paperbackwriter wrote:The Brazilian league was considered to be the best in the world when Pele was active and Santos the best team in the world.

No it wasn't.

Here is good read about it.

http://www.bagsynotin.net/2010/04/pele-the-myth-of-1000-goals/

Coming in a mere 745 games, that’s still a stunning figure. But more context is still necessary. Back in his Santos days, despite the talent in Brazil, and less exports to Europe diluting the talent base domestically compared to today, the standard Pele regularly faced was not the cream of the crop. For the majority of his career, there was no national domestic Championship in Brazil. Rather, there were twenty-seven separate State Championships. Pele played in the Campeonato Paulista, the state Championship of Sau Paulo. While this was one of the stronger leagues – containing Sau Paulo, Palmeiras & Corinthians – this still meant Pele rarely played against some of the fellow greats of his era, the likes of Garrincha, Didi, Zagallo & Nilton Santos.

Pele made hey in this lesser standard regional championship, and racked the goals up. In 1961 alone, he scored 47 goals in just 26 State Championship games. 470 of his career tally overall, in a mere 412 games. In his defence, against much stronger opposition in the Taca Brazil (a genuine national Brazilian cup competition, for which the Campeonato Paulista champions entered at the semi final stage) and the Copa Libertadores (South America’s equivalent of our Champions League), he still registered goal-a-game numbers. And for his national team, he scored 77 goals in 92 games, one of the greatest ever international scoring records. Had there been a genuine national league during Pele’s time, he’d have scored heavily. Perhaps just not as heavily as he managed in his State Championship.

In 1971, finally the first national championships formed. Pele had just entered his 30’s. That first season, Pele made 21 appearances for Santos… and scored a solitary goal. In the same national competition the next season, he scored 5 in 16 appearances. Was Pele past his peak at this point? Perhaps. But during the same seasons state championships, he was still scoring at a rate of a goal every other game, indicating the differing strength of opponent Pele could have faced consistently through his career had circumstances been different. So whole Pele should be rightly praised and lorded for the exceptional player that he was, his mind blowing, seemingly unmatchable goals tally should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Lionel Messi may never be the player Pele was, but it won’t be because he failed to score 1000 goals during his career!

Hahaha, what an ownage jiopsi! The Brasilian league didn't even exist until 1971!!

Nirgall wrote:

supra969 wrote:time zones

but still one does not draw to bolivia in an opener

Then why are you judging how a player performs in matches you don't watch?

At least ppl should watch the WC and from there know that Messi performed very well, in fact, the rest of the team underperformed more than him. Likewise I dont get to watch aRgentina much, but know that Messi does not underperfrom badly all the time like some ppl just tend to "guess" or "assume".

A question, why is Pele so well known and considered the best if the likes of Garrincha were so good? I havent watched old football And dont know much about it... but I have never heard of Garrincha tbh... is it he has less star appeal or what?

Another way to look at the awards as I said somewhere, Messi have been 3rd, 2nd twice, then 1ft thrice now in these award rankings. Now I dont know the historical legends like Pele, were they top 1-3 for 6 years in a row? Even Zidane didnt manage that I am guessing...

BarcaLearning wrote:

Nirgall wrote:

supra969 wrote:time zones

but still one does not draw to bolivia in an opener

Then why are you judging how a player performs in matches you don't watch?

At least ppl should watch the WC and from there know that Messi performed very well, in fact, the rest of the team underperformed more than him. Likewise I dont get to watch aRgentina much, but know that Messi does not underperfrom badly all the time like some ppl just tend to "guess" or "assume".

A question, why is Pele so well known and considered the best if the likes of Garrincha were so good? I havent watched old football And dont know much about it... but I have never heard of Garrincha tbh... is it he has less star appeal or what?

Another way to look at the awards as I said somewhere, Messi have been 3rd, 2nd twice, then 1ft thrice now in these award rankings. Now I dont know the historical legends like Pele, were they top 1-3 for 6 years in a row? Even Zidane didnt manage that I am guessing...

South Americans weren't eligible for Ballon d'Or before 97/98... This is my write up on Pelés career and Ballon d'Or potential seasons...

Years when Pelé would have won it, or atleast been in the top 3:

1958: I'd say Pelé. Brazils top scorer of the tournament, scored the only goal in the quarter final. Scored a hattrick in the semifinal and then he scored 2 goals in the final. He also scored 66 goals in 46 games for Santos.

1959: Di Stefano had an immense year and Pelé would probably not take it even thou he was Paulista and Copa Libertadores top scorer with a total of 53 goals in 43 games. Clear top 3 for Pelé thou.

1960: Suarez won it without any notable team trophy (neither Euros nor European cup). He scored 14 goals in 35 games for Barca. Meanwhile in Brazil Pele won the Paulista and was paulista top scorer. 33 goals in 33 games. Could/Should probably have won it. Atleast top 3.

1961: Sovori had a good year. Won Serie A and had 28 goals in 29 games. But Pelé won Taca Brsil, the Paulista and was Paulista top scorer with 47 goals in 26 games. A grand total of 62 goals in 38 official games. Pelé would probably have won it.

1962: Garrincha would probably have won it being Brazils best player of the WC. But Pelé had a much better club season and would have given him a run for his money. Garrincha had 10 goals in 31 games. Pelé had 48 goals in 37 games, won the paulista, Taca Brasil (over Garrincha in the final) Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental cup and was paulista top scorer. Pelé would have been a clear second atleast if not the winner.

1963: Pelé had 51 goals in 36 games and was Paulista top scorer, he also won Taca Brasil, Copa Libertadores and the intercontinental cup. Would probably have won it ahead of Yashin.

1964: Denis Law had 46 goals in 41 games but won nothing with his team. Pelé had 44 goals in 31 games, was paulista top scorer and won the paulista aswell as Taca Brasil with Santos. Would most probably have won the award.

1965: Would have been a tough competition between Eusebio and Pelé. Eusebio was European cup top scorer and runner up with Benfica, he also won the Portuguese league. He scored 37 goals in 29 games. Pelé was Paulista top scorer, Copa Libertadores top scorer and won the Paulista aswell as Taca Brasil with his team. He had 64 goals in 48 games. Pelé atleast second, possibly winner.

1966-1968: Pelés "dark years", injured 66 and then was mediocre by his standard the following two years. Probably not Ballon d'Or top 3 material any of the 3 years.

1969: Rivera was the star of the European cup winner aswell as Intercontinental cup winner. Pelé was back on his shining best thou with 39 goals in 38 games. Paulista winner and paulista top scorer. He also made a comeback to Brazil helping them qualify for the WC. Possibly top 3, not winner.

1970: Pelé no doubts.

1970+ Pelé entered his twilight years with new kids on the block like Johan Cruyff entering their prime...

jiopsi wrote:

paperbackwriter wrote:The Brazilian league was considered to be the best in the world when Pele was active and Santos the best team in the world.

No it wasn't.

Here is good read about it.

http://www.bagsynotin.net/2010/04/pele-the-myth-of-1000-goals/

Coming in a mere 745 games, that’s still a stunning figure. But more context is still necessary. Back in his Santos days, despite the talent in Brazil, and less exports to Europe diluting the talent base domestically compared to today, the standard Pele regularly faced was not the cream of the crop. For the majority of his career, there was no national domestic Championship in Brazil. Rather, there were twenty-seven separate State Championships. Pele played in the Campeonato Paulista, the state Championship of Sau Paulo. While this was one of the stronger leagues – containing Sau Paulo, Palmeiras & Corinthians – this still meant Pele rarely played against some of the fellow greats of his era, the likes of Garrincha, Didi, Zagallo & Nilton Santos.

Pele made hey in this lesser standard regional championship, and racked the goals up. In 1961 alone, he scored 47 goals in just 26 State Championship games. 470 of his career tally overall, in a mere 412 games. In his defence, against much stronger opposition in the Taca Brazil (a genuine national Brazilian cup competition, for which the Campeonato Paulista champions entered at the semi final stage) and the Copa Libertadores (South America’s equivalent of our Champions League), he still registered goal-a-game numbers. And for his national team, he scored 77 goals in 92 games, one of the greatest ever international scoring records. Had there been a genuine national league during Pele’s time, he’d have scored heavily. Perhaps just not as heavily as he managed in his State Championship.

In 1971, finally the first national championships formed. Pele had just entered his 30’s. That first season, Pele made 21 appearances for Santos… and scored a solitary goal. In the same national competition the next season, he scored 5 in 16 appearances. Was Pele past his peak at this point? Perhaps. But during the same seasons state championships, he was still scoring at a rate of a goal every other game, indicating the differing strength of opponent Pele could have faced consistently through his career had circumstances been different. So whole Pele should be rightly praised and lorded for the exceptional player that he was, his mind blowing, seemingly unmatchable goals tally should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Lionel Messi may never be the player Pele was, but it won’t be because he failed to score 1000 goals during his career!

Fair enough. Pelé was still widely regarded as the best player in the world by most pundits and other professionals from 58 to 66. And he beat everybody in front of him

jiopsi wrote:

paperbackwriter wrote:The Brazilian league was considered to be the best in the world when Pele was active and Santos the best team in the world.

No it wasn't.

Here is good read about it.

http://www.bagsynotin.net/2010/04/pele-the-myth-of-1000-goals/

Coming in a mere 745 games, that’s still a stunning figure. But more context is still necessary. Back in his Santos days, despite the talent in Brazil, and less exports to Europe diluting the talent base domestically compared to today, the standard Pele regularly faced was not the cream of the crop. For the majority of his career, there was no national domestic Championship in Brazil. Rather, there were twenty-seven separate State Championships. Pele played in the Campeonato Paulista, the state Championship of Sau Paulo. While this was one of the stronger leagues – containing Sau Paulo, Palmeiras & Corinthians – this still meant Pele rarely played against some of the fellow greats of his era, the likes of Garrincha, Didi, Zagallo & Nilton Santos.

Pele made hey in this lesser standard regional championship, and racked the goals up. In 1961 alone, he scored 47 goals in just 26 State Championship games. 470 of his career tally overall, in a mere 412 games. In his defence, against much stronger opposition in the Taca Brazil (a genuine national Brazilian cup competition, for which the Campeonato Paulista champions entered at the semi final stage) and the Copa Libertadores (South America’s equivalent of our Champions League), he still registered goal-a-game numbers. And for his national team, he scored 77 goals in 92 games, one of the greatest ever international scoring records. Had there been a genuine national league during Pele’s time, he’d have scored heavily. Perhaps just not as heavily as he managed in his State Championship.

In 1971, finally the first national championships formed. Pele had just entered his 30’s. That first season, Pele made 21 appearances for Santos… and scored a solitary goal. In the same national competition the next season, he scored 5 in 16 appearances. Was Pele past his peak at this point? Perhaps. But during the same seasons state championships, he was still scoring at a rate of a goal every other game, indicating the differing strength of opponent Pele could have faced consistently through his career had circumstances been different. So whole Pele should be rightly praised and lorded for the exceptional player that he was, his mind blowing, seemingly unmatchable goals tally should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Lionel Messi may never be the player Pele was, but it won’t be because he failed to score 1000 goals during his career!

paperbackwriter is owned

Khaledbarca wrote:

zizzle wrote:well i was thinking about this the other day. Imagine if C.Ronaldo played in a different era where there's no Messi, chances are Ronaldo would be considered the better player since he's more "complete". I mean now that these two go head to head a few times every year we can tell who's better, but if the we're talking stats and awards, which is the only efficient way we can use to compare players from different eras, then the gap between the two would be so minimal that its no longer a factor (granted that Ronaldo would be winning more in a Messiless world)

C.Ronaldo is more complete? can u explain HOW is he more complete?

well people can argue that he's more physical/athletic and he plays better with his head...you know, the usual crap

Also... how do you figure Ronaldo would be winning as much as Messi in a Messi-less world? Is Ronaldo better than R9, Maradona, the late 80s Milan trio, etc?

Well you can never really say for sure.

well in terms of Ballon d'Ors Ronaldo came twice behind Messi so in a Messi-less world he'd probably have 3 golden balls by now. In terms of titles i think you might agree that without Messi Barca wouldnt be the best team in the world and this icreases Ronaldo's chances of winning a few more medals/

billionmillion wrote:

jiopsi wrote:

paperbackwriter wrote:The Brazilian league was considered to be the best in the world when Pele was active and Santos the best team in the world.

No it wasn't.

Here is good read about it.

http://www.bagsynotin.net/2010/04/pele-the-myth-of-1000-goals/

Coming in a mere 745 games, that’s still a stunning figure. But more context is still necessary. Back in his Santos days, despite the talent in Brazil, and less exports to Europe diluting the talent base domestically compared to today, the standard Pele regularly faced was not the cream of the crop. For the majority of his career, there was no national domestic Championship in Brazil. Rather, there were twenty-seven separate State Championships. Pele played in the Campeonato Paulista, the state Championship of Sau Paulo. While this was one of the stronger leagues – containing Sau Paulo, Palmeiras & Corinthians – this still meant Pele rarely played against some of the fellow greats of his era, the likes of Garrincha, Didi, Zagallo & Nilton Santos.

Pele made hey in this lesser standard regional championship, and racked the goals up. In 1961 alone, he scored 47 goals in just 26 State Championship games. 470 of his career tally overall, in a mere 412 games. In his defence, against much stronger opposition in the Taca Brazil (a genuine national Brazilian cup competition, for which the Campeonato Paulista champions entered at the semi final stage) and the Copa Libertadores (South America’s equivalent of our Champions League), he still registered goal-a-game numbers. And for his national team, he scored 77 goals in 92 games, one of the greatest ever international scoring records. Had there been a genuine national league during Pele’s time, he’d have scored heavily. Perhaps just not as heavily as he managed in his State Championship.

In 1971, finally the first national championships formed. Pele had just entered his 30’s. That first season, Pele made 21 appearances for Santos… and scored a solitary goal. In the same national competition the next season, he scored 5 in 16 appearances. Was Pele past his peak at this point? Perhaps. But during the same seasons state championships, he was still scoring at a rate of a goal every other game, indicating the differing strength of opponent Pele could have faced consistently through his career had circumstances been different. So whole Pele should be rightly praised and lorded for the exceptional player that he was, his mind blowing, seemingly unmatchable goals tally should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Lionel Messi may never be the player Pele was, but it won’t be because he failed to score 1000 goals during his career!

paperdickwriter is owned

Genital name calling huh? How old are we?