Big Z

Godly post

Zealous

I love how you defend our cantera, I still think it's the best academy out there, only thing wrong is none gives them a worthy chance

Cantera players are very good... in the league they're playing right now. The next step is to play in a top league, but not a Madrid. Once they pass that test with flying colors, then you get your shot at Madrid.

Remember that only the best in the world get a chance to play for Real Madrid. Everyone wants to come here. It's highly, highly unlikely and frankly completely unnecessary to gamble on a completely unproven player given our situation... even if they are great players at the Castilla level.

Just reality. And it's not going to change anytime soon.

Yeah lets buy 4th squad and win another cdr

yeah lets walk in that dying league that is series A

Valencia will finish top 2 there

sportsczy wrote:Cantera players are very good... in the league they're playing right now. The next step is to play in a top league, but not a Madrid. Once they pass that teat with flying colors, then you get your shot at Madrid.

Remember that only the best in the world get a chance to play for Real Madrid. Everyone wants to come here. It's highly, highly unlikely and frankly completely unnecessary to gamble on a completely unproven player given our situation... even if they are great players at the Castilla level.

Just reality. And it's not going to change anytime soon.

Those "best in the world players" have done f*ck all for a while until very recently when Mou came in and even now we haven't won anything yet. A miracle season and a much easier than it looked league win not withstanding.

I think there is a fundamental idea you guys are not absorbing. They're teenagers, they will not be better than a professional footballer immediately. However getting minutes with Real Madrid helps their development and turns them into quality players.

It's a not a difficult concept, if a talented young player gets used to playing with Real Madrid at the Bernabeu then he gets better. It's not like we are even asking for them to start, with the amount of games we play that are over by the first half you would think giving minutes to a couple of cantenaros wouldn't be too much of a gamble.

Also Lass and Altintop are on this team (I want to add Blond donkey here but that would be harsh) stop trying to convince me that only the best play here lol

Juan Mata > Di Maria

Would still get in our team, just sayin'

But Z... young players can only truly develop with playing time. There is no playing time for them right now or in the foreseeable future. Only time they would see the field is if there's an injury emergency or a bunch of suspensions... and do you really think that Mou is going to rely on a kid who's never competed in a top league or played to bail Madrid out? No way.

As it is, Granero, Varane, Callejon ,etc. are really having it tough and are either already fed up with no playing time or will be in the next 1-2 years. Altintop has already expressed his displeasure.

Bottom line... develop kids with playing time. There is none at Madrid until they can be trusted and that can only happen if they prove themselves somewhere else.

omarish wrote:Juan Mata > Di Maria

Would still get in our team, just sayin'

That's because Mata left and developed as a full time starter with another team. Do you really think he would've gotten the same chance at Madrid? No way. That's my point in fact... get these kids to a place where they get on the field and learn by playing. With Mata, the situation was difficult because of his demands and we had no buy back.

I'm hoping Sarabia and Canales will eventually show themselves, although one is having a rough time and the other has a long term injury.

Well it won"t happen unless the coach can out his trust into those he thinks are ready.

I'm not saying it isn't a gamble but I think it's a gamble worth making.

Oh well hope that most of our buy back options are used correctly.

Sarabia is being used like crap at Getafe tbh... that team sucks. We should at least force the team we're lending to into playing our players in the correct roles lol.

I've said this a million times... a lot of our top cantera players would easily start for good Ligue 1 teams and the buyback would be no problem. The coaching is very good in France as they are required to get a license and go through training before getting to coach in Ligue 1. Only those with foreign experience can get a waiver on this. Loan our kids to a place which is know to develop kids well...

Zealous wrote:If Negredo or Soldado still played for Madrid you guys would rate them higher. When you play with better players you play better.

What kills me is that you guys don't even watch Castilla games or even watch games where youth products are playing.

Look at the last two goals in this video, who do you think that is? I bet he isn't a Cantera product, that for sure they suck after all. Wait? What? Is that Juan Carlos? And wait he isn't even the most talented guy in Castilla when he was playing?



Here's a game recently played by the U21 Spainish side. Glad there are no Real Madrid affiliated players there.



Hey Number 11 and Number 9 look like good players, I wonder who they are. That Thiago kid who is totally good enough looks on their level of play.

What? That's Sarabia and Rodrigo? And Rodrigo is even scoring the Champion's League? Wow Those cantera kids are not heaping piles of sh*t after all.

You don't watch Madrid youth play and yet you feel like you are qualified enough to talk about how good they are. You probably don't even watch Neymar, Hazard or M'Villa play and yet they should be number 1 targets. FFS

This "If they are good enough they will force their way into the team" argument is hilariously wrong.

When Raul started playing El Buitre was still the better player. Don Alfredo took a gamble on Emilio many years before. The point is you give them a shot. Maybe you get a Javier Portillio once in a while but if you keep an eye out for them you get your Raul's and Emilio's.

It's pretty sad TBH. Waiting for a teenager to be as good as a professional footballer for him to get a few minutes is the exact same attitude why we have trouble with the Cantera.

It's frustrating and you guys make it more so.

Yes, I don't watch Castilla any more not since Real Madrid TV was taken off Sky.
I'm not attacking our youths Z most of the players produced play first team football in the first division that's alot better than most top teams around the world.

And you have absolutely no idea of how much footy I actually watch, only cause I have a low post count or whatever doesn't mean I watch any less than you do.
Believe it or not uni does keep people busy...

But that's not the point M'villa looks great, Neymar I like but not as much as Hazard cause he can slot right into di maria's spot.
The way I see it is if the Cantera's are really that great they don't need need someone to do them any favours consistant performances will demand a call up.
Remeber a young GK coming on as a sub during a 2001 CL final and never looking back?-that's how it's done.

I would like nothing better than having cantera's in the line up, but let's be realistic this is Real Madrid the most illustrious club. Only the strongest will get to that level and to me only Jese looks good enough from what i've seen in pre season, but yh that's just my opinion.
There's a difference in being good enough to play as a starter for madrid who always look for the best in the world for every position and being a starter for a club like Arsenal for ex.

Believe it or not Casillas comin in as a sub in 2002 was not his first game, it wasn't even his first final. Iker had played in the league plenty of times because someone took a gamble on him.

The attitude you are promoting is why Casillas is the only player to have went from youth team to first team in our squad.

When we were wondering why Barça canteros are directly integrated in the first team, the answer was simply "they have already a good chemistry" so anyone who is about to play in the starting 11 is a little bit confident and his lacks will not been severly shown coz the players play like a "TEAM" to hide each others errors. Barça has among their stars an average players but over estimated when they are on the pitch.
The whole idea is that integrating youth players in a team that works already good is much easier and benficial for the player and for the team, and i believe that we are making good chemistry that allow our canteros to play in the first team without beeing loaned first.

does it look like our players arent doing well when they get the chance???

heck our canteranos have scored more goals when being played for 10 mins than those cule b*tches' youth that are being played full games ffs

thiago is a first teamer btw

you dont think they would do better than feckers such as the blond donkey, altinflop, granero(eventhough he is a cantera we have mids that are heaps better than him) and lass

seriously if isac is getting his debut with farca why cant jese who is hands and feets better and more talented than him

i dont buy the crap excuse of we already have players it wouldnt be fair for them, why did we buy them in the first place???

i suggest you watch our castilla game today, youll see what we are all raving for

Yeah Altintop... anyways :hungry:

There is a difference in mentality, obviously. If you keep making the canteros feel like they arent good enough, it's going to impact them. Barca is going the other around, and making them feel like they belong, repeatedly breaching the first team call up, not to make it feel like it's some mystic veil only the chosen ones can access. It's clearly the type of mentality that we have been nurturing for a while, and it's saddening.

When i read people mentioning how we need youngsters like Casillas only, i facepalm myself. How can you know? It's easy to look in hindsight and make that kind of comment imo. We need to stop acting like the 1st team is a realm of fairies and flying ponies.

Another important factor here, is team philosophy within the whole system. One of the reasons it's easier for barca to promote their kids, is because they train so long to play a single position, and even at lower levels, they know about 90% of what their job is on the pitch. Something we lack, there is no such things between Castilla and the 1st team, their tactic and philosophy of play is nothing like ours, so it makes it even harder for mou, who spend so much time working on tactics, to just throw a kid in the fray.

If we were playing a form of 4231 with the same requirement mou is asking from the first team, ie counters, defending, pressing etc, with the each player working on a specific position, it would be a platform for him to see how mature players are getting, as far as the understanding of the game goes. And if it happens at earlier levels, you create position specialists fitting your scheme of play from the bottom. You end up with high pressing wingers, that can pass and score goals, a classic n.10 that can play close to the middle and dictate the play, an all around forward, ball playing CBs, flying fullbacks, complete midfielders. And if you have them learn other positions as well, You have a versatile team: CBs that can play as FBs, your most withdrawn midfielder that can play as CB, an AM that can play CM and be paired up with a DM, wingers that can play across the field left and right, and players that can all pass cleanly.

we could have made that excuse had our canteranos NOT performed when given the chance

in fact it is the other way round they perform really good when given the chance and opps all of a sudden altintop is more important than them and gets subbed in

thats what bugs me tbh

anyways anyone have a stream???

teza1992 wrote:

Zealous wrote:If Negredo or Soldado still played for Madrid you guys would rate them higher. When you play with better players you play better.

What kills me is that you guys don't even watch Castilla games or even watch games where youth products are playing.

Look at the last two goals in this video, who do you think that is? I bet he isn't a Cantera product, that for sure they suck after all. Wait? What? Is that Juan Carlos? And wait he isn't even the most talented guy in Castilla when he was playing?



Here's a game recently played by the U21 Spainish side. Glad there are no Real Madrid affiliated players there.



Hey Number 11 and Number 9 look like good players, I wonder who they are. That Thiago kid who is totally good enough looks on their level of play.

What? That's Sarabia and Rodrigo? And Rodrigo is even scoring the Champion's League? Wow Those cantera kids are not heaping piles of sh*t after all.

You don't watch Madrid youth play and yet you feel like you are qualified enough to talk about how good they are. You probably don't even watch Neymar, Hazard or M'Villa play and yet they should be number 1 targets. FFS

This "If they are good enough they will force their way into the team" argument is hilariously wrong.

When Raul started playing El Buitre was still the better player. Don Alfredo took a gamble on Emilio many years before. The point is you give them a shot. Maybe you get a Javier Portillio once in a while but if you keep an eye out for them you get your Raul's and Emilio's.

It's pretty sad TBH. Waiting for a teenager to be as good as a professional footballer for him to get a few minutes is the exact same attitude why we have trouble with the Cantera.

It's frustrating and you guys make it more so.

Yes, I don't watch Castilla any more not since Real Madrid TV was taken off Sky.
I'm not attacking our youths Z most of the players produced play first team football in the first division that's alot better than most top teams around the world.

And you have absolutely no idea of how much footy I actually watch, only cause I have a low post count or whatever doesn't mean I watch any less than you do.
Believe it or not uni does keep people busy...

But that's not the point M'villa looks great, Neymar I like but not as much as Hazard cause he can slot right into di maria's spot.
The way I see it is if the Cantera's are really that great they don't need need someone to do them any favours consistant performances will demand a call up.
Remeber a young GK coming on as a sub during a 2001 CL final and never looking back?-that's how it's done.

I would like nothing better than having cantera's in the line up, but let's be realistic this is Real Madrid the most illustrious club. Only the strongest will get to that level and to me only Jese looks good enough from what i've seen in pre season, but yh that's just my opinion.
There's a difference in being good enough to play as a starter for madrid who always look for the best in the world for every position and being a starter for a club like Arsenal for ex.

Ummmmmmmm he started in the 2000 CL final.

Jus Sayin.

Also, Barca B plays in the second division while Madrid Castilla is in the 3rd division... that's already a big step up. Not to mention every team in the Barca hierarchy playing the exact system, training the exact same way, etc.

Finally, Barca has just recently reached the level of expectations close to a Madrid's. Before that, they were never a consistent elite club. They had 1 year with R9 and another with Romario where they were great... other than that, nothing to get excited about and FAR from being a European elite.

Now that they have this level of expectation from fans and sponsors, they can no longer take the risks that they have. As soon as the results drop even slightly, they will be forced to make big changes... Madrid went mental with this lol. No need to go there. But Barca's world today is definitely different than the one prior to Ronaldinho and Eto'o joining.

the difference between barca b and real castilla is that barca b are struggling for survival whereas real madrid castilla are not

again it doesnt matter as their form with the A team is what counts not what league they play in

I agree with your desires re canteras z, but I think Nick has it right. First off re next year, we only make one or two changes, so I don't think we take any canteras next year. I am however hopeful for the year after.

We have 4 or 5 areas we need changed to make a proper progression path from Castilla to 1st team.

1. We need consistent play and coaching between our teams. Barcelona for instance has all teams playing exact same system. Their last two coaches were Pep and Luis Enrique, two former star Barca players and good coaches.

2. We need to get Casilla to liga adelante. They need the higher liga to facilitate maturity.

3. We need a smaller squad, say 21 or 22 players. As long as Mou insists on 2 full teams plus 2 or 3 reserves, there isn't room to play canteras.

4. We need coach to utilize his entire roster. Mou is doing much better this year, but we still have Granero, Altintop getting no action at all. This is obviously frustrating to these players, imagine how it would be for a 20 year old. As with Canales last year, the inactivity can kill or least put on hold the development / maturation required.

I do believe we are headed in this direction, but for the next few years we need to concentrate on the players already on loan to have any chance of promotion.

However as I said at beginning of thread, I only expect 1 or 2 additions for next year (plus I'm expecting us to be holders of la decima, liga and copa - or at least a couple of these).

Zealous wrote:If Negredo or Soldado still played for Madrid you guys would rate them higher. When you play with better players you play better.

What kills me is that you guys don't even watch Castilla games or even watch games where youth products are playing.

Look at the last two goals in this video, who do you think that is? I bet he isn't a Cantera product, that for sure they suck after all. Wait? What? Is that Juan Carlos? And wait he isn't even the most talented guy in Castilla when he was playing?



Here's a game recently played by the U21 Spainish side. Glad there are no Real Madrid affiliated players there.



Hey Number 11 and Number 9 look like good players, I wonder who they are. That Thiago kid who is totally good enough looks on their level of play.

What? That's Sarabia and Rodrigo? And Rodrigo is even scoring the Champion's League? Wow Those cantera kids are not heaping piles of sh*t after all.

You don't watch Madrid youth play and yet you feel like you are qualified enough to talk about how good they are. You probably don't even watch Neymar, Hazard or M'Villa play and yet they should be number 1 targets. FFS

This "If they are good enough they will force their way into the team" argument is hilariously wrong.

When Raul started playing El Buitre was still the better player. Don Alfredo took a gamble on Emilio many years before. The point is you give them a shot. Maybe you get a Javier Portillio once in a while but if you keep an eye out for them you get your Raul's and Emilio's.

It's pretty sad TBH. Waiting for a teenager to be as good as a professional footballer for him to get a few minutes is the exact same attitude why we have trouble with the Cantera.

It's frustrating and you guys make it more so.

The Wrath of Zealous.

futbol_bill wrote:I agree with your desires re canteras z, but I think Nick has it right. First off re next year, we only make one or two changes, so I don't think we take any canteras next year. I am however hopeful for the year after.

We have 4 or 5 areas we need changed to make a proper progression path from Castilla to 1st team.

1. We need consistent play and coaching between our teams. Barcelona for instance has all teams playing exact same system. Their last two coaches were Pep and Luis Enrique, two former star Barca players and good coaches.

2. We need to get Casilla to liga adelante. They need the higher liga to facilitate maturity.

3. We need a smaller squad, say 21 or 22 players. As long as Mou insists on 2 full teams plus 2 or 3 reserves, there isn't room to play canteras.

4. We need coach to utilize his entire roster. Mou is doing much better this year, but we still have Granero, Altintop getting no action at all. This is obviously frustrating to these players, imagine how it would be for a 20 year old. As with Canales last year, the inactivity can kill or least put on hold the development / maturation required.

I do believe we are headed in this direction, but for the next few years we need to concentrate on the players already on loan to have any chance of promotion.

However as I said at beginning of thread, I only expect 1 or 2 additions for next year (plus I'm expecting us to be holders of la decima, liga and copa - or at least a couple of these).

This. We need to nurture our youth. Need to rescue sarabia from getafe. That kid is awesome and will be our future if handled correctly. Right now he's just rotting at getafe. However till we dominate la liga and cl, our youth wont get the chance because we will be under immense pressure to beat barca. All these signings that we make are just in response to barca's success. Back when we promoted the likes of casillas and raul we were constantly winning or at least reaching the semis or finals of the cl. how many cl's have we won in the last decade?? 1 that too way back in 2002-03. So until we start dominating the cl and liga again, we can just forget about our youth as no one will want to take a risk and fall further behind barca