Re: Rank these center defenders.

by sportsczy Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:24 pm

I don't rate Badstuber much at all... the more he plays, the better it is for Madrid and France NT if and when we meet. Slow and mistake-prone. Not to mention a massive ego.

Btw, Vermaelen Laughing

by rwo power Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:36 pm

sportsczy wrote:I don't rate Badstuber much at all... the more he plays, the better it is for Madrid and France NT if and when we meet. Slow and mistake-prone. Not to mention a massive ego.

Well, nonetheless, Bayern only let in 18 goals in 28 BL matches and 7 in 11 CL-matches (including the CL qualification play-offs). Doesn't look so bad with Badstuber as CB, if you ask me.

by sportsczy Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:45 pm

You only have 4 decent teams in Bundi this year. The rest are very meh. Not the best of years for the league...

And in any case, Boateng is great and so is Lahm Alaba is a talent too. You also have a great midfield to help. I think Bayern also has amazing possession... something like 65% on average (not sure about the number).

Badstuber is the beneficiary of what's around him more than his own talents. I've watched about 10 Bayern games and he's always the weak link there. Same goes for Germany NT.

by rwo power Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:01 pm

Uhm. I think you can't have watched too closely, but Lahm was pretty bad this season and only recovered in the most recent matches. And Boateng was pretty much a liability at times, too. Badstuber actually was very solid and had to cover up quite a bit when Lahm decided that playing winger was more fun than defending.

by sportsczy Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:23 pm

Sorry... i disagree. Lahm was not at his WC best. But he was still very good. You just get disappointed knowing he could be better. Boateng does not make mistakes that lead directly to goals too often as he has the recovery speed. Badstuber makes a mistake and it's a goal or a direct chance on goal.

But again, Bayern dominate play so much against most teams that there's very little to defend. Neuer covers up a lot of things too.

by rwo power Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:40 pm

Well, I guess the real test for the Bayern defense will come in the matches against Dortmund and Real (I can't really see Bayern losing with more than two goals in the Allianz Arena against Marseille). I think then we shall see better how much Badstuber is actually worth.

by VivaStPauli Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:58 pm

(Hyypiä)
Silva
Chiellini
Vidic
Hummels
(Badstuber)
Pique
Vermaelen
Pepe
Terry

by leemhuis Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:36 am

Silva
Mexes
Nesta
Lucio
Chiellini
Samuel
Vidic
Puyol

by Toffer Harley Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:07 am

sportsczy wrote:
Badstuber is the beneficiary of what's around him more than his own talents. I've watched about 10 Bayern games and he's always the weak link there. Same goes for Germany NT.

this. thanks.

hummels is still lightyears ahead of him. the only time he did random major erros in heavy succession was this year's CL - and so did the whole of BVB. It's still something different to play this competition with a kindergarden-team where the oldest team member just turned 14 rather than a european powerhouse like Bayern that has several very experienced players and plays there year in, year out.

You can come with your statistics as often as you want, still Badstuber was a catastrophe until this season and he is definitely slower than Hummels as well. Hummels has been around for 3-4 years now and most of the time he does amazing stuff, while BADstuber played like one of the biggest retards for a long time. We can talk again in 2 years and see if he is the worldclass CB some people here suspect him to be.

I don't even wanna talk about this anymore. Saying Failstuber is the best German CB is just pathetic. He will cost us the freakin euro in a few weeks and afterwards I hope he disappears into a dark cave and will never be seen in the national team again.

And yea, he is halfway decent at direct freekicks - outstanding. But nobody needs a CB that does that, Bayer has more than enough other people for that job. The essential task of a CB is to defend. Badstuber is not too great at that and he will never be.

by zarola Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:40 am

Vidic
T. Silva
Chiellini
Pepe
Pique
Vermaelen
Terry
Hummels*

*can't rate : never seen

by Cassius Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:10 am

Vidic (fit)
Chiellini
Barzagli
T.Silva
Pique
Pepe
Vermaelen
Terry

Barley seen hummels play that much so i wont add him.

by S Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:32 am

Thiago Silva
Vidic
Chiellini
Pepe
(Barzagli)
Terry
Pique
Hummels
Vermaelen

And i too dont rate Badstuber that highly.And i agree with Sports ,Badstuber benefits a lot from the Bayern System.If you look through the Bayern team ,he still is the weak link for me.

Just see how Lahm's defending ever since he's been moved to RB.Alaba has been great too.So the fullback support in defense is clearly there and the CB's arent being exposed in this case Badstuber who usually served as cover on the left side whenever Lahm got forward ,but Alaba at LB tracks back well and positions himself well too..

Alaba has even saved Badstuber from his usual errors a no.of times too..Games against Hertha and Hamburg come to mind.

Badstuber is in good vein of form atm but that doesnt say much considering the whole team is playing so well dominating teams with great amount of possession..Apart from his good ball playing skills ,he is a very slow, erratic and clumsy centre back..It can be a nightmare for Bayern if they play a highline with Badstuber against RM.

Maybe his kind of defending would suit in Serie A where many teams play with a deep defensive line as he is very good at positioning and very good at reading the game.

by rwo power Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:31 am

Surag wrote:Just see how Lahm's defending ever since he's been moved to RB.Alaba has been great too.So the fullback support in defense is clearly there and the CB's arent being exposed in this case Badstuber who usually served as cover on the left side whenever Lahm got forward ,but Alaba at LB tracks back well and positions himself well too..

Well, but there you actually admit that Badstuber had to tidy up both his own position and stand in for Lahm being somewhere else - and there still were only few goals against, which in my eyes show that he did an outstanding job. Defensive work is always team work and of course a working team with much possession makes it easier, but on the other hand, Bayern very often had quite a lot of players in the the opponent section, thus leaving their CBs a bit vulnerable in the first place whenever there are counters from the opponents. Whenever an attacker runs at a defender at full speed, he will of course always look slower as he has to accelerate and is thus a bit in a disadvantage, but as much as you want to wave away stats - Badstuber isn't slow at all.

I have the impression that most people who bash Badstuber are still stuck in the past, when he was either forced to play Left Back for which he simply doesn't have the attributes or when he was injured and thus not fully fit. You really should watch him now in the present and realize how much he has developed and improved his tackling and heading, too. Moreover, at Bayern he is the clear leader of the defense and he even gives Lahm a dressing down if necessary.

Surag wrote:Alaba has even saved Badstuber from his usual errors a no.of times too..Games against Hertha and Hamburg come to mind.

And Badstuber has bailed out others, too, even Neuer when he cleared from the line etc. That's why there is not a lone wolf in a defensive line, but several people.

Surag wrote:Badstuber is in good vein of form atm but that doesnt say much considering the whole team is playing so well dominating teams with great amount of possession..Apart from his good ball playing skills ,he is a very slow, erratic and clumsy centre back..It can be a nightmare for Bayern if they play a highline with Badstuber against RM.

On the other hand, in this season Badstuber was usually rock solid even when Bayern didn't play so well (and there were several cases).

BTW, I'm a bit amused that there are only subjective impressions from the "Badstuber bashers" to devalue him - he is allegedly "clumsy", "erratic" etc, while solid facts like numbers are simply waved away. That sounds a bit like there is really no base for rationally talking him down when the facts actually support that he is a huge talent that actually shows his class with a continually rising form curve.

by Milanista Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:13 pm

Why are Vermaelen, pepe and terry even on that list, watch football brah?

by S Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:08 pm

RWO thats some really strong points there even though i dont agree with it.

And no i am not stuck in the past.I watch almost every Bayern game and have noticed the fact that Bayern as a defensive unit have improved ever since Jupp his shuffled with his fullbacks putting Lahm at RB and Alaba at LB ,they look much more solid defensively as opposed to earlier in the season where the full-back area needed support even from midfield since both Rafinha and Lahm were making forward runs and were being constantly caught out of position.In short the centre-backs are receiving adequate defensive security from the flanks and it has nothing to do with Badstuber's heroic defending or his progress.

And Bayern Munich every game dominate possession and when they lose the ball they recover it very quickly courtesy their great midfield.If you notice Bayern arent conceding many clear cut chances off-late.I'm actually waiting Bayern to face Dortmund or Madrid cuz you prove that you're one of the best when you face quality opposition and succeed.And to be really frank OM,Basel,Hoffenheim,Nuremburg etc arent really quality sides.

Now before you call me a Badstuber hater i'm not but i find it really hard to call him the best German CB which he really is not.Not even top 3.Boateng ,Hummels and Hoewedes are all better than him.

Kudos for derailing the topic though when Badtsuber wasnt even mentioned in the OP :coffee:

by rwo power Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:41 pm

Well, it is still about CBs and for me not listing Stubsi is a grave omission. But as you said, I'm looking forward to the matches of Bayern against Dortmund and Real Madrid, too, as these hopefully will become real crackers and then show that my trust in a certain CB is not for nought Very Happy

by Travis_RM_91 Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:01 pm

Purely in terms of defensive abilities

Chiellini
T. Silva
Vidic (great but alot of physical problems now)
Pepe (Hate him or not, truth is he is the babysitter of the Madrid defence)
Terry
Hummels
Pique (When there is actually defending to do, he flops)

Vermaelen (nowhere the same level as the other 7 defenders. Not even close)

by Lex Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:08 pm

Care to explain why?

by REWB Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:49 pm

Travis_RM_91 wrote:Purely in terms of defensive abilities

Chiellini
T. Silva
Vidic (great but alot of physical problems now)
Pepe (Hate him or not, truth is he is the babysitter of the Madrid defence)
Terry
Hummels
Pique (When there is actually defending to do, he flops)

Vermaelen (nowhere the same level as the other 7 defenders. Not even close)

lol i dont understand these people :facepalm:

hardly watch a player yet feel the need to talk shit about his abilities Laughing

. if they are that much better than verm, then my god they must be GODLY defenders. lol you are talking as if those players are of beresi/maldini/beckenbauer level or something, when there not.

by Lord Hades Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:01 pm

dont you do the same for pepe lol ^^

by REWB Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:03 pm

Lord Hades wrote:dont you do the same about pepe lol ^^

? there is a difference, if he had just put verm at the bottom of of the list i wouldnt care, thats just his opinion and he may even be right. but he said all of the 7 defenders are WAYYYYYYYYY BETTER than verm and its not even close...i mean how stupid is that?

arsenal defenders simply have a stigma attached to them no matter how much they perform well, if they make a little mistake or are on a bit of bad run people automatically make them out to be shit. doesn't matter who we get, we might get vertonghen, who is rated highly atm but as soon as he comes to arsenal people will start saying he sucks just because he might make a few mistakes. while the likes those other 7 defenders make mistakes and play badly at times and knowone says shit.

by Arquitecto Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:35 pm

rwo power wrote:Well, it is still about CBs and for me not listing Stubsi is a grave omission. But as you said, I'm looking forward to the matches of Bayern against Dortmund and Real Madrid, too, as these hopefully will become real crackers and then show that my trust in a certain CB is not for nought

1. You haven't provided any numbers to prove Badstubers superiority.

2. Badstuber isn't even the 3rd best CB in Germany.

3. This thread wasn't even about the top CBs as otherwise many others would also be mentioned.

by Lord Hades Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:41 pm

REWB wrote:
Lord Hades wrote:dont you do the same about pepe lol ^^

? there is a difference, if he had just put verm at the bottom of of the list i wouldnt care, thats just his opinion and he may even be right. but he said all of the 7 defenders are WAYYYYYYYYY BETTER than verm and its not even close...i mean how stupid is that?

arsenal defenders simply have a stigma attached to them no matter how much they perform well, if they make a little mistake or are on a bit of bad run people automatically make them out to be shit. doesn't matter who we get, we might get vertonghen, who is rated highly atm but as soon as he comes to arsenal people will start saying he sucks just because he might make a few mistakes. while the likes those other 7 defenders make mistakes and play badly at times and knowone says shit.

relax i am a pl watcher and i do rate vermaelen very highly , just not as good as pepe for me personally ..

by Sushi Master Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:43 pm

Idro's Badstuber hate turned RWO into the Official Badstuber defender Very Happy

But she has a point. I'm not bringing up passing numbers or whatever, but on pure form he's been rock solid lately.

Anyways:

T. Silva
Vidic
Chiellini
Hummels
Vermaelen
Pique
Pepe
Terry

Vermaelen has had a on and off season, but considering his absence he just needs more game time. Piqué has been extremely meh by his standards.

by rwo power Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:49 pm

Arquitecto wrote:1. You haven't provided any numbers to prove Badstubers superiority.

I have posted them often enough in a couple of other threads and thus I thought repeating them *again* would just be tedious and not add anything.

Arquitecto wrote:2. Badstuber isn't even the 3rd best CB in Germany.

That's your opinion. Mine and that from several other people (including sports journalists, coaches etc) is a different one.

Arquitecto wrote:3. This thread wasn't even about the top CBs as otherwise many others would also be mentioned.

Well, what was it about then? "Random defender sorting puzzle"? Hm....

Sushi Master wrote:Idro's Badstuber hate turned RWO into the Official Badstuber defender

Indeed

I hate people being wrongly vilified.

by Arquitecto Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:20 pm

rwo power wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:1. You haven't provided any numbers to prove Badstubers superiority.
I have posted them often enough in a couple of other threads and thus I thought repeating them *again* would just be tedious and not add anything.

Arquitecto wrote:2. Badstuber isn't even the 3rd best CB in Germany.
That's your opinion. Mine and that from several other people (including sports journalists, coaches etc) is a different one.

Arquitecto wrote:3. This thread wasn't even about the top CBs as otherwise many others would also be mentioned.
Well, what was it about then? "Random defender sorting puzzle"? Hm....

Sushi Master wrote:Idro's Badstuber hate turned RWO into the Official Badstuber defender
Indeed I hate people being wrongly vilified.

1. The numbers your provided are passing stats and arbitrary tackling numbers in percentages. If you noticed, that was already counter argued and didn't convince anyone.

2. The opinions of Loew, Rangnick don't really have much ground to convince me as I already named managers who are actually accomplished and their blunderous decisions in player selection. (not that Badtstuber is a blunder).

3. Did he name it as a top cb selection? Not really. As otherwise, Nesta, Mascherano, barzhagli, hoewdes, etc etc all would be included in this list. As otherwise their be arguments on the exclusions.

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