Mr Nick09 wrote:Mourinho: "Messi had 50 goals that count for nothing"

Let it flow Mou, it was actually your showpony who's contributions counted for nothing.

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:It's a team sport, you can't win by yourself. I think this is testament to that.

You could also say, that the last Clasico was meaningless, because Madrid would have won La Liga even with loss from that.

Furthermore, Xavi should have scored from this:



and it was also Messi who started the first goal by dribbling past two players and sucking thre defenders to himself to make space for others:

Your trying WAY too hard.

Another butthurt reporting in. Oh joy.

jiopsi wrote:

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:It's a team sport, you can't win by yourself. I think this is testament to that.

You could also say, that the last Clasico was meaningless, because Madrid would have won La Liga even with loss from that.

Furthermore, Xavi should have scored from this:



and it was also Messi who started the first goal by dribbling past two players and sucking thre defenders to himself to make space for others:

Your trying WAY too hard.

Another butthurt reporting in. Oh joy.

What would I have to be butthurt about? Your the one trying to prove some unknown point.

Jiopsi you know that chart of yours is rubbish right? i see you put it everywhere you want to push your points, but we all ignore it.

to me, you cant use empirical data to make that kind of charts because you never know how the game would have turned out without the goals of say players. it''s easy to remove them after fact, but that's not the way it works.

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:It's a team sport, you can't win by yourself. I think this is testament to that.

You could also say, that the last Clasico was meaningless, because Madrid would have won La Liga even with loss from that.

Furthermore, Xavi should have scored from this:



and it was also Messi who started the first goal by dribbling past two players and sucking thre defenders to himself to make space for others:

Your trying WAY too hard.

Another butthurt reporting in. Oh joy.

What would I have to be butthurt about? Your the one trying to prove some unknown point.

Uknown point here is reality, as seems to be unknown to most of deluded people. Your style of diminishing without argument is the perfect example of butthurt. :bball:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Jiopsi you know that chart of yours is rubbish right? i see you put it everywhere you want to push your points, but we all ignore it.

to me, you cant empirical data to make that kind of charts because you never know how the game would have turn out without the goals of say players. it''s easy to remove them after fact, but that's not the way it works.

You know that you're wrong, and butthurt right? So you ignore it so hard, that you attack it every possible time?

It's isn't chart what would have happened, rather than chart who's stats were the more important ones. Seem to be too high level logic to some it seems.

jiopsi wrote:]Uknown point here is reality, as seems to be unknown to most of deluded people. Your style of diminishing without argument is the perfect example of butthurt. :bball:

What's there to argue? Your using some table that removes stats to prove a point that is non-exsitent because you have no idea how the game would have played out if the two players in question weren't on the pitch.

Then the gifs....... Just LOL. Your proving yourself wrong as your showing that Messi wasn't decisive or make a big enough impact on the game to get the win. 2 gifs showing what Messi did all game is what your showing not me.

Your trying WAY too hard.

PDF (Penaldo Defense Force) pulling out all the stops I see

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:]Uknown point here is reality, as seems to be unknown to most of deluded people. Your style of diminishing without argument is the perfect example of butthurt. :bball:

What's there to argue? Your using some table that removes stats to prove a point that is non-exsitent because you have no idea how the game would have played out if the two players in question weren't on the pitch.

Then the gifs....... Just LOL. Your proving yourself wrong as your showing that Messi wasn't decisive or make a big enough impact on the game to get the win. 2 gifs showing what Messi did all game is what your showing not me.

Your trying WAY too hard.

I'm not trying to prove anything, that's just the way things happened. You're the ones trying to take a fare points out of argument. Which really shows, what kind of people you are.

Personally, I think the number of game winners would be the most important stat when it comes to goals. I mean does it really matter if you score 4 goals against a side your already up 2 - 1 against?

I guess it would only matter if you were a United fan.

jiopsi wrote:

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:]Uknown point here is reality, as seems to be unknown to most of deluded people. Your style of diminishing without argument is the perfect example of butthurt. :bball:

What's there to argue? Your using some table that removes stats to prove a point that is non-exsitent because you have no idea how the game would have played out if the two players in question weren't on the pitch.

Then the gifs....... Just LOL. Your proving yourself wrong as your showing that Messi wasn't decisive or make a big enough impact on the game to get the win. 2 gifs showing what Messi did all game is what your showing not me.

Your trying WAY too hard.

I'm not trying to prove anything, that's just the way things happened. You're the ones trying to take a fare points out of argument. Which really shows, what kind of people you are.

Yeah you are. Your stat table assumes that the games would play out exactly the same way if CR and Messi weren't there and that's how your basing your arguement that Messi is more decisive.

It's quite simple really, take out Messi and CR and you have 76 different games being played with different moments and scenarios and goal scorers. So the table really means nothing.

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

izzy wrote:

jiopsi wrote:]Uknown point here is reality, as seems to be unknown to most of deluded people. Your style of diminishing without argument is the perfect example of butthurt. :bball:

What's there to argue? Your using some table that removes stats to prove a point that is non-exsitent because you have no idea how the game would have played out if the two players in question weren't on the pitch.

Then the gifs....... Just LOL. Your proving yourself wrong as your showing that Messi wasn't decisive or make a big enough impact on the game to get the win. 2 gifs showing what Messi did all game is what your showing not me.

Your trying WAY too hard.

I'm not trying to prove anything, that's just the way things happened. You're the ones trying to take a fare points out of argument. Which really shows, what kind of people you are.

Yeah you are. Your stat table assumes that the games would play out exactly the same way if CR and Messi weren't there and that's how your basing your arguement that Messi is more decisive.

It's quite simple really, take out Messi and CR and you have 76 different games being played with different moments and scenarios and goal scorers. So the table really means nothing.

No, it shows how important were the individual stats from either player. You understand it now?

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Jiopsi you know that chart of yours is rubbish right? i see you put it everywhere you want to push your points, but we all ignore it.

to me, you cant empirical data to make that kind of charts because you never know how the game would have turn out without the goals of say players. it''s easy to remove them after fact, but that's not the way it works.

You know that you're wrong, and butthurt right? So you ignore it so hard, that you attack it every possible time?

It's isn't chart what would have happened, rather than chart who's stats were the more important ones. Seem to be too high level logic to some it seems.

You made the chart right? so explain to us how you made it, because you seem to suggest that you are too smart for us.

I ignore it because i think it's flawed, simple as that. It's not because i am afraid to debate which player is more important, but you make a thread with a chart you concocted at home and you want us to argue around it as if it's an absolute truth. it doesnt work like that.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Jiopsi you know that chart of yours is rubbish right? i see you put it everywhere you want to push your points, but we all ignore it.

to me, you cant empirical data to make that kind of charts because you never know how the game would have turn out without the goals of say players. it''s easy to remove them after fact, but that's not the way it works.

You know that you're wrong, and butthurt right? So you ignore it so hard, that you attack it every possible time?

It's isn't chart what would have happened, rather than chart who's stats were the more important ones. Seem to be too high level logic to some it seems.

You made the chart right? so explain to us how you made it, because you seem to suggest that you are too smart for us.

I ignore it because i think it's flawed, simple as that.

You can read it all here: http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Your way of ignoring it is rather hilarious.

Motogp69 wrote:Personally, I think the number of game winners would be the most important stat when it comes to goals. I mean does it really matter if you score 4 goals against a side your already up 2 - 1 against?

I guess it would only matter if you were a United fan.

It matters if you make 4 goals and win 4-1. Without those you would loose 3 points.

Messi's stats brought points in 15 games, 35 total.
Compared to 11 games, 25 total of Cronaldo.

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Jiopsi you know that chart of yours is rubbish right? i see you put it everywhere you want to push your points, but we all ignore it.

to me, you cant empirical data to make that kind of charts because you never know how the game would have turn out without the goals of say players. it''s easy to remove them after fact, but that's not the way it works.

You know that you're wrong, and butthurt right? So you ignore it so hard, that you attack it every possible time?

It's isn't chart what would have happened, rather than chart who's stats were the more important ones. Seem to be too high level logic to some it seems.

You made the chart right? so explain to us how you made it, because you seem to suggest that you are too smart for us.

I ignore it because i think it's flawed, simple as that.

You can read it all here: http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Your way of ignoring it is rather hilarious.

THe logic behind the way that chart is made is complete rubbish to me lmao

he takes out the goals and assists of each player during each game, check if the score is still favorable and gives 3 points. It's a rather simplistic way to look at things.

It's my choice to dismiss it because i deem it carries no important whatsoever.

Were Messi goals and assists more important for barcelona than Ronaldo's? absolutely, but dont throw that chart at me because i dislike the way it was conceptualize. It doesnt take statistical analysis to make that point.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Jiopsi you know that chart of yours is rubbish right? i see you put it everywhere you want to push your points, but we all ignore it.

to me, you cant empirical data to make that kind of charts because you never know how the game would have turn out without the goals of say players. it''s easy to remove them after fact, but that's not the way it works.

You know that you're wrong, and butthurt right? So you ignore it so hard, that you attack it every possible time?

It's isn't chart what would have happened, rather than chart who's stats were the more important ones. Seem to be too high level logic to some it seems.

You made the chart right? so explain to us how you made it, because you seem to suggest that you are too smart for us.

I ignore it because i think it's flawed, simple as that.

You can read it all here: http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Your way of ignoring it is rather hilarious.

THe logic behind the way that chart is made is complete rubbish to me lmao

he takes out the goals and assists of each player during each game, check if the score is still favorable and gives 3 points. It's a rather simplistic way to look at things.

It's my choice to dismiss it because i deem it carries no important whatsoever.

Were Messi goals and assists more important for barcelona than Ronaldo's? absolutely, but dont throw that chart at me because i dislike the way it was conceptualize. It doesnt take statistical analysis to make that point.

I don't really get your anger, you agree with it, but you don't approve it? Well you seemed to approve what Mourinho said? Also, sorry to inform you, that world doesn't revolve around only Moudrid fans.

jiopsi wrote:

Motogp69 wrote:Personally, I think the number of game winners would be the most important stat when it comes to goals. I mean does it really matter if you score 4 goals against a side your already up 2 - 1 against?

I guess it would only matter if you were a United fan.

It matters if you make 4 goals and win 4-1. Without those you would loose 3 points.

Messi's stats brought points in 15 games, 35 total.
Compared to 11 games, 25 total of Cronaldo.

So lets say Messi scores 4, and at the end, you take a goal.

if you are up by 4, then towards the end of the game, everybody is relaxing and no one cares about the goal.

do you think the players would have had such a lax attitude if the score was still 0-0? i dont think so

so let's not play games of "if" and remove goals after they have been scored to check what the score is.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

Motogp69 wrote:Personally, I think the number of game winners would be the most important stat when it comes to goals. I mean does it really matter if you score 4 goals against a side your already up 2 - 1 against?

I guess it would only matter if you were a United fan.

It matters if you make 4 goals and win 4-1. Without those you would loose 3 points.

Messi's stats brought points in 15 games, 35 total.
Compared to 11 games, 25 total of Cronaldo.

So lets say Messi scores 4, and at the end, you take a goal.

if you are up by 4, then towards the end of the game, everybody is relaxing and no one cares about the goal.

do you think the players would have had such a lax attitude if the score was still 0-0? i dont think so

so let's not play games of "if" and remove goals after they have been scored to check what the score is.

Again it isn't situation what would have happened, rather than what happened. Those four goals gave you the cushion in the beginning.

jiopsi wrote:I don't really get your anger, you agree with it, but you don't approve it? Well you seemed to approve what Mourinho said? Also, sorry to inform you, that world doesn't revolve around only Moudrid fans.

Dont disperse you thoughts, we are talking about statistics here, not mourinho and madrid fans.

I agree that Messi goals have been more important for barca because he was alone doing it. in terms of volume, it's obvious.

i disagree with the chart used to assert that point however.

Stats are nice and all, but the chart is not telling you about the goals Ronaldo scored against Barcelona and Atletico which pretty much won us the league. that's why stats can be limited, those goals are worth so much that it's impossible to quantify with statistics alone.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:I don't really get your anger, you agree with it, but you don't approve it? Well you seemed to approve what Mourinho said? Also, sorry to inform you, that world doesn't revolve around only Moudrid fans.

Dont disperse you thoughts, we are talking about statistics here, not mourinho and madrid fans.

I agree that Messi goals have been more important for barca because he was alone doing it. in terms of volume, it's obvious.

i disagree with the chart used to assert that point however.

Stats are nice and all, but the chart is not telling you about the goals Ronaldo scored against Barcelona and Atletico which pretty much won us the league. that's why stats can be limited, those goals are worth so much that it's impossible to quantify with statistics alone.

Actually we are talking about all of it. The fans, Mou, the statistics.

Goals against Barcelona and Atletico? Yeah the league is only two games long, those particular. Lets forget that it was Messi who carried Barca to the point, that it still had a little chance to win the title at the end.

It just shows that Barcelona without Messi is a barely a European League material.

Now go on, hype Xavi and Iniesta more...

Iniesta is alienated from the team because he is supposed to be their Messi ( not scoring but dominating the ball and attack running through him).

Clear difference between him for Barca and him for Spain IMO.

He would be the star but with Messi there it isn't needed.

No reason to doubt his quality.

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:I don't really get your anger, you agree with it, but you don't approve it? Well you seemed to approve what Mourinho said? Also, sorry to inform you, that world doesn't revolve around only Moudrid fans.

Dont disperse you thoughts, we are talking about statistics here, not mourinho and madrid fans.

I agree that Messi goals have been more important for barca because he was alone doing it. in terms of volume, it's obvious.

i disagree with the chart used to assert that point however.

Stats are nice and all, but the chart is not telling you about the goals Ronaldo scored against Barcelona and Atletico which pretty much won us the league. that's why stats can be limited, those goals are worth so much that it's impossible to quantify with statistics alone.

Actually we are talking about all of it. The fans, Mou, the statistics.

Goals against Barcelona and Atletico? Yeah the league is only two games long, those particular. Lets forget that it was Messi who carried Barca to the point, that it still had a little chance to win the title at the end.

Those two games were key to us regaining momentum because we were leaking points at ridiculous rate. Going away in an hostile environment against a side that was re energized, Ronaldo scored some massive goals to give us the win. He did the same at the Camp Nou to take the game from barca and to bury the title race.

I am not discounting the importance of the goals of Messi, but you didnt win, and Ronaldo's goals and performances in both games proved to be season defining moments, and those goals are worth a ton. That's what i mean. That's what football analysis is made for imo.

Statistics will never describe the context in which those goals were scored.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:I don't really get your anger, you agree with it, but you don't approve it? Well you seemed to approve what Mourinho said? Also, sorry to inform you, that world doesn't revolve around only Moudrid fans.

Dont disperse you thoughts, we are talking about statistics here, not mourinho and madrid fans.

I agree that Messi goals have been more important for barca because he was alone doing it. in terms of volume, it's obvious.

i disagree with the chart used to assert that point however.

Stats are nice and all, but the chart is not telling you about the goals Ronaldo scored against Barcelona and Atletico which pretty much won us the league. that's why stats can be limited, those goals are worth so much that it's impossible to quantify with statistics alone.

Actually we are talking about all of it. The fans, Mou, the statistics.

Goals against Barcelona and Atletico? Yeah the league is only two games long, those particular. Lets forget that it was Messi who carried Barca to the point, that it still had a little chance to win the title at the end.

Those two games were key to us regaining momentum because we were leaking points at ridiculous rate. Going away in an hostile environment against a side that was re energized, Ronaldo scored some massive goals to give us the win. He did the same at the Camp Nou to take the game from barca and to bury the title race.

I am not discounting the importance of the goals of Messi, but you didnt win, and Ronaldo's goals and performances in both games proved to be season defining moments, and those goals are worth a ton. That's what i mean. That's what football analysis is made for imo.

Statistics will never describe the context in which those goals were scored.

And all the games before Clasico were the games, where Messi was crucial in catching Madrid's lead. Messi also scored both goals against Atletico away and gave crucial 3 point. One which was a brilliantly orchestrated freekick.

You are only scratching the surface with that kind of analysis, the most easiest way of analysing. More detailed ones give you better picture of the whole season, and lets face it, the whole season is what mattered here.

jiopsi wrote:And all the games before Clasico were the games, where Messi was crucial in catching Madrid's lead. Messi also scored both goals against Atletico away and gave crucial 3 point. One which was a brilliantly orchestrated freekick.

You are only scratching the surface whit that kind of analysis. More detailed ones give you better picture of the whole season, and lets face it, the whole season is what mattered here.

like i said, i dont discount what he has done.

I gave you two examples of goals Ronaldo scored that cant be quantified by statistics, to explain to you how flawed that table is to me.

after fact it comes down to each's appreciation to weight that kind of goals, because the context gives those goals a special value.

i can tell you about the 4 goals Messi put past Malaga but what are they worth really? the league was lost, and he was just padding his stats

those guys will score goals, and we acknowledge that. But we are more interested in seeing them scoring those goals in context sensitive situations. if you can get stats that translate those situations then i will welcome the read.