700+ dead in Hajj stampede

Well, I don't know is there much to discuss here, but we have threads for lesser disasters.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34346449

At least 717 people taking part in the Hajj pilgrimage have been killed in a stampede near the Islamic holy city of Mecca, officials in Saudi Arabia say.

Another 863 people were injured in the incident at Mina, which occurred as two million pilgrims were taking part in the Hajj's last major rite.

They converge on Mina to throw stones at pillars representing the devil.

I guess the obvious question is, why did Allah let all these followers of his die when going on a quest to worship him.........

Chronic criminal negligence by the Saudi authorities.

Do you know, nearly 5000 people have died in Hajj related accidents and violence in last 20 years???

Allah didn't keep a rickety crane hanging in storm wind, did he???

Hajj/Umrah can be very dangerous during peak times (Eid al fitr, eid al adha, last 10 nights of ramadan), some people take it to extreme levels when they're performing it, if you don't keep up with the pace of the people around you and potentially trip/fall, then so long, people will step on you without a whit or care. I performed Umrah 15-16 times throughout my life, and the best advice i can give is to pick your times and dates, the best times are pre-Fajr to perform, rarely anyone is in the Haram.

Speaking of, anyone saw the Haram expansion construction project fall? Its very graphic (very very graphic) you can find it on youtube, but i advise you to consider before watching it (people getting splattered by debris, blood everywhere etc)

El Shaarawy wrote:if you don't keep up with the pace of the people around you and potentially trip/fall, then so long, people will step on you without a whit or care.

the irony in that  I'd like to know what the thinking behind this is. I'm not going to pretend to know why people go to Hajj to perform Umrah, but I would imagine it includes absolving ones sins. So how can people go to such a sacred place and pray to be good and NOT help someone if they had fallen down.

I'd also like to know the revenues generated by people going to Hajj and who that money goes to.

RIP to the 717. I had a lot of family who went to Hajj this year and was worried sick when I heard the news. Thankfully they were in their hotel when this happened.

Like a said, there is no mandate that says you have to go during eid, end of ramadan etc. I did Umrah a lot of times, never saw anything nasty as that happen. Its just that some people are just blind zealots

Imagine being an advanced Alien race observing humanity ffs

People Speechless.

Awful news.


Just heard that the Saudi higher up was blaming Africans for this

It seems a bit tasteless to make this thread about nearly a thousand people dying, just in order to have a pop at their beliefs, tbh.

El Shaarawy wrote:Like a said, there is no mandate that says you have to go during eid, end of ramadan etc. I did Umrah a lot of times, never saw anything nasty as that happen. Its just that some people are just blind zealots

Hajj has a specific time frame. Since the incident happened during Hajj, I think flexible schedule of umrah (which has fewer attendees anyway) isn't addressing the issue.

DuringTheWar wrote:It seems a bit tasteless to make this thread about nearly a thousand people dying, just in order to have a pop at their beliefs, tbh.

He isn't wrong as tasteless as you may think it is.

Don't call me James wrote:

DuringTheWar wrote:It seems a bit tasteless to make this thread about nearly a thousand people dying, just in order to have a pop at their beliefs, tbh.

He isn't wrong as tasteless as you may think it is.

Wrong about what? That their beliefs are wrong ?

Ok, so ? Not like I'm going to go to a Muslim funeral and call everyone delusional just because I'm right.

To be completely honest here, while I don't think it's amusing that people die, I do find it amusing that people die when worshiping their god. I think each and every religion on earth is a man-made thing and I would just be curious to hear from a religious muslim their explanation as to how come may scores of Allah's worshipers die when carrying out their devotion to him. That just seems amusingly contradictory to me.

I've known people that probably make this pilgrimage -or will at some point - and it really, really, wouldn't amuse me in the slightest if they died worshipping their God. I think its a sign that I'm not a psychopath.

Yeah I can see the irony, and I think most people here know of my beliefs (or rather lack thereof), but "amusing" isn't the word I'd used.

It's first and foremost tragic, and just another, repeated evidence, that humans get stupider, the larger the group they are in is. Mass panics just happen.

Of course when you're embroiled in a heated debate with theocrates, this should give them a headache. But it's hardly the point. The point is that profiteering and lack of oversight causes accidents. That's why you have oversight, building codes etc, etc, and countries wishing to better their economic standing shouldn't take shortcuts in the safety department. Same thing with China's mines, which have nothing to do with religion.

So a heartfelt RIP to the poor souls that died. Even if they think their beliefs are stupid. I know too many I dearly love who hold stupid beliefs to judge people based on it.

DuringTheWar wrote:I've known people that probably make this pilgrimage -or will at some point - and it really, really, wouldn't amuse me in the slightest if they died worshipping their God. I think its a sign that I'm not a psychopath.

Obviously it wouldn't amuse anyone who personally knew any people who died in an incident like this one.

But what I'm really after is any sort of explanation as to:

people going on a quest to worship their deity, i.e. they have the utmost belief in their deity + scores of these devoted people die on this quest = ???

How do they explain a tragedy like this?

"Allah was just having a bad day." ?

I mean, I'd suppose if there was one moment in your life when your god protected you, it would be when you're on a big quest to worship him, eh...

Wouldn't that make him egoistic? If he protects people from something which appeases him but let them die where it doesn't? Which in return is something that isn't god-like nor the god they worship?

Art Morte wrote:

DuringTheWar wrote:I've known people that probably make this pilgrimage -or will at some point - and it really, really, wouldn't amuse me in the slightest if they died worshipping their God. I think its a sign that I'm not a psychopath.

Obviously it wouldn't amuse anyone who personally knew any people who died in an incident like this one.

But what I'm really after is any sort of explanation as to:

people going on a quest to worship their deity, i.e. they have the utmost belief in their deity + scores of these devoted people die on this quest = ???

How do they explain a tragedy like this?

"Allah was just having a bad day." ?

I mean, I'd suppose if there was one moment in your life when your god protected you, it would be when you're on a big quest to worship him, eh...

They probably see it as a favour that their "God" didn't save them.

In their minds, they will be on an express train to heaven, with 72 vergins, rivers made of milk, and everything for a great eternal life waiting for them.

I was raised in an Islamic country, had plenty of courses on the religion as well as Quran itself, and this stuff are promised for people when they die (Provided they did pass the test in this world).

Does anyone expect anything less from the Saudi Government who are mainly to blame for this.

As long as they keep earning money from making the Holy site into a tourist attraction and by charging ridiculously high prices to visit, they won't care a single bit.

If you look at the cumulative figure of deaths and injuries due to similar incidents from the 90s. It adds up to over 5000.

And this will continue.

Thank Viva for showing some humanity, even if I (obviously) disagree with your beliefs. Absolutely ridiculous that 700 people died and there are people here trying to start a discussion on the problem of evil.

Aside from the fact the argument is actually very weak, can we at least show some sympathy? If you want to reignite the 150 page god thread, discuss that question there.

Just heard the father of one of my grade 7/8 schoolmates (in the class next to ours, back in Iran) was one of the victims .

He was a doctor, University professor in dental department.