Semi final: Portugal vs Spain discussion

Pepe was MOTM.

billy_gr wrote:
Thumbs up: Ramos, Busquets, Iniesta, Pedro – Veloso, Moutinho, Pepe, Alves

Shouldn't Casillas and Coentrao also be included?

I agree with Uefa's choice and even before it was announced my man of the match was also Sergio Ramos. I don't think I have seen him play this well for a very long time though I will admit I don't watch Real Madrid week in week out. He bullied C.Ronaldo to an extent that I never thought he was capable of.

Both Ramos and Xabi bulied CR and it really felt good
You are right. Coentrao and Casillas deserve a mention.
No wonder the game ended 0-0. Such impressive defensive job from both teams

I understand people criticizing Spain but I still want to make a few points in my team's defense, some of which could be controversial.

1. People are saying that the Euro 2008 team of Aragones played very well which is true. However if you recall things more vividly you will see some things were not too dissimilar. In the group stage and the match against Italy Spain were accused to a small extent of this passing to death syndrome. It was said that the midfield and attack did not link well. Then Villa got injured and Fabregas came in who with some great direct play linked things better and that's why that team is fondly remembered for the performance in the semi final and final. There is a little more to this though which I will come to in my next point.

2. The quality of the opposition we faced then and now has light years between them. Then we faced a relative minnow in Russia who played very openly and a very poor German team who overachieved big time. This time we faced an extremely combative Portugal side who refused to concede an inch and will now face either a brilliant Germany or a really tough Italy.

3. That time we were not yet elite. Nobody was prepared to face us. Now teams work overtime to try to figure us out. It's that much more difficult.

4. This passing game may seem boring today but if we were seeing it for the first time I doubt we would feel so bored. Instead we would likely be mesmerized seeing such ability to control and pass the ball. The problem is all this started in 2008 and for four years Barcelona and Spain have more than perfected it. Seeing it so repetitively has started boring people unless there is enough goalmouth action. However even the Spain of 2008 weren't a gung-ho attacking side like Holland in the same tournament for example.

5. I really am not sure if the double defensive pivot should be dropped or not. Yes it limits Xavi and Busquets has grown immensely but seeing the kind of counter-attacking threat and physical play we will be up against I cannot vouchsafe that is the right step to take. Then we had Senna who was immense but more importantly people weren't so ready with their tactics against us.

billy_gr wrote:Both Ramos and Xabi bulied CR and it really felt good
You are right. Coentrao and Casillas deserve a mention.
No wonder the game ended 0-0. Such impressive defensive job from both teams

Exactly. Some people feel bored in a game with no goals but I tell you what I didn't at all get bored last night. Defending as we would agree has gone down in quality during the last few years. Hence seeing such an immense defensive display from both sides in such a crucial game was quite a pleasure. Then seeing how the game dynamics changed when running behind the defense was introduced with Navas and Pedro was very interesting as well.

I dont see how people can blame Spain for a boring match, they had less than 60% of the ball. Lets not pretend they kept the ball all game long and did nothing with it.

Portugal had plenty of the ball and did nothing with it.

At least Spain have the excuse they dont have forwards on and once they did come on they looked alot better.

JD spot on comments... especially points 2 and 3
I just want to add that another thing different than 2008 is the lack of villa.
a pedro - villa - silva frontline would have been really great IMO

Today proved we need a proper striker in Llorente or Torres and also Pedro with his running behind the defense. Pedro needs to start as do Llorente/Torres, prefer Llorente though Im sure with no game time at all this tournament, he probably won't be able to get ahead of Torres, Nedrego (maybe yes after that performance ) and even Fabregas

billy_gr wrote:JD spot on comments... especially points 2 and 3
I just want to add that another thing different than 2008 is the lack of villa.
a pedro - villa - silva frontline would have been really great IMO

Thanks billy. I missed the point you mentioned. None of the present strikers in the squad give complete confidence but if Villa was there he would probably be indispensable and the attack would be built around him.

There are another couple of reasons why I want to commend Spain.

One is that after having won so much they are still able to retain so much hunger and display so much fighting spirit. I didn't think this would be the case and consider it quite praiseworthy. For instance if it was Brazil in Spain's place, they would be partying right from the start of this tournament.

The other is that in spite of having so many exceptional players and having gone through so many ugly incidents in the Barca-Madrid rivalry, the spirit in the squad is so good that it kind of shocks me. Players are so ready to go the extra mile for each other no matter who they are and who their team mate plays for. Holland and France can really learn a lot of lessons from them. For this I would like to give immense credit to all the players and the much maligned Vicente Del Bosque.

I need somewhere to whine about Spain... God damn they are an annoying team. Fuuuu... Their games are just boring and frustrating. They have so many talents we should be orgasming over...

I just feel angry after watching them play... what is this?

it's a messiless Barca more or less

billy_gr wrote:it's a messiless Barca more or less

My opinion of it too

Spain need a David Villa or Messi, both of these players are the difference between direct and passive for both Spain and Barca...

MVP was amazing for barca... this year without Villa and pretty much Pedro it was all about Messi.

Spain doesn't have any of this. It's all possession, some creativity and next to zero finishing ability

Its not even a Messi-less Barca... It's much worse than that... they lack a lot more than Messi trust me...

They weren't even properly dominating possession.

Players are in the wrong places... Oh god, I could rant all day... its such a waste of talent.

Against Portugal, Spain managed a pass completion rate of 75% compared to an average of 91% in Euro 2012 so far
They were also limited to 6.3 passes per minute, their lowest in the tournament so far after 8.1 against Italy, 9.5 v Republic of Ireland, 7.7 v Croatia and 7 against France

From the above stats it was clear Portugal ruffled Spain's feathers, they matched them boot for boot for much of the 120 minutes except in the last 10 minutes of extra time when Spain were clearly on top, largely due to Mereiles being subbed out for Varela which offered Spain more room in the center, affording them time and space to look for Navas and Pedro who looked dangerous.

All in all 0-0 was a fair scoreline, and Spain once again had the luck of penalties.

Messi was offered to play for Spain though he chose Argentina instead... I wonder whether he would make a difference in this Spanish squad...
the three midfielders in Xabi, Xavi and Busquests just seem to make Spain more less comfortable in creating chances and they are bumping into each other. After Euro, Spain need to think of the future and in the World Cup especially... 4-3-3 needs to be the way and a proper forward and striker...

messixaviesta wrote:The other is that in spite of having so many exceptional players and having gone through so many ugly incidents in the Barca-Madrid rivalry, the spirit in the squad is so good that it kind of shocks me. Players are so ready to go the extra mile for each other no matter who they are and who their team mate plays for. Holland and France can really learn a lot of lessons from them. For this I would like to give immense credit to all the players and the much maligned Vicente Del Bosque.

This/\/\/\

VDB is known for being very lenient that he even gave it up to the players to sort out their differences, and they did it without any complaints or backstabs......

this is a stark contrast to for example Holland/France who don't even have rivalries between club teams yet cant even play for each other in an international tournament despite the talented players at their disposal there were so many differences that it might have been the sole reason for their elimination

Kudos to the Spanish players for this very classy act of theirs, especially Pique-Ramos who were said to have differences yet turned in a master class performance against Portugal and saving each other against the other teams that if you were a first time viewer you wouldn't have realized an ounce of difference between them

I'm shocked that you guys are defending Spain when they're playing such painfully boring football. What's even more shocking is that good posters like JD and Franchise are defending them.

I think it's their love for Barca that makes you inherently cheer for Spain and overlook their faults.

Fact is, 60% possession is a lot more possesion than your opponent, and they did absolutely nothing with it. I don't remember a single clear cut chance for Spain all game (granted, I missed some of the extra time, but heard there was only 1 chance anyway)

I'm not saying it's necessarily the players' fault, but Spain are boring and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

I was watching the game with a couple football newbies hoping they'd get into it and find it exciting, but alas, there wasn't a single moment where we got up off our seats. That's how drab the game was, just like the France-Spain game. I've now failed to convert 4 people into football fans because of Spain's boring football.

Just 1 more point: If spain don't win the Euros, you can expect the spanish barca players to be even more hungry next season. This would be beneficial for barca.

If spain do win, then that makes 3 major international tournaments in a row they will have won, plus 2 champions leagues in between for most of the players. This is almost a guarantee that motivation and desire levels will drop.

It's just the amount of midfielders imo. It's like Spain's primary objective is keeping possession over winning games, therefore they play lots of mids. They don't need that many midfielders. Pedro and Torres should be starting. They played much better with Navas and Pedro on, just in case VDB feared they may not be as good with less midfielders.

lmg, I am not trying to make any arguments against what almost all of you are saying. All I am doing is trying to look at this matter from some other perspectives and appreciating other qualities of this team that are being completely ignored. However I think I have already said more than enough.