble.Messi will just blow past his opponents.
Some might prefer Iniesta's style,some Messi's.I personally think Messi is better in tight spaces but I understand why others might think Iniesta.

alexjanosik wrote:On the who is better in tight spaces question,I believe its down to taste.
Iniesta is the more graceful of the 2.He will just glide out of trouble.Messi will just blow past his opponents.
Some might prefer Iniesta's style,some Messi's.I personally think Messi is better in tight spaces but I understand why others might think Iniesta.

Now this is rationale reasoning, and definitely acceptable. Style is subjective, but absolute quality, not so much.

I'm not bashing Messi, i'm just trying to make the point that Messi is not the best everything, which for some reason some people can't deal with. He is one of the best players of all time yes but that doesn't mean that everyone has to think he is the best, what would be the point of football if we all agreed on everything? Blatter would be able to get away with anything in that case. When people start saying stuff like 3 Ballon D'Ors are better then winning the WC then you know something is terribly wrong, because you know as well as I do that if it was someone like Ronaldo who won 3 Ballon D'Ors and Messi just the WC, people would be saying the exact opposite.

Why do you even have to call me retarded? Have I somehow insulted your whole family by giving my opinion? It is in my nature to stay objective, especially when it comes to sports like football so I struggle to understand why people take personal offense to someone saying Messi isn't the best at something. Calm down, its just a game.

Jonathan28 wrote:I'm not bashing Messi, i'm just trying to make the point that Messi is not the best everything, which for some reason some people can't deal with.

So you take obviously the best attribute/s of Messi's and then scorn and contempt them without any logical reasoning? That's bashing my friend.

And yes Billion, building the team solely to have Messi score was a terrible idea, because if he didn't score we didn't win. I shouldn't even have to explain this.

Jiopsi no, just because it happens to be his best attribute doesn't mean its the best there ever has been. Garrincha was a better dribbler then Messi, Maradona and Iniesta, that I have no doubt. Only on these forums can saying a player isn't the best at something been seen as bashing. What do you want me to do? Go around saying it is so that I get accepted into the Messi fan club? I'm sorry I cannot do that. Just because he plays for my club doesn't mean I must bash every other person outside of it who shows a bit of competition, its why I refuse to bash Ronaldo. I'm Barcelona till I close my eyes in death not Messi till I close my eyes in death.

Jonathan28 wrote:Jiopsi no, just because it happens to be his best attribute doesn't mean its the best there ever has been. Garrincha was a better dribbler then Messi, Maradona and Iniesta, that I have no doubt.

Says the 20 year old. I actually watched Maradona's goal of the century live from tv, and football from ever since. Messi is better dribbler, he's faster, more consistent, and at least as technical.

Only on these forums can saying a player isn't the best at something been seen as bashing. What do you want me to do? Go around saying it is so that I get accepted into the Messi fan club? I'm sorry I cannot do that. Just because he plays for my club doesn't mean I must bash every other person outside of it who shows a bit of competition, its why I refuse to bash Ronaldo. I'm Barcelona till I close my eyes in death not Messi till I close my eyes in death.

I want you to argue with reason, examples and logic something you believe, not with bashing, insulting and vague opinions.

jiopsi wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:On the who is better in tight spaces question,I believe its down to taste.
Iniesta is the more graceful of the 2.He will just glide out of trouble.Messi will just blow past his opponents.
Some might prefer Iniesta's style,some Messi's.I personally think Messi is better in tight spaces but I understand why others might think Iniesta.

Now this is rationale reasoning, and definitely acceptable. Style is subjective, but absolute quality, not so much.

...what?

So he says that it's down to taste and that he can understand why one might think either way.

I say that in my opinion I think that Iniesta is better.

So his opinion is rational while mine isn't, and you go on a gif crusade trying to prove to me Messi is better?

You're delusional mate. I'm not trying to prove anything to you, I'm stating my opinion and saying that I don't care what you think about it, stop trying to argue with someone who isn't looking for a debate.

I would care about what you say if I thought you were a quality poster, but that's unfortunately not the case.

I'm not even bashing Messi or anything, I'm just stating my opinion that in one particular area I prefer Iniesta and then here comes Jiopsi to save the day because I'm obviously bashing Messi. Get a grip man.

I do have to congratulate you on managing to get me to waste my time "debating" with you. Good job good sir. I'm not responding from now on since it's not worth my time. Peace bro.

CBarca wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:On the who is better in tight spaces question,I believe its down to taste.
Iniesta is the more graceful of the 2.He will just glide out of trouble.Messi will just blow past his opponents.
Some might prefer Iniesta's style,some Messi's.I personally think Messi is better in tight spaces but I understand why others might think Iniesta.

Now this is rationale reasoning, and definitely acceptable. Style is subjective, but absolute quality, not so much.

...what?

So he says that it's down to taste and that he can understand why one might think either way.

I say that in my opinion I think that Iniesta is better.

So his opinion is rational while mine isn't, and you go on a gif crusade trying to prove to me Messi is better?

No, he said because of the style, someone might think something is better. It's also when you draw conclusions from aesthetics, not from absolute quality. Now this is perfectly acceptable, only if you acknowledge this. You didn't.

You talked some nonsense about "tight spaces", which btw you still haven't clarifed what you meant by it.

Friends, what I find sad is why any time we praise Iniesta and/or he has a memorable moment, we need to compare him to Messi and/or Xavi and worse still make it a somewhat ugly debate. Why can't we just appreciate him for who he is? All these three are our players. We are Barcelona fans and this is the Holy Trinity. Each of the three is special in his own right and different from the others in several ways. I am just glad to have lived in the era of this magical trio.

dont make lol with gifs they just show you want you wanted to see

Jonathan28 wrote:I'm not bashing Messi, i'm just trying to make the point that Messi is not the best everything, which for some reason some people can't deal with. He is one of the best players of all time yes but that doesn't mean that everyone has to think he is the best, what would be the point of football if we all agreed on everything? Blatter would be able to get away with anything in that case. When people start saying stuff like 3 Ballon D'Ors are better then winning the WC then you know something is terribly wrong, because you know as well as I do that if it was someone like Ronaldo who won 3 Ballon D'Ors and Messi just the WC, people would be saying the exact opposite.

Why do you even have to call me retarded? Have I somehow insulted your whole family by giving my opinion? It is in my nature to stay objective, especially when it comes to sports like football so I struggle to understand why people take personal offense to someone saying Messi isn't the best at something. Calm down, its just a game.

nobody says messi is best at everything. nobody says you have to believe that messi is better at tight spaces, its you taste. but you just bash messi in last 2 pages and you dont talk about tights spaces you talk about other things like what messi did against chelsea what he won for us etc (you say exactly what cr fanboys say)and etc. stop behaving like saint angel you and cr fanboys have no difference. go to the cr fanboys thread and say saveusCR your points will be appreciated and shared there

billionmillion wrote:dont make lol with gifs they just show you want you wanted to see

Jonathan28 wrote:I'm not bashing Messi, i'm just trying to make the point that Messi is not the best everything, which for some reason some people can't deal with. He is one of the best players of all time yes but that doesn't mean that everyone has to think he is the best, what would be the point of football if we all agreed on everything? Blatter would be able to get away with anything in that case. When people start saying stuff like 3 Ballon D'Ors are better then winning the WC then you know something is terribly wrong, because you know as well as I do that if it was someone like Ronaldo who won 3 Ballon D'Ors and Messi just the WC, people would be saying the exact opposite.

Why do you even have to call me retarded? Have I somehow insulted your whole family by giving my opinion? It is in my nature to stay objective, especially when it comes to sports like football so I struggle to understand why people take personal offense to someone saying Messi isn't the best at something. Calm down, its just a game.

nobody says messi is best at everything. nobody says you have to believe that messi is better at tight spaces, its you taste. but you just bash messi in last 2 pages and you dont talk about tights spaces you talk about other things like what messi did against chelsea what he won for us etc (you say exactly what cr fanboys say)and etc. stop behaving like saint angel you and cr fanboys have no difference. go to the cr fanboys thread and say saveusCR your points will be appreciated and shared there

Words of wisdom

Jonathan28 wrote:And yes Billion, building the team solely to have Messi score was a terrible idea, because if he didn't score we didn't win. I shouldn't even have to explain this.

again you have no knowledge about football maybe thats why i didnt see you before despite you are old user. the team built around messi and won CL last year its already proven fact that it was correct to build team around messi. this season was same, problem was other strikers got injured, half of first team players got injured, there was only messi who didnt injured and played all season. i dont understand what you talk about, you have no logic, no point you just keep talking. instead of saying our players got injured and was off form you say our team built around messi as if it happened first time

you say if messi didnt score nobody could score. is it messi's fault or is it pep's fault or is it fault of injured Villa? it was bad luck that finishers was injured or off form it has nothing to do with tactics. against chelsea team would score 10 goals if they took all their chances. you think with another tactics they would take their chances? or what is your point i dont understand a thing about your discussion

or you want to say barcelona has to win all titles every year if they dont win it means it was wrong tactics

This Jonathan guy is clueless. He says Iniesta is a btter dribbler and better in tight spaces, Jiopsi proves him wrong then he goes that messi sint the best at aeverything as a comeback. Stay off the crack son.

Yeah exactly how he changed his mind and started to bring messi's matches, system of the team and other things instead of discussing dribbling in tight spaces. iniesta is really great at tight spaces and he deserves comparison with messi. but why to change discussion and focus on criticizing messi i didnt get it

Eh, so because I'm noy like everyon else in this thread bar CBarca saying Messi is the best at everything I'm labeled a hater and Ronaldo fanboy? How old are you guys? Jiopsi proved no one wrong with his pointless gifs and made no one change their mind. In my opinion Iniesta is better in tight spaces the Messi. You can either deal with it or keep on wasting your time acting like typical keyboards warriors calling other people retards or saying that they have no football knowledge because they don't agree with you, because I very much doubt you would ever say this same crap to my face.

No, building the team around him was a mistake, because we ended up having to move other players, i.e. Villa. Villa was no where near the player he was at Valencia when played there, and the beginning was last season he was even worse. There was even talk of him getting sold because of bad relations with Messi. Which Ironically was what Ibra was sold for. Two big name strikers who both dislike being moved for one player.

I have never seen a forum so full of people incapable of accepting people don't think the same way they do, and insulting them for it, no wonder so many top posters have left.

No football knowledge, lol, best joke I've ever heard.

Jonathan28 wrote:Eh, so because I'm noy like everyon else in this thread bar CBarca saying Messi is the best at everything I'm labeled a hater and Ronaldo fanboy? How old are you guys? Jiopsi proved no one wrong with his pointless gifs and made no one change their mind. In my opinion Iniesta is better in tight spaces the Messi. You can either deal with it or keep on wasting your time acting like typical keyboards warriors calling other people retards or saying that they have no football knowledge because they don't agree with you, because I very much doubt you would ever say this same crap to my face.

First of all, I noone think Messi is the best at everything. And yes I would say it to your face lol. I'm 6'5 and 17.4 stone. Ask Mole. I would say it to your face pathetic...

Jonathan28 wrote:No, building the team around him was a mistake, because we ended up having to move other players, i.e. Villa. Villa was no where near the player he was at Valencia when played there, and the beginning was last season he was even worse. There was even talk of him getting sold because of bad relations with Messi. Which Ironically was what Ibra was sold for. Two big name strikers who both dislike being moved for one player.

Yes building a team around the guy that was the biggest influence on Barcelona's success (p[layer wise) was a mistake, neither bra or Villa did as well. Villa was missing easy chances last season (10/11), had nothing to do with his position. Messi created chance after chance for him and he flopped. Ibra was lazy and even admitted in his book he did not want to change. Get a grip mate.

Villa and Messi have both dismissed the rumors that they have bad relations. Don't believe everything you read. Ibra was not sold because of bad relations with Messi, in fact Ibra has never said a single bad word about Messi. Ibra thought he was bigger than Barca so Pep decided he had to go. Also, not building the team around the best player of our generation would be a mistake.

What happened to the Barca forum?

This is meaningless and purely playful question, there was never a need to take it too seriously and never a need to drift off into the world of stupidity we are now reading.

We are talking about who is better in tight spaces and why Ibra left......I mean...really..

Either get back on topic of stay out of this thread. Cant believe I have to actually say that, here, of all places.

I played a part in derailing the thread so I apologise, lets get back on topic.

Iniesta seems to be able to have the technique to shoot, as seen against Chelsea and the dutch, but it just doesn't seem to come off for him most times, though I'm sure last season was his best in terms of goals.

If Iniesta wins the Ballon D'Or his shooting skills will have nothing to do with it thats for sure.