Lynx100 wrote:

ErPupone wrote:

Lynx100 wrote:Yes montolivo is a worse overall player than Pizarro.

Sure he might offer something different. Something lesser than Marchisio and Vidal in all aspects. He has more defensive qualities than Pirlo and thats the only wsy he will be useful. That and as a sub for one of the three.

And no, he's not the best option. But yes, he will do as a 5th choice. Id play Marrone over him.

So you're saying that every single one of Vidal and Marchisio's traits are better than those of Montolivo. I find that extremely hard to believe. And my point was not to compare Pizarro and Montolivo, it was just to apply your logic to the situation...

And if you would buy Montolivo but use Marrone over him, thus making him 5th choice, then... well that would make no sense lol.

Well, maybe I fail to see it then - so please explain to me how any Montolivos traits are better than those of Marchisio or Vidal?

I wouldnt buy Montolivo. thats the point. But IF I were the coach, and Marotta bought him even though i didnt ask for him, hed be after Marrone in the pecking order for me. But thats just my humble opinion

Well first of all, Montolivo naturally plays a different role than Marchisio and Vidal, so it's only natural that he has different characteristics. His playmaking skills (passing, creativity) are better than Marchisio's for example. Am I saying that makes him better overall? No I'm not. But from your previous post it seemed like you said that every single one of Marchisio's traits are better, which is obviously untrue.

Your point is that you wouldn't buy Montolivo, which is perfectly fine. But in your post, you dismissed Montolivo in an unfair comparison (or at least it was unfair in my eyes).

Putting myself in the shoes of a Juve fan, would I be upset if Montolivo joined the team? How could I be? The team would be getting one of Italy's starting midfielders for free. He wouldn't lessen the quality of the team, he would provide more depth and is definitely a good enough player to fight for his spot. Of course, I say this while taking into consideration how he plays when he's at his best, and not really focusing on this season with Fiorentina since he's been extremely unmotivated and with reason.

I rate Marchisio passing and creativity WAY higher than Monto's. WAY higher. Infact, since being played as a CM, these are the aspects that have grown the most for marchisio.

Im not upset because hes a bad player - its part of a larger, bigger scale problem you see. Im upset because promising young players do not get the chance to shine, and are relegated even further because of players like Montolivo. Marrone goes from being 4th choice to 5th choice (thats the difference between being on the bench and being in the stands). I see Marrone as a hugely talented player (def more so than Monto) and he needs his time to shine.

This is the problem with Juve, and Italy as a whole and one thing that puts Serie A behind the other major leagues...our talent is not fostered. If this becomes the case, we can fight with the biggest clubs int he world. The Barcas, the Man Utd, the Bayerns etc.. all have home grown youth players who bleed the colours of the their club and value the shirt so much more than other players.

If Marrone misses his chance, he will just be another talent wasted unless he gets the chacne to prove hsi worth elsewhere enough for us to put our tail between our legs and bring him back (Giovinco)..

Lynx100 wrote:I rate Marchisio passing and creativity WAY higher than Monto's. WAY higher. Infact, since being played as a CM, these are the aspects that have grown the most for marchisio.

Im not upset because hes a bad player - its part of a larger, bigger scale problem you see. Im upset because promising young players do not get the chance to shine, and are relegated even further because of players like Montolivo. Marrone goes from being 4th choice to 5th choice (thats the difference between being on the bench and being in the stands). I see Marrone as a hugely talented player (def more so than Monto) and he needs his time to shine.

This is the problem with Juve, and Italy as a whole and one thing that puts Serie A behind the other major leagues...our talent is not fostered. If this becomes the case, we can fight with the biggest clubs int he world. The Barcas, the Man Utd, the Bayerns etc.. all have home grown youth players who bleed the colours of the their club and value the shirt so much more than other players.

If Marrone misses his chance, he will just be another talent wasted unless he gets the chacne to prove hsi worth elsewhere enough for us to put our tail between our legs and bring him back (Giovinco)..

Ah well that's a problem that goes beyond the intent of this topic. In that aspect, I agree that these young players should get their chance to grow. There always has to be a consistent integration of young players in order to avoid the need for huge overhauls and gigantic spending sprees to rejuvenate the squad. This long term way of thinking will be extremely useful, especially since teams will be able to be in part self-sufficient. I can't disagree with giving a player like Marrone his shot.

That all being said, if Juve were to go out and spend a nice sum of money on a player, they can't possibly put him further down the line than someone like Marrone. It would make no sense really. But of course, the point of this discussion was to compare the three possibilities mentioned. And I'll stick by my original point in saying that Montolivo could fit in quite easily without causing a huge drop in quality within the starting 11 (and I mean as a replacement for any of the three current starting midfielders). Getting Pizarro wouldn't really make any sense to me because, as you said, it would be taking time away from someone like Marrone. Making that move would go against what Juve's intentions were at the beginning of this season. If giving a youngster more playing time and rejecting a player like Pizarro means sacrificing this year's Scudetto race in favor of a more successful future, then I for one wouldn't be against this decision. Montolivo, when I said he's "in-between" the others, I meant he could give you some instant depth without a loss of quality in general, while promising you a few more seasons at his current/higher level.

As a free transfer, we cant ask for better than Monto in the current market. Thats for sure.

IMHO, he would be a sub for our players. He would cause a drop the quality of the midfield, not hugely but certainly noticeably.

The issue with me is - I really dont want Monto to come as Marrone can do what Monto can do and I dont Monto as being hugely superior to Marrone.

What neither Monto or Marrone can do though (or atleast do well) is be a vice-Pirlo. THIS is where i think Pizarro would be the better option over Monto. With Pirlo aging, he wont be able to play every game as hes not a J.Zanetti who is better atletically and defensively at 38y.o than most players are at 28y.o.

A vice-Pirlo is a must and Pizzaro wont take away game time from Marrone who needs to flourish. Monto would.

Pizzaro and Marrone are better substitute-options for our midfield than Montolivo and Marrone.

Btw, +1 ErPupone for being able to hold an intelligent, constructive debate without throwing around insults, facepalms or other ridiculous expressions even though we disagree.

No problem man.

I guess I understand what you're saying. But, I just don't see why you would want to get Pizarro. He's a great player, but that's not my issue here. It's just strange that you would want to get him for a short term measure instead of offering more time to your younger players. I don't think Pizarro would want to join Juve only to sit on the bench and wait for Pirlo to throw in the towel. Montolivo, being more versatile, could offer more and for a longer period of time. He and Marrone on the bench would be great to have not only for this season, but for a couple of years to come after which, when Pirlo calls the quits, they could both make a case for themselves in the starting 11.

You don't need to +1 Mike, the guy is a genius. I love his posts.

P.S if you think i'm bsing, refer to the past

I guess I understand what you're saying. But, I just don't see why you would want to get Pizarro. He's a great player, but that's not my issue here. It's just strange that you would want to get him for a short term measure instead of offering more time to your younger players. I don't think Pizarro would want to join Juve only to sit on the bench and wait for Pirlo to throw in the towel. Montolivo, being more versatile, could offer more and for a longer period of time. He and Marrone on the bench would be great to have not only for this season, but for a couple of years to come after which, when Pirlo calls the quits, they could both make a case for themselves in the starting 11.

The reason for Pizarro is very simple - is that he is a vice-PIRLO that we need. Neither Marrone or Monto can be vice-Pirlo. He is a short term solution until a more permanent solution can be found.

We need a sub for Pirlo, and a sub for Marchisio/Vidal.

So my plan at the moment would be: Pizarro for Pirlo & Marrone for March/Vidal.

Not seeing Pizarro as a long term solution. Just a temp fix until the summer transfer window. If Marrone is treated as EQUAL to Monto, then Im all for Monto coming (only if coming free) BUT I dont think thatll happen. If Monto comes, hell be ahead of Marrone in the pecking order and if Marrone has to be bumped, it needs to be for a player of far superior talent, which to me, Montolivo is not.

Thats my 2 cents anyway