Re: How can racism be dealt with once and for all?

by Forza Mon May 05, 2014 2:44 pm

jibers wrote:
Forza wrote:
jibers wrote:It can't be. As long as there are differences between people it will always be there. It's like saying how do you get rid of all discrimination? People need to stop living in fantasy land.
I agree that there will always be some racists, no matter how well-educated people are, but...

Discrimination =/= racism.

A brilliant example of this distinction is racial comedy. Sure, the comedian points out differences between different races for a comic effect, but he's not, in doing so, asserting that one race is superior or inferior to another.

Racism is a form of discrimination. What is racism? Discriminating against colour of skin? Discrimination against geography? Discrimination against someone else belief? The word racism is so overused now to cover everything! What is racism?

Look, I think there is a clear difficulty in defining what is a 'race' of people and what constitutes 'discrimination'. I think that is a moral judgement that everyone has to make for themselves. At what point do you feel it is wrong to make a particular type of judgement about a person for a particular reason?

I mean, if I asked for you to give me an instance of racism you would be able to. E.g. 2 candidates for a job interview, candidate A is better than candidate B in terms of qualifications, but you choose candidate B because you generally think that people of candidate A's race are inherently untrustworthy, slack and unreliable. That's racism in my eyes.

I think that the most accepted definition of racism includes the belief that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another. I think that without that, it isn't racism, it's just a comparison.

by jibers Mon May 05, 2014 2:51 pm

Forza wrote:
jibers wrote:
Forza wrote:
I agree that there will always be some racists, no matter how well-educated people are, but...

Discrimination =/= racism.

A brilliant example of this distinction is racial comedy. Sure, the comedian points out differences between different races for a comic effect, but he's not, in doing so, asserting that one race is superior or inferior to another.

Racism is a form of discrimination. What is racism? Discriminating against colour of skin? Discrimination against geography? Discrimination against someone else belief? The word racism is so overused now to cover everything! What is racism?

Look, I think there is a clear difficulty in defining what is a 'race' of people and what constitutes 'discrimination'. I think that is a moral judgement that everyone has to make for themselves. At what point do you feel it is wrong to make a particular type of judgement about a person for a particular reason?

I mean, if I asked for you to give me an instance of racism you would be able to. E.g. 2 candidates for a job interview, candidate A is better than candidate B in terms of qualifications, but you choose candidate B because you generally think that people of candidate A's race are inherently untrustworthy, slack and unreliable. That's racism in my eyes.

I think that the most accepted definition of racism includes the belief that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another. I think that without that, it isn't racism, it's just a comparison.

And when you say that a race is superior to another what area are you talking about? Sports? Intelligence? hygeine? Aestethics, attractiveness and looks? Now we are going into particulars. If a person does not find asian women attractive, and an asian woman comes on to him and he turns her down, is that racism? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just interested in your view tbh.

by Raptorgunner Mon May 05, 2014 3:08 pm

guest_07 wrote:"racism" is like "islamophobia"

it cannot be dealt for once & for all, but we can reduce it to certain amount

that is the nature of human

Exactly this.

by McLewis Mon May 05, 2014 3:30 pm

jibers wrote:
Forza wrote:
jibers wrote:It can't be. As long as there are differences between people it will always be there. It's like saying how do you get rid of all discrimination? People need to stop living in fantasy land.
I agree that there will always be some racists, no matter how well-educated people are, but...

Discrimination =/= racism.

A brilliant example of this distinction is racial comedy. Sure, the comedian points out differences between different races for a comic effect, but he's not, in doing so, asserting that one race is superior or inferior to another.

Racism is a form of discrimination. What is racism? Discriminating against colour of skin? Discrimination against geography? Discrimination against someone else belief? The word racism is so overused now to cover everything! What is racism?

Racism is NOT discrimination. It is a belief that one race is superior to another. The act of the alleged superior race preventing an inferior race from certain things is known as "prejudice".

Racism and prejudice go hand and hand, but they are NOT the same thing. A common misconception.

by McLewis Mon May 05, 2014 3:32 pm

As for the OP, it's on the clubs first and foremost to stamp out racism within their stadiums. They are the ones who should feel the heat. Secondly, it's on the leagues to take tougher stances on racism. Docking points, and imposing closed door games more often will hurt clubs where it matters....their coffers. Since these places are run like businesses now, it's the only way they'll understand that they need to better control who they let into their stadiums to see their games.

by Forza Mon May 05, 2014 3:36 pm

jibers wrote:
Forza wrote:
jibers wrote:

Racism is a form of discrimination. What is racism? Discriminating against colour of skin? Discrimination against geography? Discrimination against someone else belief? The word racism is so overused now to cover everything! What is racism?

Look, I think there is a clear difficulty in defining what is a 'race' of people and what constitutes 'discrimination'. I think that is a moral judgement that everyone has to make for themselves. At what point do you feel it is wrong to make a particular type of judgement about a person for a particular reason?

I mean, if I asked for you to give me an instance of racism you would be able to. E.g. 2 candidates for a job interview, candidate A is better than candidate B in terms of qualifications, but you choose candidate B because you generally think that people of candidate A's race are inherently untrustworthy, slack and unreliable. That's racism in my eyes.

I think that the most accepted definition of racism includes the belief that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another. I think that without that, it isn't racism, it's just a comparison.

And when you say that a race is superior to another what area are you talking about? Sports? Intelligence? hygeine? Aestethics, attractiveness and looks? Now we are going into particulars. If a person does not find asian women attractive, and an asian woman comes on to him and he turns her down, is that racism? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just interested in your view tbh.

I think racism applies to everything where it is possible for the belief that one race is superior to another to be manifested. Sports, intelligence, and hygiene would all be included. However, it is not racism if you say something like, "he's Brazilian, he must be good at football". Yes, you've made a foolish generalisation about an entire nation of people, but you haven't made any discrimination based on that assumption.

With regards to your example of the guy who turns the Asian woman down because he finds Asian women physically unattractive - I think that in reality he would judge each Asian woman on a case by case basis. So if she came up to him, he wouldn't reject her straight out knowing she's Asian but without having seen her first - he's going to see her and then make a judgment.

But let's get to the core of the issue: Imagine it was an internet chat and he has no picture of her, the only thing he knows is that she is Asian and he rejects her on that basis. At that point, I think that describing it as racism is still a bit of a stretch because beauty is a very subjective thing - he may have a very genuine dislike of Asian physical features. In that case, I would say that other than being a very shallow person, this guy is prejudiced against Asian women. Prejudice, of course, meaning that he has pre-judged this woman to be unattractive purely on the basis that she is Asian, without even having seen her.

by jibers Mon May 05, 2014 3:52 pm

McLewis wrote:
jibers wrote:
Forza wrote:
I agree that there will always be some racists, no matter how well-educated people are, but...

Discrimination =/= racism.

A brilliant example of this distinction is racial comedy. Sure, the comedian points out differences between different races for a comic effect, but he's not, in doing so, asserting that one race is superior or inferior to another.

Racism is a form of discrimination. What is racism? Discriminating against colour of skin? Discrimination against geography? Discrimination against someone else belief? The word racism is so overused now to cover everything! What is racism?

Racism is NOT discrimination. It is a belief that one race is superior to another. The act of the alleged superior race preventing an inferior race from certain things is known as "prejudice".

Racism and prejudice go hand and hand, but they are NOT the same thing. A common misconception.

So then what is race? Because Islam sure as hell isn't a race is it? Yet people keep using the word when someone feels someone elses religion is daft. And again I ask superior in what? Is it racist when someone says Black men are superior to white people physically? Is that racist against white people?

by Forza Mon May 05, 2014 3:59 pm

jibers wrote:
McLewis wrote:
jibers wrote:

Racism is a form of discrimination. What is racism? Discriminating against colour of skin? Discrimination against geography? Discrimination against someone else belief? The word racism is so overused now to cover everything! What is racism?

Racism is NOT discrimination. It is a belief that one race is superior to another. The act of the alleged superior race preventing an inferior race from certain things is known as "prejudice".

Racism and prejudice go hand and hand, but they are NOT the same thing. A common misconception.

So then what is race? Because Islam sure as hell isn't a race is it? Yet people keep using the word when someone feels someone elses religion is daft. And again I ask superior in what? Is it racist when someone says Black men are superior to white people physically? Is that racist against white people?

1. The equivalent of 'racist' but referring to religion is religious intolerance. But note that a person can still be prejudiced against people of a certain faith (or no faith). You ask, 'superior in what?' and the answer is superior in any way in which you can judge a religion. Simplest example: "my religion works, but yours doesn't".

2. Yes, it is racist to say that all black people are physically superior to white people and vice versa.

by guest_07 Mon May 05, 2014 4:12 pm

racism can be defined as

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

by rwo power Mon May 05, 2014 4:51 pm

Hm. But what if I say that Tibetan sherpas are superior to non-sherpas in high altitudes when they have in fact a different genetic make up that really makes them superior in these circumstances as a "race"?

(Check out http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/11/sherpa-genetics-human-evolution-at-work.html )

by gb Mon May 05, 2014 4:56 pm

In the end, is racism that much different from discrimination that it warrants us to discuss the difference between the two? Whether its racism or discrimination, both are corruptive forces that only produce disturbances in society and both need to be dealt with forcefully.
I agree with Forza in that criminalizing Racism/discrimination isn't the solution to the dilemma and that more effort needs to be made to bring awareness to the abomination that is racism/discrimination. League bodies need to be more influential in the fight against racism/discrimination and need to pressure the clubs for change to occur. Clubs are responsible for monitoring the behavior of fans and if fans act in such a wicked manner it should be the responsibility of the club to work with the league and local law enforcement agencies to halt that behavior. I want to end by saying that league officials in England, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, etc. can learn a thing or two from the happenings in the NBA/Donald Sterling case and that public shunning of certain immoral acts and fining fans and issuing lifetime bans to those who commit the atrocity of racism and discrimination is the way forward in this fight.

by sportsczy Mon May 05, 2014 5:03 pm

Deal with it like they do in France:
- First offense, club gets a heavy fine
- Second offense, club plays a game without any of their fans being present
- Third offense, continue with no fans at games... but eventually, the club also gets docked points

Zero tolerance. No exceptions. There are a lot of racists in France... but believe me, they don't voice it at football matches.

Pretty much tough on everything too... Leonardo got a 1 year ban for touching a ref after the game. May sound ridiculously severe... but that's the point: You make the consequences so harsh that nobody wants to risk it.

by Onyx Mon May 05, 2014 5:06 pm

England doesn't have a problem with racism.

I doubt 'educating' fans will work. Not every fan is a kid in school. Drastic measures need to be taken in order to combat racism. If everyone keeps dithering and burying their heads in the sand, then nothing will ever be achieved.

by gb Mon May 05, 2014 5:13 pm

But you can't start handing out 5yr sentences for saying racist/discriminatory acts either otherwise jails and prisons would be overflown and eventual tax hikes would occur to maintain prisons.

by Onyx Mon May 05, 2014 5:19 pm

Yeh that's one way of thinking of it, but if the actual punishment is severe in the first place, then wouldn't it make people think twice before being racist?

The new consequences would be promoted in ads, in articles, banners, during shows, inside stadiums, on tickets, on the wall where you enter the stadium etc. I'm sure that would be adequate enough for everyone to get the message.

by halamadrid2 Mon May 05, 2014 5:21 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:England doesn't have a problem with racism.

I doubt 'educating' fans will work. Not every fan is a kid in school. Drastic measures need to be taken in order to combat racism. If everyone keeps dithering and burying their heads in the sand, then nothing will ever be achieved.

Yepp. England has had the most progress when it comes to dealing with racism

you get the occasional drunkard going off a rant on the tube every now and again but punishment is usually severe if you do become guilty. Just look at the reaction to Jeremy Clarkson when they "thought" he said something racist

I think other countries could do well to follow in UK's footsteps in stamping out racism

by halamadrid2 Mon May 05, 2014 5:24 pm

gb wrote:But you can't start handing out 5yr sentences for saying racist/discriminatory acts either otherwise jails and prisons would be overflown and eventual tax hikes would occur to maintain prisons.

it goes both ways. The prisons potentially overfills but the biggest threat is having a jail sentence for racism on your criminal record, you aren't going to find a job then. Most employers do a CRB check before you come and work for them

by gb Mon May 05, 2014 5:25 pm

I totally agree with you on the punishment being severe but prison sentences isn't the way to go here. Heavy fines and lifetime bans while also placing a great deal of responsibility on the clubs to act and correct the behavior of their own fans should be the method of choice

by halamadrid2 Mon May 05, 2014 5:36 pm

gb wrote:I totally agree with you on the punishment being severe but prison sentences isn't the way to go here. Heavy fines and lifetime bans while also placing a great deal of responsibility on the clubs to act and correct the behavior of their own fans should be the method of choice

Yes I agree. Clubs need to take more responsibility

the only reason Villarreal banned that guy who threw the banana was because it became viral or else they would've blamed it on a careless individual who shouldn't be associated to the club

too much racism in Italy and Spain because the respective leagues are not run correctly. First the higher ups need cleaning out then you move down. However England's method has reaped the best reward so it must be for a reason

by gb Mon May 05, 2014 5:55 pm

sportsczy shared with us France's model and I believe that's the right approach towards clubs but in addition fans need to be dealt with too. You are not going to ever eradicate racism and discrimination completely but if you can suppress that sort of behavior to the confines of ones own home then it is less likely to cause social disturbances and discomfort.

by rwo power Mon May 05, 2014 9:56 pm

gb wrote:if you can suppress that sort of behavior to the confines of ones own home then it is less likely to cause social disturbances and discomfort.

Actually in that case it can brew hidden and become even more dangerous. In France, the right extreme "Front National" party continues to grow - and this is a worrying development. If you try to suppress people with huge fines/punishments, they might collect in the underground and work to overcome that suppression in ways that might become even more dangerous.

Mind you, a punishment is only about the symptoms. To cure the sickness, you need to make people rethink, you need education from young age on.

by Lupi Tue May 06, 2014 5:41 am

Dante wrote:
Lupi wrote:I Think as long as there's Racism outside the stadium there will be inside stadium as well?!

Precisely. Racism wasn't born inside a stadium ,as i believe everybody gets. It comes from the society and as long as it exists there , it will exist in the stadium as well. Football as a sport has long ago decided it can actively help the cause against it , simply because football , is just another part of the society and it is it's duty , to fight back the cancer that's called racism.

I think the only real way to fight racism , is education . An educated mind has no time to care or insult once's color of skin or nation. It doesn't matter for said person , from where one comes from. Education isn't only books and college , though. It can be kids watching their favourite players be role models , be friendly and respectfull to each other , from wherever they come from. When that kid has favourite players that could be from anywhere . When someone experiences this kind of behaviour from a young age , it will pass on to him .

I think strict measures must exist , for there are people which are not kids anymore . Frankly , a 40 year old racist will die a racist . But our best chance against racism , is education , hoping one day it will have erased racism from it's foundation , or better , before it even remotely begins.

At the end of the day , football can send a strong message to millions of people in the fight against racism , but that's just about it i'm afraid . Before anything else this is a political and social matter . I know for a certainty that fighting against racism isn't easy . I've never been racist and i always tried to show to racists how ignorant and mistaken they are in this. That they are no better or worse from those who they racially abuse with such righteous cause. And it has happened to me on more than one occasion , that i've been trying to reason with racists without managing anything in the end , sometimes , only to see their hate burning even more inside them.

It's just like cigarette .. the longer you live with it , the better are the chances you will die with it. You just can't deal with stupidity , i'm afraid. Only education can . I suppose things will only get better as the years go by , though certain people can't help themselves and we just have to live with that. Not accept it , no by any means.. but sadly , it won't dissapear tomorrow , doesn't matter how many years prison they could get.

by Onyx Wed May 07, 2014 4:14 am

FIFA president, Sepp Blatter had strong words in the aftermath of Atletico Madrid fans’ “monkey chants” against Levante’s Pape Diop, stating that the fans, if found guilty of such acts, would cost their team a fate far worse than fines or sanctions, but deduction of points and possibly even relegation.

In an interview on Monday, Blatter stated that he was “very angry” about the continued racist activity in football.

“We don’t need to close the stadiums, we need to deduct points or relegated teams,” before stating that these measures were discussed in the last FIFA Congress.

UEFA’s press officer, Pedro Pinto also echoed Blatter sentiments, condemning the recent events and supporting any measures of prevention.

“UEFA and its president, Michel Platini strongly condemn any form of discrimination, including recent racist behaviour in Spain. UEFA has rules and hard sanctions against discrimination. For complaints that occur outsides of our jurisdiction, we support that action taken by the relevant authorities.”

http://www.insidespanishfootball.com/107114/blatter-racism-teams-should-lose-points-or-be-relegated/

by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 07, 2014 4:17 am

I feel like in cases where the authorities are 100% sure of who were the racists, just putting their picture up on the internet and naming and shaming them would be enough. No one would want to be known for that, it would ruin your life. But it's a slippery slope if there is no absolute certainty.

Point deduction because of a few idiots would be very harsh. Imagine if Atletico win the league but lose because 3 idiots called Diop a monkey. Barca fans would pretend to be Madrid fans and racially abuse whoever Madrid is playing against just to get them to drop points Laughing

by Le Samourai Wed May 07, 2014 4:40 am

Deduct 3 points from Atletico pls.

A fair sanction Proud

by Donuts Wed May 07, 2014 5:23 am

deducting points for racist "fans" is too much
and if it happens i can expect to see some rival fans dressing and acting racist to deduct points from said club.

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