Bhends the thing is though, jokes aside he's still a better player than Shelvey, Henderson, Allen, Suso (atm), Sahin (atm), Cole, Downing. So no point in benching unless we actually have better players to take his place.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:

peerIess wrote:

rwo power wrote:
This actually puzzles me. When he was still in Dortmund, Sahin openly stated in an interview that he intended to become the best DM in the BL, and the way he phrased this in the interview, he came over with quite some self-confidence.

So you mean he lost this self-confidence since he went away from Dortmund? Admittedly, he was injured quite a bit, but I really can't imagine that his mental state would be affected that much.

Not even that. I don't know Nuri Sahin, but I would assume that he felt at the peak of his mental abilities after his transfer to Real Madrid. But if you spend the majority of time on the bench for a team when you know you are a great player, it takes a toll on your tolerance and self-confidence. But that was at Real Madrid. Now that he is behind such below-average players like Steven Gerrard and especially Jonjo Shelvey, he should be pissed off and mad, as well as reluctant to play to the fullest of his abilities.

The issue is that we have built the team around an egomaniac who attempts to play heroball all the damn time - Steven Gerrard. We have attempted to conform to Luis Suarez's talents, but then we still employ hoofball specialists. I just wish that we could clone Glen Johnson and play him at multiple positions.

and you call yourself a Pool fan. Gerrard has been below his standards this season, but he's carried this team for over decade mostly by himself so he has the right to play hero ball. All of your hate towards Stevie just shows how much you really like Pool. He gave his life to our club and we should repay him by forcing him to retire?? is that what you suggest?

Tbh Stevie is still a better footballer than most of our team. Until we get better players that can actually bench him, there is no point arguing to drop Stevie. He shites all day long on Allen, Henderson, Cole, Shelvey, and Sahin(on current form). Your argument is moot mate.

I'm being realistic here. Steven Gerrard loses possession more than any other Premier League footballer in the league - fact. He also has the most failed long balls in our squad - fact. Brendan Rodgers is trying to replicate what he did with Swansea City Football Club, but we cannot do it with Steven Gerrard in the lineup.

That is exactly what I mean. We are basically entitling Gerrard a position in the starting lineup simply due to his heroics for the club when he was in his prime. I completely agree with the fact that he was an outstanding player in his prime and is a Kop legend, but times have changed. He has deteriorated. And he should not drag the team down with him.

Without him, we can progress from a dependent team to a classy, technical side that emphasizes on ball retention and control. Gerrard exemplifies the opposite of this notion. When his contract expires, I'd prefer to let him go. If he wants to stay, I'd accept it, only if he took a large pay cut to go along with his cut in abilities, as well as being stripped of the captaincy. I would rather see someone with more importance to the club with that role, not someone who brings it down.

We also need to get away from the Jamie Carragher's of football. Times have changed. We cannot buy players who are known for getting "stuck in" and playing physical football. This is cancerous to the current team and the players that are being developed. What would Suso think if he sees Jonjo Shelvey being brought up as the next midfield general for Liverpool Football Club? I shudder at the thought.

We have great young players who are thankfully not hoofballers. We can build upon them with keen purchases, and stray away from the Steven Gerrard, Marouane Fellaini type of hoofball specialists.

How do we know if Gerrard is better than any of these players? We are yet to see Steven Gerrard on the bench for a sustained period of time. He has played every minute of every single one of our Premier League matches. Coincidentally, this is one of our worst Premier League season's ever.

A midfield trio of:
Lucas Leiva - Joseph Allen
Nuri Sahin [Suso]

This is an outstanding triangle, in my opinion. A proven defensive player, the link-up man, and the technical player in Sahin, with Suso as the substitute. Notice how Steven Gerrard and Jonjo Shelvey are nowhere near that team. With the hopeful signing of Lewis Holtby on a free transfer next summer, I hope for the team to look like this:

Lucas Leiva - Nuri Sahin [Allen]
Lewis Holtby [Suso]

With Gerrard getting little playing time. I would also like for him to be stripped of the captaincy - we cannot have a disgusting footballer like him being the symbol of our club anymore. He was a good symbol when he was good; now he is a blip on our club's squad.

Calling Gerrard disgusting and calling for him to be stripped of captaincy is exactly why I can't take a single thing you wrote there seriously.

Funny how PeerIess took over 80 posts and 2 months to choose an actual club to support and his only posts on the matter have been bashing the players/manager/management.

Stop trolling, PeerIess, or you will face official warnings and then a ban.

So I take it hes not actually a Liverpool fan.

I got deceived here..I actually thought he was German/Bundesliga fan all this while.

Aside from the disgusting bit, I think all the points there are valid. Gerrard isn't a modern technical player that should be playing in a ball retention team. He should gradually just be eased out similar to Lampard at Chelsea.

And be strapped of captaincy, you think that's a valid point too?? He's a very class man, a great motivator, and an icon to many of our players. If he's benched, whichever vice-captain on the pitch will be captain. It's pointless to strip legends of captaincy, if they are benched that takes care of it itself, and their commanding presence is much needed in the dressing room.

Nah, there's no need for him to be stripped off captaincy. If he's on the bench then the vice captain will the captain.

RedOranje wrote:Funny how PeerIess took over 80 posts and 2 months to choose an actual club to support and his only posts on the matter have been bashing the players/manager/management.

Stop trolling, PeerIess, or you will face official warnings and then a ban.

So having an opinion that is different from what most people think is now classified as trolling? I myself don't post often on football forums, but when I do, I usually take the time to speak my mind in a logical way. What else do you expect me to do? Laud the management for their pathetic transfers, laud our players for sub-par performances, and laud our apparent "best player" even though he is the root of our problem?

I have the right to be critical about the team I support. If you think that it is trolling, then that is nothing short of pitiful. Trolling is much worse than what I am saying. I am speaking logically and attempting to form an ideal midfield that could lead us back to success.

It's sad that someone having a different opinion is now constituted as trolling. Just look at my posts properly, and you can see that they are logically formed. Am I saying to buy some more overrated English players? Am I suggesting that we purchase more "overrated English players"? Am I saying that a footballer such as Stewart Downing is the best English player at the moment? Of course not. I am just talking about options that we, Liverpool Football Club, have that can allow improvement not only as a team, but as a club.

Abramovich wrote:So I take it hes not actually a Liverpool fan.

I am. I just never took the time to click the "Supported Club" option.

Yohan Modric wrote:Aside from the disgusting bit, I think all the points there are valid. Gerrard isn't a modern technical player that should be playing in a ball retention team. He should gradually just be eased out similar to Lampard at Chelsea.

I do find him to be the same calibre player as Marouane Fellaini - a hoofball specialist that can perform sporadic moments of magic. That is a perfect description of the current Steven Gerrard, who's reputation for this club veils his obvious shortcomings and failures for our squad at the moment. As Shakespeare once said: "Robes and furr'd gowns hide all. Plate sin with gold, and the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks. Arm it in rags, a pigmy’s straw does pierce it. "

Surag wrote:I got deceived here..I actually thought he was German/Bundesliga fan all this while.

I do love the Bundesliga, but I support Liverpool Football Club first and foremost. I am just not the most knowledgeable person of the Bundesliga and all of its players.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:And be strapped of captaincy, you think that's a valid point too?? He's a very class man, a great motivator, and an icon to many of our players. If he's benched, whichever vice-captain on the pitch will be captain. It's pointless to strip legends of captaincy, if they are benched that takes care of it itself, and their commanding presence is much needed in the dressing room.

Yes, that is a completely valid point. He WAS a very class man, he WAS a great motivator, and he WAS an icon to many of our players. The captain of Liverpool Football Club should be the player with the most influence at our club. The one that has the most positive influence, and the player that is most important for our team. A player that has a drive not for himself, not to earn personal accolades, but is determined to gain success for the team, in trophies.

I want a captain that is a morally strong person - someone that is currently a player that the youth can look up to. Not someone who can be labelled as an automobile running out of gasoline. He does not work hard enough, he is a selfish, arrogant, tactically inept, hoof-ball encouraging thug who has been putting in consistently poor performances for three seasons, he is only being selected due to his political power at the club. Any fool could have predicted his fall, but not this meteoric disgrace that he is currently playing as now. The Gerrard of old was consistently brilliant, yet the current Gerrard can only spark a couple of times during a match.

In an ideal world, Brendan Rodgers would drop Steven Gerrard and play better footballers such as Nuri Sahin, Lucas Leiva, and Joseph Allen. In an ideal world, Steven Gerrard would be able to accept his role as a role player, and that's it. However, life is not like that. Steven Gerrard is one of the most arrogant footballers I have ever seen. In his prime, he was the quintessential engine, the prototypical box-to-box midfielder. Now, he is an overbearing central midfielder that has a massive ego. He, Steven Gerrard, said that when he gets older, he can become a Paul Scholes. He's talking about controlling a match for us at the age of 35. He is currently 32, and is the root of our midfield problem. How does he say that he can play that role, "no problem"? By the time he is 35, we will hopefully have a great midfield containing Lucas Leiva, Jordan Henderson, Joseph Allen, and Suso. We will also hopefully purchase a decent midfielder, such as Lewis Holtby, or acquire Nuri Sahin permanently from Real Madrid. Anything would be an upgrade over someone like Jonjo Shelvey. Our reserve squad is unbeaten in the U21 Premier League, and by that time some of our youth will be old enough to play in the first team. Players like Raheem Sterling and Samed Yesil will not be raw talents anymore, but refined top players who can excel for us.

Our future looks better without the Steven Gerrards', Jonjo Shelveys', and Jay Spearings'. I pray to God that Jamie Carragher retires at the end of this season, so we don't have to pay his ridiculous wages. We should have a new transfer director, and have a new philosophy to purchase technically efficient players. No more of the aforementioned players. These sort of transfers have us labelled as the laughing stock of the Premier League. The ire of knowing that your club purchased someone as technically inept as Andrew Carroll for £35M is sickening. Brilliant footballers such as David Villa, Yaya Toure, Mario Balotelli, David Silva, and our own Luis Suarez were purchased for less than Andrew Carroll. I hope for the sake of other clubs that they do not acquire the services of Damien Comolli.

As previously mentioned, you never once mentioned LFC or support for them in the first 80+ posts and 2 months of your time on the forums. You have NEVER posted in any topic before this one that discussed LFC nor have you posted in the club section. Your only posts in reference to LFC have been to attack the club at almost every level in an attempt to play excuses for a specific player and you ONLY JUST declared your support for the club at the same time.

You are either trolling or desperately attempting to give credit to opinions that you realize you have no basis for providing... the former is, by my experience, the far more likely.

Frankly, I have absolutely no reason to believe you're an LFC fan and your lazy attempt at playing the persecuted minority gives me little reason to change my initial impression.

a desperate troll, haven't seen the likes of this since Lithium forums.

And I thought i hated Gerrard...

RedOranje wrote:As previously mentioned, you never once mentioned LFC or support for them in the first 80+ posts and 2 months of your time on the forums. You have NEVER posted in any topic before this one that discussed LFC nor have you posted in the club section. Your only posts in reference to LFC have been to attack the club at almost every level in an attempt to play excuses for a specific player and you ONLY JUST declared your support for the club at the same time.

You are either trolling or desperately attempting to give credit to opinions that you realize you have no basis for providing... the former is, by my experience, the far more likely.

Frankly, I have absolutely no reason to believe you're an LFC fan and your lazy attempt at playing the persecuted minority gives me little reason to change my initial impression.

If I wanted to post solely about Liverpool, I would be on RAWK. This is a general football forum. I can post in whichever thread I choose, you know.

Nirgall wrote:And I thought i hated Gerrard...

I don't even hate him. I think he is an admirable club legend who is past his prime. Would it be 'hating' Kenneth Dalglish, a club legend, when I say that he is one of the most moronic managers I have ever seen? would it be 'hating' if I said that his billing of Andrew Carroll as a top Englishman shows his lack of managing ability?

I'm just stating the truth.

RedOranje wrote:As previously mentioned, you never once mentioned LFC or support for them in the first 80+ posts and 2 months of your time on the forums. You have NEVER posted in any topic before this one that discussed LFC nor have you posted in the club section. Your only posts in reference to LFC have been to attack the club at almost every level in an attempt to play excuses for a specific player and you ONLY JUST declared your support for the club at the same time.

You are either trolling or desperately attempting to give credit to opinions that you realize you have no basis for providing... the former is, by my experience, the far more likely.

Frankly, I have absolutely no reason to believe you're an LFC fan and your lazy attempt at playing the persecuted minority gives me little reason to change my initial impression.

What a stupid post. Almost every single part of it is flawed. I never once mentioned supporting any other team in my first 80 posts either. I have not posted in any topic regarding Liverpool Football Club because whenever I am on this forum, I only check the top threads. Why would I post about Liverpool on this forum when I can post about them on Red And White Kop? I use that forum to discuss about the goings-on of Liverpool Football Club, but this forum was billed as a general football discussion forum so I joined this to talk about other teams. Obviously a crime on my part.

How am I attacking my club at every level? All I have done is say that we have done horrible transfers, we entitle Steven Gerrard a spot in our starting eleven even though he has not been playing to standard for the past 2 seasons, and about how we have some thugs on our team. It's the truth; is it too harsh for you? I've showered praise on players that I believe have potential for our club, such as Joseph Allen, Nuri Sahin, Raheem Sterling, Fabio Borini, Luis Suarez, Glen Johnson, etc. I've given praise to our reserve team who is undefeated in the U21 Premier League. There are just players that do not strike my fancy, and there are some that are just not good enough.

I only "JUST" supported them according to you, whereas I only JUST found the button that allows me to choose which club I support when I was selecting my new avatar of a young Kenneth Dalglish. Obviously a crime on my part.

How am I trolling? Please, tell me. Is it where I say that we have bad management? That is true. Is it where I say that Steven Gerrard is a cancer to our team? That is true as well. Is it where I say that we should get rid of him soon? That is the most controversial point, but I find it to be true and that is my opinion. Are you going to tell me that your opinion is superior to mine, and mine is wrong?

What does this even mean?

RedOranje wrote:desperately attempting to give credit to opinions that you realize you have no basis for providing

I don't even understand why you have to launch personal attacks on me in the first place. I don't even understand why you even have to be a fan of a specific club to have a credible opinion. Does it bother you that I am speaking negatively of Steven Gerrard?

If you can't even use the term "troll" in the proper sense, don't bother using it at all. What I am doing is not trolling. It's me expressing my opinion. If I was trolling, I would be talking about:

- How we are the best English team based on our European success
- How we are better than X English team
- X team is bad, cheaters, etc.

It's like you expect me to think that the sun shines out of our ass all the time. We were a great team, and we still are arguably the best club in England. What should I be happy about, exactly? Luis Suarez and Raheem Sterling have been the only bright spots on a poor season so far. We are in 10th place, 8 points behind Everton Football Club. We lost 3-1 to Aston Villa Football Club the week before they get demolished 8-0 by Chelsea Football Club. We lost 3-1 to Stoke City Football Club. Stoke City Football Club, the same club that scored a grand total of 1 goal in its past 3 matches before beating us.

I merely look forward to a future without Steven Gerrard pulling [or attempting to pull, in this case] the strings for our club. If we had purchased Moussa Dembele from Fulham Football Club in the summer transfer window, I doubt we would be having this midfield dilemma. Now, if we were to get the Steven Gerrard of 2004/2005 in this current squad, I would be overjoyed. But we are left with the remains.

Lastly, I couldn't care less about if you think I am a fan of Liverpool Football Club or not. I am not going to post in every single thread about Liverpool Football Club here, when there is a better discussion forum for Liverpool Football Club in RAWK. I was just reading the posts of this thread up to where Sahin's performances for Liverpool had been discussed. I had to put my opinion through, and I apologize if it does not follow your filter for supporters of Liverpool Football Club.

Now, I ask you this: Do you think Steven Gerrard is deserving of any praise, for this season alone?

Announcing your support for a club when at the same time attacking the legendary captain both on and off the pitch, the manager, his support staff, and half the first team squad (including another legend) without showing any respect for them certainly fits the definition of trolling (someone who posts inflammatory... with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response).

RedOranje wrote:Announcing your support for a club when at the same time attacking the legendary captain both on and off the pitch, the manager, his support staff, and half the first team squad (including another legend) without showing any respect for them certainly fits the definition of trolling (someone who posts inflammatory... with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response).

What do you mean, announcing my support? Just because this is the first time I post regarding Liverpool Football Club means that it is the first time I am announcing my support for them? I chose my King Kenneth avatar earlier today, and I looked at all the other options in my Profile. Sue me.

How am I attacking him? All I am saying is that he is a poor footballer. He is a disgusting hoofballer who does not fit in with someone like Suso, or Sahin. Brendan Rodgers is trying to employ the same system he did at Swansea City Football Club, and it simply will not succeed with Steven Gerrard playing hero-ball all the time. Messiah "Aggerswagger" solidified my point with this post:

Messiah "Aggerswagger wrote:Gerrard has been below his standards this season, but he's carried this team for over decade mostly by himself so he has the right to play hero ball. All of your hate towards Stevie just shows how much you really like Pool. He gave his life to our club and we should repay him by forcing him to retire?? is that what you suggest?

This shows the disparity between the different types of supporters. On one hand, you have the critical, analytical fan that looks at players objectively, then you have the fan that is completely biased and judges players based on their careers. I think Steven Gerrard should retire based on the quality of his play this season, because he is done contributing positively to our team. Apparently this is criminal to some of you, because he is a "legend" who "has carried our team". It's the same as the Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs scenario. They are obviously old, frail, and lacking the pizazz that the more youthful players have, yet who wants to be caught saying that they want these two to retire? It's not like they are playing at a very high level anymore, like they did when they were in their prime. There is a team when you just have to stop.

I have not attacked Brendan Rodgers. I admire his footballing philosophies, but I just question his squad choices. It's obviously due to Steven Gerrard's political influence at the club, but I respect Brendan Rodgers.

Why shouldn't I criticize management? What have they done that would garner praise from me, or any other objective football fan? I mean, other than being money-grabbing Americans, they've done very little. After you look past the transfers of Andrew Carroll and Stewart Downing, you can say that management is below-average. Add in these two horrific signings, and you can say that they are mediocre.

I have not attacked half the starting team, either. This is the list of players who I think are cancers to our team:

Jamie Carragher
Jay Spearing [Bolton]
Steven Gerrard
Jonjo Shelvey
José Enrique
Joseph Cole

Half the starting team? More like a loanee, a reserve player, a role player, a decent left back playing poorly, a simply poor footballer, and an egomaniac.

Um, what about going back to topic (aka Sahin ostracized)?

You might want to open a fresh thread concerning Gerrard if you so desire, but this thread here is not the place for him. Thank you very much.

I've seen a couple of his Liverpool games he had a few decent appearances, but he wasn't the same Sahin i witnessed in Dortmund. Don't what to say more, if he is ostracized then the lad should find a that needs him, if not then back to Madrid i guess..

he made a huge mistake by leaving B.D and he knows it (even though RM and Liverpool are good clubs )

Sahin to kick RM out ??

Sahin is a great guy so if anyone "kicks" us out I'd rather it was him.

Sahin 93 minute freekick goal in the Bernabeu to send Dortmund to the finals. If there is a football God (besides Messi) he shall make this happen. I'll promise to get myself an organ donor card if this happens.

I imagine it will be difficult for Sahin to kick Madrid out from the bench

Swanhends wrote:I imagine it will be difficult for Sahin to kick Madrid out from the bench

Super sub Sahin.