Re: Klopp sack watch - Liverpool Edition

by McAgger Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:18 am

I can't believe I agree with everything RedAlert jut said.

And I am still disgusted with all of your *bleep* still complaining about anything to do with Klopp. This man is the best that's happened to our club since Rafa, you have to be blind not to see it.

by Sri Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:31 am

+1 RA

by Art Morte Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:57 am

You can point out how ever much you want that the squad isn't great - which is true - but it is better than what Klopp is getting out of it right now.

In our last seven PL games against teams who are currently 19th, 18th, 17th, 12th, 9th, 6th and 2nd in the table, we have scored a grand total of five goals. And it's not like we've been unlucky not to score.

And listen, no one's asking Klopp to be fired. No need to dramatize this. But it is a worry that he's not getting better performances out of the squad - for it is not this bad - and getting criticized for it is justified.

Our defence has been mostly all right and I don't remember a game where we would have been overwhelmed in midfield. But our attack is just as clueless as under Rodgers.

We have anything between 3 and 5 players standing with their back to goal in the final third while we're cycling possession between the defenders and a CM. How can you have good build-up then? Anything to up to 4 guys end up standing in the same forward line almost at the edge of the penalty area. How do you have space to make effective runs in behind the defence when you have less than 20 metres to go from standstill to beating the offside line to accelerating away from the defenders? And when we have possession in the dangerous areas (the final third) it's always just a couple of guys at a time playing with each other. No runs from the rest, just some casual jogging about that although theoretically makes you available for a pass, you'll need to produce an absolute world-class piece of skill to make something happen there, because the defenders are just so close to you, because your movement has been just so slow and easy to track. Not enough movement, not enough urgency, no clear idea how to create chances or attack as a team.

There's no way I can accept that this squad isn't capable of better attacking play than five goals in seven games. Instruct the attacking midfielders to drop deeper, so they can actually face the goal when receiving the ball and have more space to make runs when the ball is carried forward. Make more runs in attack even if you're not the likeliest player to receive the pass. Don't just stand and watch what two guys are doing. Spaces and passes can open up surprisingly when you just start making runs. You'd certainly find more space than trying to play the millionth one-two with a guy who is standing with his back to goal and surrounded by three defenders.

Okay, so I'm frustrated. But there's no way our attacking problems are all down to quality of the players and none down to the manager.

by Lord Spencer Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:33 am

Off with his 'ead bounce

by Unique Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:03 pm

Red Alert wrote:I am so done with these people. Relax. You all have no idea. How is this on Klopp?

The whole squad is disjointed and just literally shit. We "lost" Suarez and Sterling, remember? Honestly we went 5 steps back with Rodgers appointment. Sick of people not understanding ANYTHING. Especially that clown "Unique" who think's he's a coach / manager / some sort of hero when he has NO CLUE. He boasts on about the same shit EVERY *bleep* WEEK. "How do Liverpool lose to West Ham when they're better than them?" MAYBE BECAUSE THE WHOLE SITUATION AT THE CLUB HAS BEEN SHIT FOR YEARSSSSSSSSSSS. MANAGEMENT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM HAS BEEN TERRIBLE FOR ALMOST A DECADE NOW. Yeah, FSG saved the club, and we "owe" them but they've done *bleep* all on the pitch. It's not their fault, they're just IGNORANT about the game. They decide to hire Dalglish, to back him, only to sack him AFTER A YEAR. Then they get Rodgers, BACK HIM TO THE ABSOLUTE MAX, when he's highest accomplishment was keeping a team in the top flight ffs. He was no better than Dalglish. We might aswell had signed Big Sam / Pardiola.

Seriously. We had no philosophy / no system in place after Suarez.

Look at this squad.

I mean, LOOK AT IT. PROPERLY ANALYSE IT.

There's a reason the team look like school boys on the pitch. They players are so disjointed / out of balance they're all out of place.

We've finished below TOTTENHAM FROM ALL TEAMS 5 TIMES IN THE LAST SIX YEARS. TOTTENHAM.

Rodgers had over 130m+ (on "losing" Suarez and Sterling alone, he spent almost double that in his tenure) and built THIS squad.

I MEAN, LOOK AT THE FINAL THIRD.

Benteke signed for 30m+. ARE YOU SERIOUS? YOU LITERALLY SOLD / DIDN'T GIVE ANDY CARROLL THE CHANCE BECAUSE HE WAS A "TARGET MAN" / AND HE WAS A BETTER PLAYER. HE ATLEAST ACTUALLY TRIED 100% EVERY GAME. FFS. Don't get me wrong, Benteke is a good player. He'd save a lot of teams from relegation *cough* Chelsea *cough* with teams that use target man / actually built their final third around him. Signing him from Aston Villa was a loss-loss situation for both clubs. I mean, for a team that thrived on fast, vibrating, attacking football, you literally signed a *bleep* tree up top. The amount of times the ball came off his shin / he moaned like a little bitch was embarrassing. Great signing. Really, well *bleep* done.

He did the same shit with Lambert.

Firminho. Great player, but he's looked out of place. Why? Because Liverpool decides to play a mix of direct *bleep* football to try and adapt to Benteke. Look at him in the Bundesliga where he actually had a team that knew how to operate in the final third. The only times Firminho has looked good is in when Benteke was not on the pitch. Coincidence?

Lallana for 25 *bleep* mil pounds. Yeah, it was 2 years ago whatever. He has NO FINAL BALL / NO END PRODUCT AT ALL. He's literally a glorified Stewart Downing with fancy tricks but only really gets into the team for chasing the ball / pressing ffs. I mean, 1 goal and what, 2 assists in all of 2015, no?

Markovic. 20m for kid only to not give him a proper chance. Well in ladsssssss

This is my biggest issue with FSG too. If you were waiting on Klopp to get over this sabbatical why give Rodgers last summers spending kitty?

AND MILNER. OH MY GOD MILNER PISSES ME OFF SO MUCH. Milner is on 150k a week. You read that right. James Milner is Liverpool's highest paid player. James Milner. HE HAS NO X FACTOR. HE'S NOT WORLD CLASS. He's literally a passenger / makes world class players tick / consistent hard worker / glorified Joe Allen. I have no idea WHY we signed him when we already had Emre Can / Jordan Henderson in midfield as well. They essentially do the same shit. In fact, they're both better because they're actually you know, proper midfielders??????? We literally have NO CREATIVITY from midfield. So we sign a winger to play there. Logic? Rodgers 101.

I am so done with fellow Liverpool fans. We are not a "top" team anymore. Accept the fact that you're mediocre. Klopp is doing his best with the squad he's assembled. He's only human after all. Give him time. He's been at the club for THREE MONTHS. THREE MONTHS. He has A LOT of work to do to fix the clubs previous messes. He hasn't even had a transfer window yet. Hell, I doubt he's going to sign much this January either.

And the worst part?????????????? Majority of the people calling for his head actually wanted delusional Brendan Rodgers to actually STAY. The same people defending the man that had us REBUILDING FOR 4 YEARS (YOU KNOW STAGNATING THE WHOLE CLUB AND EVERYONE IN IT) IS NOT GIVING SOMEONE (A PROPER WORLD CLASS COACH) A CHANCE AFTER 3 MONTHS. THE *bleep* IRONY. SO DONE>

when Rodgers was getting these results and performances you put all the blame at his feet now your man klopp is getting worst results and performances you say it's nothing to do with him. Let me ask you this. How is it tony pulis can take a very poor west brom squad and make them one of the hardest teams in the lge to beat. Yet klopp can't seem to stop Liverpool from being out played by teams like Newcastle with a team full of international players to pick from. Look what par dew can do with palace who have 2 good players at best. And that leister city squad is world class. Your problem is you run your mouth off about klopp and you don't like it because he is not what you thought he would be.

by rwo power Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:05 pm

Difference - Rodgers got the players and bought them for whatever system he had in mind. Kloppo has to live with what he got from Rodgers and it doesn't fit his ideas at all.

by Sri Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:30 pm

Doubt Rodgers had much of a clue about any 'system'

by ExtremistEnigma Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:13 pm

jibers wrote:How long do you think it will take for him to bring in 'his' players? It all depends on the scouting and other teams not picking them because let's be honest here, Liverpool won't be on anyones Christmas list. Klopp has got a very difficul job and I think Pool fans are still acting like this is the late 80s.

I never thought Brendan should have been sacked, people thnk having more money = better players. Get a good team around him first.

Completely agree.

Don't call me James wrote:I can't believe I agree with everything RedAlert jut said.

And I am still disgusted with all of your *bleep* still complaining about anything to do with Klopp. This man is the best that's happened to our club since Rafa, you have to be blind not to see it.

I am sorry, but this is completely preposterous. Let Klopp accomplish something first at the club before we get ahead of ourselves. Laughing

The thing that is wrong with Liverpool is that we are a mediocre club with a midtable mentality that has a lot of spending power. That is the biggest problem. Every year, we are two taking one step forward and two steps back. The inner workings of the club need to change.

That is why, we need to overachieve, and overachieve quick. With a reputed manager like Klopp at the helm, hopefully we will be able to bring in top talent at the club. If not, every year, we will just be bringing in average, dross players that will be push us down to mediocrity even further because I have no faith in our scouting system.

When Klopp took over Dortmund, nothing much was expected of him and because of the financial constraints, Dortmund had to actually give two shits before buying a player. In Klopp's final season, they were in a better position financially and that resulted in them buying average players to fill up the numbers.

That is what Liverpool has been doing all this while; just filling up the numbers instead of actually buying quality.

by Adit Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:18 pm

srigooner wrote:Doubt Rodgers had much of a clue about any 'system'

His system got them to second. The best that have reached in 8 years.

I know it's the new fashion to discredit managers and change history.

by Sri Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:08 pm

Adit wrote:
srigooner wrote:Doubt Rodgers had much of a clue about any 'system'

His system got them to second. The best that have reached in 8 years.

I know it's the new fashion to discredit managers and change history.

Nope. His lack of system was why they didn't win the title, despite the brilliance in attack largely driven by SAS.

I am not one for fads. I believe in credit where it is due. Rodgers can't hide behind the pretense of one good season, which wasn't even down to him.

by Adit Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:16 pm

srigooner wrote:
Adit wrote:
srigooner wrote:Doubt Rodgers had much of a clue about any 'system'

His system got them to second. The best that have reached in 8 years.

I know it's the new fashion to discredit managers and change history.

Nope. His lack of system was why they didn't win the title, despite the brilliance in attack largely driven by SAS.

I am not one for fads. I believe in credit where it is due. Rodgers can't hide behind the pretense of one good season, which wasn't even down to him.

Why isn't down to him? Why is the managers credits taken away in this specific case?

If Arsenal win the league it is because of Ozil right? Nothing to do with Wenger as per your logic. Because using the same logic Wenger's lack of system is the reason Arsenal didn't win it for almost a decade.

by Art Morte Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:20 pm

Rodgers deserves some credit for the '14 season, at least when things started to click he kept them clicking. But it's not like we were a success all season long, we were 5th at the half-way point in 19th gameweek and had that crazy 11 game win-streak in the second-half of the season.

But thinking about it in hindsight and seeing what a player Suarez continues to be, you gotta say that putting Suarez in any of the current top teams and they should be challenging for the title. The credit for that season should be 50-50 between Suarez (and Sturridge) and Rodgers.

by Adit Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:31 pm

I remember Suarez under Daglish.

He had average end Product, wasn't even close to the finisher he is now either.

It's about finding the best system to get the maximum out of the special players. Ancelotti did it with Modric, Enrique did it with MSN , having special players make it alot easier but the manager still has to put a system in place.

by Sri Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:15 pm

Adit wrote:
srigooner wrote:
Adit wrote:

His system got them to second. The best that have reached in 8 years.

I know it's the new fashion to discredit managers and change history.

Nope. His lack of system was why they didn't win the title, despite the brilliance in attack largely driven by SAS.

I am not one for fads. I believe in credit where it is due. Rodgers can't hide behind the pretense of one good season, which wasn't even down to him.

Why isn't down to him? Why is the managers credits taken away in this specific case?

If Arsenal win the league it is because of Ozil right? Nothing to do with Wenger as per your logic. Because using the same logic Wenger's lack of system is the reason Arsenal didn't win it for almost a decade.

Arsenal winning the league, in the unlikely scenario that it happens, will not be because of one player alone. True, Özil is racking up the numbers - but you've barely watched us play if you assume that's the only reason we're on top. Like I posted elsewhere, it is because the rest of the teams are worse - a happy coincidence at best.

Also, not winning for a decade? I can't even get started on how wrong that argument is. Arsenal's lean years, the economic reasons behind them, the struggle to stay in the top 4 to have the CL money to pay off the stadium debt - none of that has anything to do with a system. Wenger being a relatively smart bloke, on the contrary, was the reason why Arsenal didn't slip into oblivion in that period.

Anyway, we are talking about Rodgers. Don't see why we have to bring up a comparison to anyone else, the longest serving PL managers even less so.

Back on the topic:
If I have to credit Rodgers, it is for not tinkering when he stumbled on a working 'system'. Oh, it was the same 'system' which shipped what 50 goals at the back? Which was the reason why Liverpool slipped up in the title race? (No pun intended).

by Sri Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:24 pm

Adit wrote:I remember Suarez under Daglish.

He had average end Product, wasn't even close to the finisher he is now either.

It's about finding the best system to get the maximum out of the special players. Ancelotti did it with Modric, Enrique did it with MSN , having special players make it alot easier but the manager still has to put a system in place.

May well be the case that Rodgers did as good a job as Ancelotti or Enrique did respectively.

If he was so good at having a system and implementing it, what happen in the subsequent seasons? The man forgot his own tricks of the trade?

Or didn't he have the right players anymore? In which case, it begs the question, who called the shots on all the money Liverpool has spent over the last 2 summers on average squad additions.

Or did Balotelli fit the famed 'system'? Or did Benteke and Firmino in the same team make sense to the 'system' Rodgers used, before getting sacked?

Don't get me wrong. My point is not to antagonize you or any other Liverpool fan. However, I find it disconcerting that Rodgers is hailed as a genius for a formula he simply seems to have stumbled upon in one season, while his shortcomings have been severely exposed after that.

And that brings me back to this thread. After all the time, money, and patience that FSG and Liverpool fans afforded Rodgers (even if on the basis of his exploits in that one season), it makes no sense whatsoever to be talking of Klopp being given the sack.

by Sri Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:25 pm

Art Morte wrote:Rodgers deserves some credit for the '14 season, at least when things started to click he kept them clicking. But it's not like we were a success all season long, we were 5th at the half-way point in 19th gameweek and had that crazy 11 game win-streak in the second-half of the season.

But thinking about it in hindsight and seeing what a player Suarez continues to be, you gotta say that putting Suarez in any of the current top teams and they should be challenging for the title. The credit for that season should be 50-50 between Suarez (and Sturridge) and Rodgers.

I find this a much more agreeable line of argument.

by Curtinho Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:29 pm

Art Morte wrote:Rodgers deserves some credit for the '14 season, at least when things started to click he kept them clicking. But it's not like we were a success all season long, we were 5th at the half-way point in 19th gameweek and had that crazy 11 game win-streak in the second-half of the season.

But thinking about it in hindsight and seeing what a player Suarez continues to be, you gotta say that putting Suarez in any of the current top teams and they should be challenging for the title. The credit for that season should be 50-50 between Suarez (and Sturridge) and Rodgers.

It's weird. It's almost like every team that wins the title in the top leagues these days has elite players.

I was never a fan of the Rodgers sacking. I think he's a good coach and tactically he is quite good. I think the inner workings of Liverpool from a management and player recruitment standpoint are far more to blame for what's going on than any coach.

I said it last year when everyone was clamouring for Klopp or Benitez that bringing them in wouldn't change the results right now without changing the players. Although I think we have a talented squad there's definitely some pieces missing.

I mean, if you're going to say that Rodgers gets no credit for 13/14 then you may as well discredit Pep for Messilona or Mourinho because of Ronaldo and Hazard or Pellegrini for Aguero/Silva/Toure, etc. etc. The truth is that Liverpool's squad even when they had Suarez and Sturridge was not as talented as Chelsea or City or even Arsenal. Suarez and Gerrard were full of praise for Rodgers which everyone was quick to point out until they all turned on him.

No point in passing judgment on Klopp until we see what players he brings in which, honestly, has a much bigger determination on how this team is going to look moving forward than his coaching will, imo.

by Red Alert Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:23 am

Adit wrote:
srigooner wrote:
Adit wrote:

His system got them to second. The best that have reached in 8 years.

I know it's the new fashion to discredit managers and change history.

Nope. His lack of system was why they didn't win the title, despite the brilliance in attack largely driven by SAS.

I am not one for fads. I believe in credit where it is due. Rodgers can't hide behind the pretense of one good season, which wasn't even down to him.

Why isn't down to him? Why is the managers credits taken away in this specific case?

If Arsenal win the league it is because of Ozil right? Nothing to do with Wenger as per your logic. Because using the same logic Wenger's lack of system is the reason Arsenal didn't win it for almost a decade.

Just to but in: No his system did not.

Suarez got him second.

Rodgers had a system in place in his first season and finished 7th. We had NO system in place when we finished second. And NO system after Suarez left. It's the exact reason why majority of the Liverpool section hates me, it's because I was calling Sir Brendan Rodgers the saviour out. He had no idea on how to set up a team. Playing 8 defenders (AND STILL CONCEDING 50+ GOALS IN A SEASON DESPITE DEFENDING BEING EASY) and letting Sturridge and Suarez do what they want to do in the final third is not good management. Every single mess we have right now is because of Rodgers' tenure.

To your example... no, it wouldn't be. Ozil is APART/HAS ADAPTED to Wenger's system. Ozil is merely playing his role. This is where a lot of people get lost. Good managers put a system in place and world class players ADAPT to that system. Great players are always going to look great no matter how you play. It's a squad game, though.

Your last sentence is just plain ignorance. Arsene's system is the reason they've finished top 4 for the past decade. They were in major debt and continuously losing key player every year to pay off the Emirates. There's a reason they've shown to be a little bit more successful in past years. It's because they've essentially paid off the stadium and can now manage to not only hold onto their best players, but actually sign quality rather than just kids.

Klopp is trying to bring his methods and ideology at the club. Not only does that take time, it takes patience. He doesn't care about the personnel at the club despite what he says. They're not his players. He's making them adapt to him, rather than they adapt for "short term" success. He's going for consistency to get that long term success. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have the personnel for it. That came from horrible management in the passed. It's not his fault.

Adit wrote:I remember Suarez under Daglish.

He had average end Product, wasn't even close to the finisher he is now either.

It's about finding the best system to get the maximum out of the special players. Ancelotti did it with Modric, Enrique did it with MSN , having special players make it alot easier but the manager still has to put a system in place.

Are you still going on about Dalglish? The amount of times you've been proven wrong about him? rofl

Suarez came to England without being a CF. He was an INCONSISTENT goalscorer, even when he scored 50+ goals that year. And in his "average end product" he scored 14 and hit the bar/post like 9 times lmao.

I still don't understand how you can state "a manager still has to put a system in place" and then defend Rodgers. It's almost like you didn't watch us play in 13/14. Laughing

srigooner wrote:[
May well be the case that Rodgers did as good a job as Ancelotti or Enrique did respectively.

If he was so good at having a system and implementing it, what happen in the subsequent seasons? The man forgot his own tricks of the trade?

Or didn't he have the right players anymore? In which case, it begs the question, who called the shots on all the money Liverpool has spent over the last 2 summers on average squad additions.

Or did Balotelli fit the famed 'system'? Or did Benteke and Firmino in the same team make sense to the 'system' Rodgers used, before getting sacked?

Don't get me wrong. My point is not to antagonize you or any other Liverpool fan. However, I find it disconcerting that Rodgers is hailed as a genius for a formula he simply seems to have stumbled upon in one season, while his shortcomings have been severely exposed after that.

And that brings me back to this thread. After all the time, money, and patience that FSG and Liverpool fans afforded Rodgers (even if on the basis of his exploits in that one season), it makes no sense whatsoever to be talking of Klopp being given the sack.

Great post. +1

by CBarca Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:57 am

Lol are people actually talking about Klopp getting the sack?

You guys finally have a good manager for the first time since Benitez. Give him some time, Klopp's record speaks for itself

by Sri Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:36 am

CBarca wrote:Lol are people actually talking about Klopp getting the sack?

You guys finally have a good manager for the first time since Benitez. Give him some time, Klopp's record speaks for itself

Klopp has his limitations, which were severely exposed and exploited in his last year with BVB. The real question is, has he evolved his methods and systems since then.

Given that this is not *his* squad but one that he has inherited, it is not possible to make this judgement. That is why we have to be patient. Listening to his interviews, and I listen to every one of them, he seems to have the right ideas and approach in managing this transition.

In the coming months, we will see if 'heavy metal football' has evolved to address the tactical flaws identified and exploited by rival managers.

by Unique Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:31 pm

srigooner wrote:
CBarca wrote:Lol are people actually talking about Klopp getting the sack?

You guys finally have a good manager for the first time since Benitez. Give him some time, Klopp's record speaks for itself

Klopp has his limitations, which were severely exposed and exploited in his last year with BVB. The real question is, has he evolved his methods and systems since then.

Given that this is not *his* squad but one that he has inherited, it is not possible to make this judgement. That is why we have to be patient. Listening to his interviews, and I listen to every one of them, he seems to have the right ideas and approach in managing this transition.

In the coming months, we will see if 'heavy metal football' has evolved to address the tactical flaws identified and exploited by rival managers.

the problem with klopps pressing game is it don't work against teams that park the bus. and 60% of prem lge teams will park the bus v Liverpool. sounds silly but if I were klopp I would tell the team to give up possesson of the ball and play like the away side. that way you can draw teams out from the back.

by Curtinho Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:57 pm

RA wrote:Rodgers had a system in place in his first season and finished 7th. We had NO system in place when we finished second. And NO system after Suarez left. It's the exact reason why majority of the Liverpool section hates me, it's because I was calling Sir Brendan Rodgers the saviour out. He had no idea on how to set up a team. Playing 8 defenders (AND STILL CONCEDING 50+ GOALS IN A SEASON DESPITE DEFENDING BEING EASY) and letting Sturridge and Suarez do what they want to do in the final third is not good management. Every single mess we have right now is because of Rodgers' tenure.

I don't even.

by Unique Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:59 pm

Curtinho wrote:
RA wrote:Rodgers had a system in place in his first season and finished 7th. We had NO system in place when we finished second. And NO system after Suarez left. It's the exact reason why majority of the Liverpool section hates me, it's because I was calling Sir Brendan Rodgers the saviour out. He had no idea on how to set up a team. Playing 8 defenders (AND STILL CONCEDING 50+ GOALS IN A SEASON DESPITE DEFENDING BEING EASY) and letting Sturridge and Suarez do what they want to do in the final third is not good management. Every single mess we have right now is because of Rodgers' tenure.

I don't even.

RA does talk some crap rofl

by Sri Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:01 pm

Might sound stupid, but pressing is off the ball right?

High pressing is only a part of the football style of Klopp at BVB. If I remember right, it is also about fast paced transitions and quick attacks.

None of that should require possession hoarding. hmm

by BAYERN_MUNICH Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:55 pm

I heard Benítez is looking for a job

by Unique Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:17 pm

srigooner wrote:Might sound stupid, but pressing is off the ball right?

High pressing is only a part of the football style of Klopp at BVB. If I remember right, it is also about fast paced transitions and quick attacks.

None of that should require possession hoarding.

not sure what you mean. I didn't say we should hog the ball. I said maybe we should give the other team more of the ball.

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