Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

It's his trademark, just like Trump being orange. They know they look ridiculous, but they're recognizable.

I remember reading a journalist's account of Boris actually having been caught with decent hair at home, once or twice, and they apparently saw him go to a mirror, and mess up his own hair so he looked like an idiot, before he answered the door.

VivaStPauli wrote:It's his trademark, just like Trump being orange. They know they look ridiculous, but they're recognizable.

I remember reading a journalist's account of Boris actually having been caught with decent hair at home, once or twice, and they apparently saw him go to a mirror, and mess up his own hair so he looked like an idiot, before he answered the door.

Yes. He messes up the hair on purpose. He found out he gets away with all kinds of shit if he plays a clownish character.

On purpose ffs i kick him out of the messy hair council

His strategy is to look like a fool so people give him a break, this is both clever and dumb

Let us all remember

Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: https://t.co/fmhcfTunbm

— David Cameron (@David_Cameron) May 4, 2015

I blame Nick Clegg, personally. Piece of shit.

British elites indeed would like to stay in EU to get cheap labour so that they can get richer. The capitalist class love more labour .

The top echelons of society ; doctors , engineers , business administrators , actors none of them are affected by the influx of immigrants so as long as they aren't affected they think what is wrong with these people who want to leave.

The blue collar worker loses his job and is replaced by the immigrant who is ready to break a bone for employment thanks to socialism induced poverty in their countries .

Is British working class in a good state ? Do they have enough jobs ?

I'm over getting a sensible outcome. Bring on No Deal and see what happens. The UK government is a self-serving mess and the more I dislike them, the less I want to see a deal happen.

My 2021 prediction: No Deal Brexit fucks up the UK and the Queen dies.

Adit wrote:British elites indeed would like to stay in EU to get cheap labour so that they can get richer. The capitalist class love more labour .

The top echelons of society ; doctors , engineers , business administrators , actors none of them are affected by the influx of immigrants so as long as they aren't affected they think what is wrong with these people who want to leave.

The blue collar worker loses his job and is replaced by the immigrant who is ready to break a bone for employment thanks to socialism induced poverty in their countries .

Is British working class in a good state ? Do they have enough jobs ?

Never thought you'd become a victim of Murdoch propaganda

@topic:
Farewell UK for good, hopefully.

Unique wrote:we should just leave. deal or no deal as soon as we are gone others will follow.

I doubt that.

Wonder what's up with Unique these days, hit me up if you read this

Art Morte wrote:I'm over getting a sensible outcome. Bring on No Deal and see what happens. The UK government is a self-serving mess and the more I dislike them, the less I want to see a deal happen.

My 2021 prediction: No Deal Brexit fucks up the UK and the Queen dies.

The British people have been deceived. Cmon. I was hoping for a 2nd referendum all this time.

What happens to Scotland and N.Ireland though? They voted remain

The people had a 2nd ref, it was the election and Boris won by a landslide.

Btw good read by a eurosceptic turned remainer (for those that have the time): Brexit, was it worth it?

Btw we just had a bunch of polls conducted in November, basically "do you want to stay in the eu, yes or no" and 87% said yes, 5% unsure.

That surely must be the best result of all member states.

The UK has become a warning tale for other states. I think in Italy too the Italexit crowd thinned and now it's just anti-Euro. We'll see if that changes if they're successful.

The real warning tale about the UK is how their government got taken over by selfish politicians who only care for their own careers and wealth. And they took it over by lying and then lying some more (about Brexit). It's kinda scary how you can get 52% of the people to believe in those lies and think that the EU is somehow holding the UK back.

Theresa May was still a somewhat sensible prime minister, who I'd trust to try and do the right thing by the people. But Boris Johnson and the Tory MPs who back him the most are only in it for personal gain. If there really is to be a No Deal Brexit, I reckon Boris and his gang will try and turn the UK into a corporate tax haven for two purposes: to aggressively compete with the EU and to enable the rich Tories and their wealthy sponsors to get richer still.

Babun wrote:

Adit wrote:British elites indeed would like to stay in EU to get cheap labour so that they can get richer. The capitalist class love more labour .

The top echelons of society ; doctors , engineers , business administrators , actors none of them are affected by the influx of immigrants so as long as they aren't affected they think what is wrong with these people who want to leave.

The blue collar worker loses his job and is replaced by the immigrant who is ready to break a bone for employment thanks to socialism induced poverty in their countries .

Is British working class in a good state ? Do they have enough jobs ?

Never thought you'd become a victim of Murdoch propaganda

@topic:
Farewell UK for good, hopefully.

I will be happy to acknowledge if I am wrong but isn't unemployment among the blue collar workers one of the biggest reason for brexit that everyone want to put under the carpet and paint every one as racists ?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The people had a 2nd ref, it was the election and Boris won by a landslide.

Btw good read by a eurosceptic turned remainer (for those that have the time): Brexit, was it worth it?

The election really wasn't a second ref. Iabour was basically taken over by far left politicians and nobody likes far left or far right.

Adit wrote:

Babun wrote:

Adit wrote:British elites indeed would like to stay in EU to get cheap labour so that they can get richer. The capitalist class love more labour .

The top echelons of society ; doctors , engineers , business administrators , actors none of them are affected by the influx of immigrants so as long as they aren't affected they think what is wrong with these people who want to leave.

The blue collar worker loses his job and is replaced by the immigrant who is ready to break a bone for employment thanks to socialism induced poverty in their countries .

Is British working class in a good state ? Do they have enough jobs ?

Never thought you'd become a victim of Murdoch propaganda

@topic:
Farewell UK for good, hopefully.

I will be happy to acknowledge if I am wrong but isn't unemployment among the blue collar workers one of the biggest reason for brexit that everyone want to put under the carpet and paint every one as racists ?

With UK going out of EU:
1. British Pound is already less worth (from 1.48€ to 1.08€) and may even go south after the brexit. Who suffers the most? People with little pensions and blue collar workers. Their salary will be worth much less.
2. Due to GB importing lots of stuff from the EU, the imposed tarifs would mean everything from bread to banana and potato will get more expensive. Who'll suffer the most? The people with little money or fixed low income, you know where it is going (pensioners and the blue collar workers). On top of the lower salary worth, they'll pay more for the everyday things.
3. With no institution to dictate worker standards, the tory gouvernment can make worker rights similar to the US for "more competition" of course which means you basically don't have rights, can be fired for any reason, the salary isn't fixed etc. The EU guarantied a minimal standard for the workers in all of its member states.
4. The far right propaganda machine: migrants steal our jobs, we're paid less. UK is in global competition like any other advanced country. Companies can't pay over the top salaries for the average jobs, they have to earn money. The other countries are much more developed than before (China for example). So you have a blue collar worker who asks for a high salary even though the end product wouldn't be profitable anymore. They hire someone for less (a migrant in your example) to survive. If they're deprived of the work force, they'll relocate to a country where the work force is cheaper then the low paid jobs won't exist in the UK anymore. Migrants as newcomers always create more demand because their basic needs aren't covered by their parents house or whatever connections the local people have. In conclusion, migrants lift up the economy and create more jobs. To be paid more one has to learn a skill and to be involved in a product or a service which is actually profitable for the company to pay the guys the salary they ask for. You' aren't paid for simply studying and sitting on a chair afterwards.
5. Every single standard institution in the EU will have to be recreated in the UK again. They'll have to set and to abide by the standards for each product which is super expensive for a single country like UK. If UK cheaps out and creates cheapskate institutions with crappy standards, the EU won't accept them, UK won't be able to sell their stuff to their neighbours, waste of tax money.
There's a lot more but I can't be bothered.
Most of the UK' problems are house made. The EU were made scapegoats for the previous UK gouvernments not caring or developing any industry or services in the rural areas, everything was centralised in London. Well, people in those areas are/were fed up and blamed the EU, all while EU help funds were the only directed investments in the rural Wales to get them out of the sh*thole, for example. They even had the audacity to ask the UK gouvernment whether they'll pay the missing EU invesments in the future
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54374532

Brexit is bad for the UK and the EU, MUCH worse for UK, still bad for EU.

The UK is pretty much ok though Babun.  Since they kept their central bank intact by maintaining the pound sterling, there is very little to no fiscal impact.

Fairly sure the pound will rebound.  Biden and the US have an enormous incentive to boost the UK and its economy... which they will with very favorable bilateral trade agreements.  

The HUGE factor to UK's advantage is the national debt to GDP ratio which stands at around 85% (maybe more with new stimulus).  That is 15%+ better than all of its European counterparts.  Here's a list:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt

This means that the UK is in a far better position to help its economy post-EU.  It could bolster its currency, subsidize tariffs, etc.

Btw, if the EU imposes tariffs, UK will retaliate in a big way, which isn't inconsequential.  Europe (and the world really) relies on the UK financial systems to facilitate a lot of things.  EU cannot easily or quickly transfer that to its markets.  It would be an enormous blunder for the EU to act recklessly here.

I don't like Brexit.  But the UK can handle it with some pain.  It's a bigger blow long term to the EU.

^ I think you're being too optimistic about the UK's fortunes. I'm yet to hear of tangible benefits that Brexit will bring. Everything's pointing to the opposite direction.

Ps. Covid crisis pushed the UK's debt above 100% of GDP.

sportsczy wrote:
Btw, if the EU imposes tariffs, UK will retaliate in a big way, which isn't inconsequential.  Europe (and the world really) relies on the UK financial systems to facilitate a lot of things.  EU cannot easily or quickly transfer that to its markets.  It would be an enormous blunder for the EU to act recklessly here.

UK cannot retailate in a manner the EU can, the leverage is different. EU can stop the import of any product to UK, the country will crumble the next day (basic needs, medicaments etc.).
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/06/09/uk-dangerously-reliant-food-imports-must-invest-self-sufficiency-bow-group/#

sportsczy wrote:The UK is pretty much ok though Babun.  Since they kept their central bank intact by maintaining the pound sterling, there is very little to no fiscal impact.

They'll be ok for sure. Life goes on no matter what way OK

sportsczy wrote:
Fairly sure the pound will rebound.  Biden and the US have an enormous incentive to boost the UK and its economy... which they will with very favorable bilateral trade agreements.  

The US, China, Japan or any country with a backbone would be stupid to accept the old EU tarifs with London. Why should they if the leverage has changed? I expect the US to be the most aggressive in defending its interests. Chlorinated chicken welcome, lower worker standards to the US welcome
If UK was defacto US' b*tch before the exit they'll do 100% whatever the US wants afterwards, for their leverage is hugely unfavourable towards them.

sportsczy wrote:
The HUGE factor to UK's advantage is the national debt to GDP ratio which stands at around 85% (maybe more with new stimulus).  That is 15%+ better than all of its European counterparts.  Here's a list:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt

Most of the UK economy is service based, they produce very little. With them being out of the EU, they'll lose their EU bank passporting. Read here for more info:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/brexit-passporting-rights-eea-explained-what-does-it-mean-banks-economy-pound-euro-a8065131.html
London will lose a big part of its meaning as a financial capital in the world, the city won't be any different to wall street or Shanghai from the point of view of EU. Some of the banking will be relocated to Paris and Frankfurt but let's be honest, they aren't good enough as financial capital to replace London. What'll happen is most of the activity will go towards the wall street and to the east. A big blow to the European banking system as a whole.

The GDP ratio is a snapshot..

You're overestimating their reliance on the EU.  Although significant, the US, India, and China are more important to them.  If anything, the EU was more reliant on the UK.  So it's the EU that must be careful with how they handle things.

Keep in mind that the EU exports 318 billion euros to the UK and only imports 193 billion.  So the UK actually has the leverage here.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_European_Union

All this pretty much ends btw once the US threatens the EU with retaliatory sanctions if they sanction the UK... which the US will.

All this posturing is hot air by politicians.  The EU and UK need to keep things in good standing for a lot of reasons. None of the threats will lead to anything.

1. How are the US, India (lol, for real?) and China more important to the UK when half their trade is with the EU?

2. Of course No Deal would hurt the EU, too, but those EU exports to the UK are needed in the UK, it's not like they buy food, medicine, supplies and raw materials for fun. They need them for living standards and their businesses to operate.

3. No one is talking about the EU sanctioning the UK, just standard WTO trading terms that the EU has with all countries that it doesn't have a trade deal with. The United States are not going to sanction the EU for trading on WTO terms with one more country.

I, too, used to think until quite recently that "all this posturing will not lead to anything" and there would be a sensible deal, but now it's getting so close to the end of the year and the message from both sides is pessimistic, so No Deal is looking like a very real possibility.

Yep I think every Brexit talking point is failing:
-still no money for NHS
-no solution for Irish border
-re-negotiated trade deals are unfavorable
-migrants unwelcome, which means no one to do the dirty work british people aren't interested in for minimum wage
-the EU is a huge market and UK won't be better off trading with small economies under more restrictive rules (re the narrative that "we will be better off trading with the rest of the world")

and the EU budget is 1% of the EU's actual GDP. So the hole that will be left by the UK can be easily filled.

Myesyats wrote:
-migrants unwelcome, which means no one to do the dirty work british people aren't interested in for minimum wage

They'll be replaced by people from India or other former colonies. Problem is that kind of attitude won't increase UK's competiveness compared to the rest of the world. You need people with various skillsets to choose your work force from. If most of the migrants are low skilled people and the rest follows the normal Gauß IQ distribution then the total of skilled AND hard-working people will decrease (competition is essential to make people work hard). Someone has to pay for everything with their taxes from high paying jobs.

Myesyats wrote:
-the EU is a huge market and UK won't be better off trading with small economies under more restrictive rules (re the narrative that "we will be better off trading with the rest of the world")

India for example will ask for more freedom of movement of their people to UK. No cherry picking afterwards Then it'll be the same story like with Polish migrants but with less control than before

Myesyats wrote:
and the EU budget is 1% of the EU's actual GDP. So the hole that will be left by the UK can be easily filled.

Doesn't work that way, UK has got London as one of the global centres for banking systems, the British military is still formidable and a nuclear power, 60 million potent consumers are cut off by BS tarifs. No matter how you look at it, it is bad for both parties. Bad for the EU, MUCH worse for UK.

sportsczy wrote:You're overestimating their reliance on the EU. Although significant, the US, India, and China are more important to them. If anything, the EU was more reliant on the UK. So it's the EU that must be careful with how they handle things.

Keep in mind that the EU exports 318 billion euros to the UK and only imports 193 billion. So the UK actually has the leverage here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_European_Union

All this pretty much ends btw once the US threatens the EU with retaliatory sanctions if they sanction the UK... which the US will.

All this posturing is hot air by politicians. The EU and UK need to keep things in good standing for a lot of reasons. None of the threats will lead to anything.

I understand US will support UK but there's no need for consessions. UK is dependant, US could dictate them anything and they'd have to follow. No deal = WTO terms, perfectly legal. The US itself can't impose its tarifs or chlorinated chicken on EU as of now so no, they aren't that powerful and they would rather leave UK be than fight with the EU over tarifs.

Yeah totally, pretty sure brexit was mainly fueled by nationalism and they'll be surprised if they actually won't be able to control their own borders once they're free of EU and as you say influx of indians etc will get worse. I used to have a nationalistic overview on things as well as a young man, but looking back I was so fucking stupid and thanks to GL mainly I have done a 180 and I guess I could be considered as far from a nationalist as I can be currently, especially in my climate where many people are catholic & conservative.

I wonder how much has Brexit cost the UK in total. Remember at the start they calculated the process was costing them 300 million per week.

Brexit was fueled not just by nationalism but by xenophobia, quite specifically.

The English, like other people too, want less immigrants, which is an attitude that's rather rich given their history of occupying the whole world. Of course, Brexit doesn't mean less immigrants but nvm.