Iceman wrote:I said Ramshere. Their partnership is great. Dominated United in our 1-0 win last season.
Plus, I rate Wilshere higher than Kroos, and rightly so imo. I also don't think Ramsey is that far behind Kroos; He's just getting over his leg break that put him on the sidelines for over a year.

VibeTribe wrote:

Immaculate_Mole wrote:

VibeTribe wrote:Style wise,Kroos is the nearest thing to Zidane I've seen.

Iniesta reminds me more of Zidane than Kroos does.......

Kroos is an amazing young talent who i enjoy watching greatly but he doesnt remind me of Zidane in anyway tbh.

Iniesta is just a completely different mould of a player,come on now...Kroos is in the same mould as Zidane,still far far away from him though.

babun1024 wrote:Kroos' isn't similar to Zidane or other greats, no need to compare now, we'll see at the end of his career.
What he has in common with the likes of Zidane and Iniesta is his role in the team. He starts off as CM deeper like

-------------DM--------------
-------Kroos----piggy-------

When he plays but as soon as he sees possibilities or starts a pass himself he moves up into CAM position:

------------DM-------------
-----------------piggy-----
-------Kroos---------------

Piggy does it as well like in the diagram above but Kroos is allowed to go even into wing position, as far as an inside forward (Muller). Like you could see in youtube videos, he has no problems to pass, cross or shoot with either foot from everywhere.
Zidane and Iniesta were/are hybrid CM/AM like him. Their ability to switch their role upon reading the game makes their influence on the teams play overall huge. Zidane had insane stamina and ball control so his job was more than influencig upper midfield only. Iniesta and Kroos share their responsibilities with Xavi and piggy respectively more

Iceman wrote:I said Ramshere. Their partnership is great. Dominated United in our 1-0 win last season.
Plus, I rate Wilshere higher than Kroos, and rightly so imo. I also don't think Ramsey is that far behind Kroos; He's just getting over his leg break that put him on the sidelines for over a year.

Read the upper part of my post. To play like that the player needs to be like live coach on the pitch. He has to tactically read the game to adapt his game appropriatly all the time. For that, you need an insane footballing brain, Ramshere don't have it at Kroos' level. If they meet each other (Arsenal vs. Bayern), piggy+Kroos will easily dominate your Ramshere

Iceman wrote:P.S. Am I actually saying that Ramsey is so much better than Kroos? No, I'm not. I'm ridiculing this rubbish style of hyping, praising and rating players based on a thread with videos and some stupid emoticons

Sushi Master wrote:Ramsey doesn't have that balls out attitude that Wilshere has, though.

Ramsey's passing is underrated. He's only 20 and is improving every game, just give him time. He's under immense pressure. Wilshere, Ramsey, Kroos are all on the same level, IMO, at least potential wise.

Sushi Master wrote:Ramsey doesn't have that balls out attitude that Wilshere has, though.

Ramsey's passing is underrated. He's only 20 and is improving every game, just give him time. He's under immense pressure. Wilshere, Ramsey, Kroos are all on the same level, IMO, at least potential wise.

babun1024 wrote: Kroos is 21. There're things you don't learn with time, quick thinking is a part of it. In final third, you can't play like in CM, therefore Wilshere>>> Ramsey in my books Wilshere is actually, CAM material, more than Ramsey. Second, Kroos has to compete with Robbery and Muller for a starting place If it isn't pressure then I don't know

Babun wrote:Kroos is 21. There're things you don't learn with time, quick thinking is a part of it. In final third, you can't play like in CM, therefore Wilshere>>> Ramsey in my books eco smile Wilshere is actually, CAM material, more than Ramsey. Second, Kroos has to compete with Robbery and Muller for a starting place eco smile If it isn't pressure then I don't know eco smile

Iceman wrote:

babun1024 wrote: Kroos is 21. There're things you don't learn with time, quick thinking is a part of it. In final third, you can't play like in CM, therefore Wilshere>>> Ramsey in my books Wilshere is actually, CAM material, more than Ramsey. Second, Kroos has to compete with Robbery and Muller for a starting place If it isn't pressure then I don't know

That's untrue. Ramsey was completely fine and very decisive in the final third before his injury. His injury, that kept him out for a whole year and nearly ruined his career, shook him up and took away his confidence (which is understandable). When without confidence, making decisions becomes really hard and that is what happened with Ramsey. Recently, he has been getting a lot better (Examples: his amazing, mouth-gaping, through ball for Walcott vs WBA, his pre-assist against Chelsea for our first equalizer), and all of that is down to confidence. To undermine the effect of that injury would be foolish.
Plus, if you remember, Kroos was deemed as a "not-so-good" player just a couple of seasons ago, so to say that Ramsey or Wilshere won't improve any more isn't so smart.

And no, competing with injured players is not as pressuring as having to lead club and country at the age of 19/20. Ramsey was thrown into the wild and was expected to make Arsenal win game after game. It's no wonder that he started to flourish when players like RVP took that pressure away from him.

Sushi Master wrote:

Babun wrote:Kroos is 21. There're things you don't learn with time, quick thinking is a part of it. In final third, you can't play like in CM, therefore Wilshere>>> Ramsey in my books eco smile Wilshere is actually, CAM material, more than Ramsey. Second, Kroos has to compete with Robbery and Muller for a starting place eco smile If it isn't pressure then I don't know eco smile

Yeah, I know they're all in the same age bracket.

I don't know what games you've been watching, but Ramsey has been improving his passing a lot. Or you could just watch Arsenal vs ManU last season and see him completely own their midfield. Or the Wales matches where he's key. Kroos was shit last season and not that great starting off this one. I'm not writing off his talent because of 1 last season, same with Ramsey.

Wilshere might be better up front, but we need him in the back more which is why he's played there. Done a beautiful job, so you can't complain.

No doubts Kroos is under pressure. Hell, even more so than Ramsey or anyone, because he doesn't have a definite starting place. Playing for Bayern is right up there pressure wise as playing for Madrid, Milan etc.

babun1024 wrote:
Bayern didn't miss Robben against napoli or Man Sh!tty... Also, he has to win games, the pressure at Bayern is like at any big club he has to fill in for Muller or Robbery in three positions all the time and always perform Ramsey plays CAM only
Look, midfielders learn to make better decisions with more experience/ age but the speed at which they make those doesn't increase by a lot past 18-19y. It's a fundamental problem. Ramsey is cool when given space and time but put him in a cramped space in Bayern midfield for example and he'd simply suck (AM, CAM)
Wilshere wouldn't because he thinks a whole lot faster Why does he flourish with RVP? RVP draws defenders away, that's why= more space
Also, Kroos regarded as not so good He is regarded widely as Ballack's heir starting from u17 level (4 years passed...) I hated Bayern for benching him for one year, they almost ruined him

Sushi Master wrote:My whole point is that he has talent and you're too quick to write him off. He also had his leg broken, FFS. You don't come back from that after a few games. Give him time and and he'll be at Kroos level.

Iceman wrote:

babun1024 wrote:
Bayern didn't miss Robben against napoli or Man Sh!tty... Also, he has to win games, the pressure at Bayern is like at any big club he has to fill in for Muller or Robbery in three positions all the time and always perform Ramsey plays CAM only
Look, midfielders learn to make better decisions with more experience/ age but the speed at which they make those doesn't increase by a lot past 18-19y. It's a fundamental problem. Ramsey is cool when given space and time but put him in a cramped space in Bayern midfield for example and he'd simply suck (AM, CAM)
Wilshere wouldn't because he thinks a whole lot faster Why does he flourish with RVP? RVP draws defenders away, that's why= more space
Also, Kroos regarded as not so good He is regarded widely as Ballack's heir starting from u17 level (4 years passed...) I hated Bayern for benching him for one year, they almost ruined him

He has to win games, but he has a lot of great players around him that take the pressure away. If Bayern lose or don't get the results, Kroos wouldn't be the one criticized while at Arsenal, at least at the start of the season, it was all about how Ramsey is now back and should lead us to winning games thus he had more pressure.
Also, like Sushi said, last year Kroos was pretty much crap and that was not a result of anything. So to compare him to current Ramsey, who only recently started to truly come back to his pre-injury form, and assume that it's a fair comparison is not true. Compare them at their best, i.e. Ramsey in 09/10 season, not now.

And wasn't RVP playing at the start of the seasons? Why didn't Ramsey flourish then, since RVP was taking away defenders and all? Why did it take a month and a half before he started performing? It isn't coincidental that it was about the time that players like Koscielny, Arteta, Song, RVP and Gervinho started taking away the pressure from him and performing well.
As previously mentioned, Ramsey performed well in tight spaces in the 09/10 season. If you had bothered to see any of the videos, you'd see Ramsey getting out of situations where he was surrounded by 3, 4 and even 5 players at the same time. You'd see him attracting players towards him, and then playing a through ball that splits the defense wide open. He does not have poor decision making, he was only lacking in confidence.

Iceman wrote:Against Chelsea, was he given any room? No, not at all, but he twisted and turned, made space for himself and played a great through-ball for Gervinho which lead to our equalizer. That's a player who did well in tight spaces, not just open space.

Sushi Master wrote:Ramsey's put into a midfield stripped of it's 2 best players and in partnership with a guy he's never played with before (Arteta), as the key playmaker. Paired with an awful start that would shatter anyone's confidence, it makes sence he didn't start off too well

Wilshere is much more driven and thus reacts faster, I agreed to that already, but it's not like Ramsey has it off easy. Give him time to form chemistry because pre leg break he was doing mighty fine.

Another point is that Kroos has more liberty at Bayern. He has Schweini and Tymo/Gustavo covering for him, while at Arsenal there's only Song as midfield enforcers. Nevermind that Arsenal play against tougher opponents or that their squad is skill wise not as good as Bayern's. Kroos has it easier than Ramsey.

babun1024 wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:My whole point is that he has talent and you're too quick to write him off. He also had his leg broken, FFS. You don't come back from that after a few games. Give him time and and he'll be at Kroos level.

You and Fady don't understand my fundamental point. Decision making is something you improve with time, the speed at which you do those decision are given after 18-19y age.
You could only improve the speed at which decision are made by more chemistry, that's it! Got it by now?
Now, my point, Ramsey lacks in the green part whereas Wilshere doesn't

Iceman wrote:

babun1024 wrote:Kroos' isn't similar to Zidane or other greats, no need to compare now, we'll see at the end of his career.
What he has in common with the likes of Zidane and Iniesta is his role in the team. He starts off as CM deeper like

-------------DM--------------
-------Kroos----piggy-------

When he plays but as soon as he sees possibilities or starts a pass himself he moves up into CAM position:

------------DM-------------
-----------------piggy-----
-------Kroos---------------

Piggy does it as well like in the diagram above but Kroos is allowed to go even into wing position, as far as an inside forward (Muller). Like you could see in youtube videos, he has no problems to pass, cross or shoot with either foot from everywhere.
Zidane and Iniesta were/are hybrid CM/AM like him. Their ability to switch their role upon reading the game makes their influence on the teams play overall huge. Zidane had insane stamina and ball control so his job was more than influencig upper midfield only. Iniesta and Kroos share their responsibilities with Xavi and piggy respectively more

Iceman wrote:I said Ramshere. Their partnership is great. Dominated United in our 1-0 win last season.
Plus, I rate Wilshere higher than Kroos, and rightly so imo. I also don't think Ramsey is that far behind Kroos; He's just getting over his leg break that put him on the sidelines for over a year.

Read the upper part of my post. To play like that the player needs to be like live coach on the pitch. He has to tactically read the game to adapt his game appropriatly all the time. For that, you need an insane footballing brain, Ramshere don't have it at Kroos' level. If they meet each other (Arsenal vs. Bayern), piggy+Kroos will easily dominate your Ramshere

Well, you can't get the ball off of Wilshere anyway, so it's pretty easy to see who will dominate, and it ain't Piggy+Kroos.
Since when were we all able to judge a footballing brain anyway? How are you so able to tell that Wilshere and Ramsey aren't on the same level as Kroos? It's nothing that you have the ability to judge, and you cannot back it up either. It's just statement that is thrown around that makes no sense. Ramshere have a better footballing brain than Kroos. How would you rebuttal? By showing more videos? Not possible.

Also, are you even implying that Ramsey and Wilshere don't go to the wings or move around the pitch? lol. Look at the assists that Ramsey has got this season. Two of them (at least) were crosses/passes from the right side of the box, after he made a run behind the defense.
Look at Wilshere's assist vs Tottenham last year. Same thing; run from the wing and cross.

So if I just show videos, I can prove that Ramsey is just as good? Alright, I have no problem with that:

http://vimeo.com/31642165







Now, to do like everyone is doing and just start heaping so much praise on Ramsey based on the videos:

So what we can conclude is that Ramsey is much more complete than Kroos. Not only does he attack and create effectively, but he also defends better and works a lot harder for the team. Better footballing brain? Please, if it's all about posting some videos and praising then we can all do that. He can cross, he can shoot, he can pass, he can dribble, he can tackle and he runs his socks off. He adapts his game to the surroundings, whether he's expected to defend or attack. It's just amazing, and his shots are so great. He has this air of confidence and you never want him to get on the ball when he's around the box, no matter which foot he shoots with

Sushi Master wrote:Ramsey doesn't have that balls out attitude that Wilshere has, though.

Ramsey's passing is underrated. He's only 20 and is improving every game, just give him time. He's under immense pressure. Wilshere, Ramsey, Kroos are all on the same level, IMO, at least potential wise.

Iceman wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:Ramsey doesn't have that balls out attitude that Wilshere has, though.

Ramsey's passing is underrated. He's only 20 and is improving every game, just give him time. He's under immense pressure. Wilshere, Ramsey, Kroos are all on the same level, IMO, at least potential wise.

I completely agree +1

babun1024 wrote: Kroos is 21. There're things you don't learn with time, quick thinking is a part of it. In final third, you can't play like in CM, therefore Wilshere>>> Ramsey in my books Wilshere is actually, CAM material, more than Ramsey. Second, Kroos has to compete with Robbery and Muller for a starting place If it isn't pressure then I don't know

That's untrue. Ramsey was completely fine and very decisive in the final third before his injury. His injury, that kept him out for a whole year and nearly ruined his career, shook him up and took away his confidence (which is understandable). When without confidence, making decisions becomes really hard and that is what happened with Ramsey. Recently, he has been getting a lot better (Examples: his amazing, mouth-gaping, through ball for Walcott vs WBA, his pre-assist against Chelsea for our first equalizer), and all of that is down to confidence. To undermine the effect of that injury would be foolish.
Plus, if you remember, Kroos was deemed as a "not-so-good" player just a couple of seasons ago, so to say that Ramsey or Wilshere won't improve any more isn't so smart.

And no, competing with injured players is not as pressuring as having to lead club and country at the age of 19/20. Ramsey was thrown into the wild and was expected to make Arsenal win game after game. It's no wonder that he started to flourish when players like RVP took that pressure away from him.

Iceman wrote:

babun1024 wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:My whole point is that he has talent and you're too quick to write him off. He also had his leg broken, FFS. You don't come back from that after a few games. Give him time and and he'll be at Kroos level.

You and Fady don't understand my fundamental point. Decision making is something you improve with time, the speed at which you do those decision are given after 18-19y age.
You could only improve the speed at which decision are made by more chemistry, that's it! Got it by now?
Now, my point, Ramsey lacks in the green part whereas Wilshere doesn't

YOU don't understand what WE are saying mate.
Firstly, give me any sort of proof of that statement in green. Anything, just try to explain how you think that is the case.
Secondly, RAMSEY HAS BEEN RECOVERING FROM INJURY AND CONFIDENCE ISSUES. So, he takes a lot longer to decide because he does not want to make any wrong actions as he has not been confident. It's not about the speed of making the passes, it's about being confident enough to decide to make them and play the passes. He would know what to do, but he wouldn't be confident of his decision so he would stutter on the ball. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE 09/10 SEASON. You can see from the clips there that Ramsey always makes quick decisions. When he was inside the box against Bolton, he made a quick turn and shot. When he ran at the defense against the Scotland U-21s and dribbled past one, then the other, and then found the ball at his feet and scored...that's not a player who lacks speed of decision making.

Sushi Master wrote:Ramsey's put into a midfield stripped of it's 2 best players and in partnership with a guy he's never played with before (Arteta), as the key playmaker. Paired with an awful start that would shatter anyone's confidence, it makes sence he didn't start off too well

Wilshere is much more driven and thus reacts faster, I agreed to that already, but it's not like Ramsey has it off easy. Give him time to form chemistry because pre leg break he was doing mighty fine.

Another point is that Kroos has more liberty at Bayern. He has Schweini and Tymo/Gustavo covering for him, while at Arsenal there's only Song as midfield enforcers. Nevermind that Arsenal play against tougher opponents or that their squad is skill wise not as good as Bayern's. Kroos has it easier than Ramsey.

Iceman wrote:

babun1024 wrote:
Bayern didn't miss Robben against napoli or Man Sh!tty... Also, he has to win games, the pressure at Bayern is like at any big club he has to fill in for Muller or Robbery in three positions all the time and always perform Ramsey plays CAM only
Look, midfielders learn to make better decisions with more experience/ age but the speed at which they make those doesn't increase by a lot past 18-19y. It's a fundamental problem. Ramsey is cool when given space and time but put him in a cramped space in Bayern midfield for example and he'd simply suck (AM, CAM)
Wilshere wouldn't because he thinks a whole lot faster Why does he flourish with RVP? RVP draws defenders away, that's why= more space
Also, Kroos regarded as not so good He is regarded widely as Ballack's heir starting from u17 level (4 years passed...) I hated Bayern for benching him for one year, they almost ruined him

He has to win games, but he has a lot of great players around him that take the pressure away. If Bayern lose or don't get the results, Kroos wouldn't be the one criticized while at Arsenal, at least at the start of the season, it was all about how Ramsey is now back and should lead us to winning games thus he had more pressure.
Also, like Sushi said, last year Kroos was pretty much crap and that was not a result of anything. So to compare him to current Ramsey, who only recently started to truly come back to his pre-injury form, and assume that it's a fair comparison is not true. Compare them at their best, i.e. Ramsey in 09/10 season, not now.

And wasn't RVP playing at the start of the seasons? Why didn't Ramsey flourish then, since RVP was taking away defenders and all? Why did it take a month and a half before he started performing? It isn't coincidental that it was about the time that players like Koscielny, Arteta, Song, RVP and Gervinho started taking away the pressure from him and performing well.
As previously mentioned, Ramsey performed well in tight spaces in the 09/10 season. If you had bothered to see any of the videos, you'd see Ramsey getting out of situations where he was surrounded by 3, 4 and even 5 players at the same time. You'd see him attracting players towards him, and then playing a through ball that splits the defense wide open. He does not have poor decision making, he was only lacking in confidence.

Against Chelsea, was he given any room? No, not at all, but he twisted and turned, made space for himself and played a great through-ball for Gervinho which lead to our equalizer. That's a player who did well in tight spaces, not just open space.