Well, does anyone remember how long it took Kaka before he finally got to play after injury?

Mou is really careful with these things... If you have been out for too long, wait 'til next season..

Ostracised :vagi:

Ostracised? Ostriches?

free_cat wrote:Not really, English and Italian teams have quite good record vs. us in the same span period.

What you don't take into account is that during the time frame you mentioned, the BL teams worked on consolidating their financial foundations, meaning they lived within their means, balanced their books and concentrated on youth development instead of buying big names that might have had an instant impact.

Bayern are always a bit exempt as they has the big luck that Uli Hoeness went into their management in 1979 and he started setting up a sustainable source of money with commercial deals from that time on, making them the profitable (!) rich club they are. Mind you, Bayern worked with profit in each the last 18 years through 4 - they are not just revenue giants.

If Real or Barca would come into the BL, they would immediately lose 80-100 million Euros in TV money as they wouldn't be able to get a special TV deal. Bayern, who are the top earners in the BL, made do with about 83.4 mio Euros from TV, while Barca got 178.1 mio Euro and Real 158.7 mio Euros in 2009/10 (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8822989/Liverpool-TV-revenue-demands-how-European-leagues-compare.html ).

Moreover, the DFL forces the clubs to balance their books under threat of relegation. They also demand sustainable wage structures where a team is only allowed to spend a certain percentage of their income in player wages. I think in a climate like this, Barca and Real would not be able to be as overwhelming as in La Liga.

Several of the PL clubs work on unsustainable wages that are higher than their income, thus getting more and more into debt. Such a model would immediately be forbidden here, thus EPL clubs couldn't retain their strength here either - moreover, the ownership model of the EPL is not allowed here either, so clubs with owners like Abramowich, Glazers, Sheikh Mansour wouldn't get a license in the first place. That clubs that can buy big stars with such skewed money power can hold out better against Barca, is rather easy to fathom. Many Italian teams also get lots of money from rich owners (Berlusconi etc), so they could pay higher wages and thus attract bigger stars, too.

It is only now that the unsustainability of these business constructs start to get questioned, thus the FFP. The Bundesliga practically worked within self set FFP rules during the timeframe you pointed out already. I think you shouldn't consider the BL worse for that, but rather that we used the time to regroup and now come out of this with our own self-produced stars and financially stable clubs that in the upcoming time will compete better and better again.

^^Post of the day.RWO

rwo power wrote:

free_cat wrote:Not really, English and Italian teams have quite good record vs. us in the same span period.

What you don't take into account is that during the time frame you mentioned, the BL teams worked on consolidating their financial foundations, meaning they lived within their means, balanced their books and concentrated on youth development instead of buying big names that might have had an instant impact.

Bayern are always a bit exempt as they has the big luck that Uli Hoeness went into their management in 1979 and he started setting up a sustainable source of money with commercial deals from that time on, making them the profitable (!) rich club they are. Mind you, Bayern worked with profit in each the last 18 years through 4 - they are not just revenue giants.

If Real or Barca would come into the BL, they would immediately lose 80-100 million Euros in TV money as they wouldn't be able to get a special TV deal. Bayern, who are the top earners in the BL, made do with about 83.4 mio Euros from TV, while Barca got 178.1 mio Euro and Real 158.7 mio Euros in 2009/10 (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8822989/Liverpool-TV-revenue-demands-how-European-leagues-compare.html ).

Moreover, the DFL forces the clubs to balance their books under threat of relegation. They also demand sustainable wage structures where a team is only allowed to spend a certain percentage of their income in player wages. I think in a climate like this, Barca and Real would not be able to be as overwhelming as in La Liga.

Several of the PL clubs work on unsustainable wages that are higher than their income, thus getting more and more into debt. Such a model would immediately be forbidden here, thus EPL clubs couldn't retain their strength here either - moreover, the ownership model of the EPL is not allowed here either, so clubs with owners like Abramowich, Glazers, Sheikh Mansour wouldn't get a license in the first place. That clubs that can buy big stars with such skewed money power can hold out better against Barca, is rather easy to fathom. Many Italian teams also get lots of money from rich owners (Berlusconi etc), so they could pay higher wages and thus attract bigger stars, too.

It is only now that the unsustainability of these business constructs start to get questioned, thus the FFP. The Bundesliga practically worked within self set FFP rules during the timeframe you pointed out already. I think you shouldn't consider the BL worse for that, but rather that we used the time to regroup and now come out of this with our own self-produced stars and financially stable clubs that in the upcoming time will compete better and better again.

I completely agree with everything you said. As I mentioned previously, I think the Bundesliga is a wonderfully run league, the second best run league in the world, and they are doing great to ensure financial stability and competitivity IN the league.

However, all you did there is justify why German leagues are not competitive outside Germany, which was my point. I agree with you that those are the reasons, but you should agree with me, that German teams are weak currently. + 1 to you for such a good explanation that in the end agrees with my statements.

My point was that it is okay when you consider the BL less strong for the time you mentioned, but the way you formulate(d) your statements, they appear as universal statements that don't take into account that things are gradually changing. And calling a league or clubs "crap" (as you repeatedly did before) is IMO a bit uncalled for, especially when they are still in development.

I think in the next season, you will see a very different Dortmund in the CL as then the players they nurtured will have matured quite a bit, just as the other clubs get gradually stronger as the youngsters they got are coming more and more into their strengths.

free_cat wrote:

rwo power wrote:

free_cat wrote:Not really, English and Italian teams have quite good record vs. us in the same span period.

What you don't take into account is that during the time frame you mentioned, the BL teams worked on consolidating their financial foundations, meaning they lived within their means, balanced their books and concentrated on youth development instead of buying big names that might have had an instant impact.

Bayern are always a bit exempt as they has the big luck that Uli Hoeness went into their management in 1979 and he started setting up a sustainable source of money with commercial deals from that time on, making them the profitable (!) rich club they are. Mind you, Bayern worked with profit in each the last 18 years through 4 - they are not just revenue giants.

If Real or Barca would come into the BL, they would immediately lose 80-100 million Euros in TV money as they wouldn't be able to get a special TV deal. Bayern, who are the top earners in the BL, made do with about 83.4 mio Euros from TV, while Barca got 178.1 mio Euro and Real 158.7 mio Euros in 2009/10 (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8822989/Liverpool-TV-revenue-demands-how-European-leagues-compare.html ).

Moreover, the DFL forces the clubs to balance their books under threat of relegation. They also demand sustainable wage structures where a team is only allowed to spend a certain percentage of their income in player wages. I think in a climate like this, Barca and Real would not be able to be as overwhelming as in La Liga.

Several of the PL clubs work on unsustainable wages that are higher than their income, thus getting more and more into debt. Such a model would immediately be forbidden here, thus EPL clubs couldn't retain their strength here either - moreover, the ownership model of the EPL is not allowed here either, so clubs with owners like Abramowich, Glazers, Sheikh Mansour wouldn't get a license in the first place. That clubs that can buy big stars with such skewed money power can hold out better against Barca, is rather easy to fathom. Many Italian teams also get lots of money from rich owners (Berlusconi etc), so they could pay higher wages and thus attract bigger stars, too.

It is only now that the unsustainability of these business constructs start to get questioned, thus the FFP. The Bundesliga practically worked within self set FFP rules during the timeframe you pointed out already. I think you shouldn't consider the BL worse for that, but rather that we used the time to regroup and now come out of this with our own self-produced stars and financially stable clubs that in the upcoming time will compete better and better again.

I completely agree with everything you said. As I mentioned previously, I think the Bundesliga is a wonderfully run league, the second best run league in the world, and they are doing great to ensure financial stability and competitivity IN the league.

However, all you did there is justify why German leagues are not competitive outside Germany, which was my point. I agree with you that those are the reasons, but you should agree with me, that German teams are weak currently. + 1 to you for such a good explanation that in the end agrees with my statements.

What she did was explain why that was the case, she didn't use it as a justification but as an explanation. What you also missed was the fact that she made the claim that things would improve as a result maybe even more when FFP hits for all teams.

@RWO

Madrid make around 400 million Euro I think losing 100 million in TV deals would hurt but it wouldn't be that big of a hit. Especially since Madrid have pretty much finished it's large investments on the squad.

@Zealous

Well, according to SwissRamble it looks as if with a loss of 80mio of the TV income, Real would go rather deeply into the red according to this:

"So, there’s no doubt that Real Madrid have the highest revenue of a football club at €442 million, but they also have just about the highest costs at €432 million (including depreciation and amortisation), which is only surpassed by Barcelona €470 million."

Those costs are because we are getting ready to renovate the stadium RWO.

It's a one off.

Well, more power to them then

Well, I'll leave it here. I think I proved my point several times and no argument has been made. As I said, I agree with rwo on the causes of German teams being mediocre. I'm not so sure that in the next years they will become a force in Europe though. We'll see. However, I was talking about the present.

Ps. No way Madrid has 400+ costs because stadium renovations. Stadium renovations are not even accounted as a cost for your information.

herp derp. who cares.

Zealous wrote:herp derp. who cares.

You seem to care, you were fast enough to point out that the costs are that high because of stadium renovations, which is not true because stadium renovations are accounted as an increase of the Assets of the club, not a cost.

I think this must be the most off-topic thread i've read in the GS in a while.Now people are discussing about Real Madrid's finances

free_cat wrote:Well, I'll leave it here. I think I proved my point several times and no argument has been made. As I said, I agree with rwo on the causes of German teams being mediocre. I'm not so sure that in the next years they will become a force in Europe though. We'll see. However, I was talking about the present.

"Mediocre" compared to what, though? Real/Barca? Sure, what club wouldn't be?
Compared to ManU/City? Maybe. Gap is already getting smaller. And in Italy, again, it's basically only Inter and Milan who would smash anything in the Bundesliga to pieces.

You're comparing top dogs to mid-table clubs. Wait a season or two until the current squads have established themselves. Teams like Dortmund, Schalke and maybe even Leverkusen without injuries just aren't pushovers, and losing against Barca doesn't prove the opposite.

Though I certainly won't deny that the chokefest that was Dortmunds CL-run doesn't exactly make us look great internationally.

But still they would probably be able to take on any La Liga side below Barca/Real level, be about equally matched with the Serie A mid-table and would also fit right in the EPLs mid-table region, especially with Spurs form dipping again, Pool still recovering and Chelsea having been parked in the Shady Acres Retirement Community.

Sahin should be starting by now.

VivaStPauli wrote:and would also fit right in the EPLs mid-table region, especially with Spurs form dipping again, Pool still recovering and Chelsea having been parked in the Shady Acres Retirement Community.

According to......

Please refer all questions to The Feline through his unofficial PR department, Doc, thank you.

All jokes aside, think it's about time Mourinho tells us faithful and patient and kind Madridistas what really is wrong with Sahin. Such a talent really shouldn't be wasting like that. Luckily, he is on a 5 year contract so he has 4 more years to do his thing...

VivaStPauli wrote:

free_cat wrote:Well, I'll leave it here. I think I proved my point several times and no argument has been made. As I said, I agree with rwo on the causes of German teams being mediocre. I'm not so sure that in the next years they will become a force in Europe though. We'll see. However, I was talking about the present.

But still they would probably be able to take on any La Liga side below Barca/Real level, be about equally matched with the Serie A mid-table and would also fit right in the EPLs mid-table region, especially with Spurs form dipping again, Pool still recovering and Chelsea having been parked in the Shady Acres Retirement Community.

Yes, yes, they would do all that. Sure they would, buddy. After failing yet another year at the CL, the german teams playing at la Liga/England/Italy would surely torn those league to pieces, showing that Bundesliga is not a mediocrity-fest but the NBA of football.

Mediocre compared not only to Barça, but to all big english, la liga and italian clubs.

free_cat wrote:Mediocre compared not only to Barça, but to all big english, la liga and italian clubs.

Let's see...

2010/11 CL

Bayern - Roma 2:0 (okay, other match in Rome got lost)
Werder - Inter 3:0 (Ummm... Didn't remember they actually won at home)
Schalke - Valencia 3:1 (the other was a draw)
Inter - Bayern 0:1 (and the other match was one of the stupidest losses ever by Bayern, but certainly not due to lack of class)
Inter - Schalke 2:5
Schalke - Inter 2:1

2011/12 CL

Villarreal - Bayern 0:2
Bayern - ManCity 2:0 (return match got lost with a reserve team of 8 bench players)
Leverkusen - Valencia 2:1 (admittedly, the return match got lost)
Bayern - Napoli 3:2 (other match was a draw)
Bayern - Villarreal 3:1
Leverkusen - Chelsea 2:1 (the return match got lost, though)
Leverkusen - Barcelona 1:3 (did anyone actually expect anything else?)

Europe League:
Hannover - Sevilla 2:1 (other match was a draw)

I'll lay the mantle of silence over Werder's and Dortmund's general runs, though. That was pretty abysmal

Otherwise I wouldn't say the German teams did so badly against English, Spanish and Italian teams...

He is not in the squad for tomorrow game vs Rayo. New injury. Did he play any minute in 2012? I think that his last appearance is 1/16 Copa del Rey second leg, which was in 2011 Do you think he will make appearance in March?

He has a gastro lol

Yup he's injured lol

i havent heard of this, is he injured again?

theres nothing in marca,google, or as, and hes actually been called up by turkey...