Why Israel didn't sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?

India needed nukes once China had them. Pakistan needed nukes once India had them. It's really not that hard. And India never having attacked another country isn't that big an argument when there's a dispute about a region both Pakistan and India claim as their own - since technically attacking Kashmere wouldn't be "invading foreign soil" on either part.

Also, if your opposition has nukes, and you don't, you can't attack them. If both sides have nukes, there's a good chance neither side will use them.

VivaStPauli wrote:
That's exactly my point though. They built an arsenal of f*cking nukes but can't be assed to foster trade relations? TBH to me it seems that networking the global economies would be the cheaper, more efficient, and less possibly-world-ending way of achieving lasting peace. It worked for Europe, and we loved killing the shit out of each other for about 4000 years.

The big issue is its not easy to develop economic relations between India and Pakistan when there is a huge mistrust between the us.

Basically if we have any Pak goods in Indian market no one will buy and there will be huge outcry to ban it saying the money will help sponsoring terrorists against India.Similarly Pak will have there arguments of their own.I am not saying these arguments are correct but that is the reality unfortunately.

In this environment how exactly can a govt foster trade relations.It will only result in the fall of govts.No political party will risk it.

I don't agree, since the money that Pakistan has funnelled into their nuclear program (same goes for India) could've just as well made their economies grow. Sure, Pakistan going for Nukes kind of makes sense, with India being a couple times larger and whatnot, but TBH the historic course in these events hasn't always been a war with conventional warfare until one side ran out of soldiers, but the weaker nation giving the f*ck up. It's ridiculous. I get that Kashmere has scenic views of mountain sides, but that really doesn't matter if both sides count on only roaches being able to enjoy the view if shit goes down.

I totally get that the nukes in place work as a deterrent, I just think that an economic deterrent would've been more beneficial, and wouldn't endanger the life of the human species.

Ofcourse spending the Nuke money to improve economy is a noble idea but its impractical for India considering our geographical area.If u dont have strong security/defence mechanism and stability we wouldnt have able to achieve this growth in last 20 years.If we didnt have nukes we would have eternally engaged in wars destroying our stability and making the situation non-conducive to development.So in that sense money spent on developing nukes is money well spent.

VivaStPauli wrote:India needed nukes once China had them. Pakistan needed nukes once India had them. It's really not that hard. And India never having attacked another country isn't that big an argument when there's a dispute about a region both Pakistan and India claim as their own - since technically attacking Kashmere wouldn't be "invading foreign soil" on either part.

Also, if your opposition has nukes, and you don't, you can't attack them. If both sides have nukes, there's a good chance neither side will use them.

lol kashmir is part of the indian union , still pakistan controls a part of it, and has tried several times to capture the whole of it ,most recently being the kargil war .. india had to defend it and we lost several hundred guys . hari singh agreed to acede the kingdom of kashmir to india upon partition so pakistan shouldnt have a claim on it . it is not foreign soil for us , but for them = yeah


and how are we supposed to support china ? the same country who showed arunanchal pradesh on their map , and attacked us and captured a part of it after years of ' hindi chini bhai bhai ? ' ( india china- brothers )

and they also supply a lot of weapons to pakistan to help create indo pak tension so that the indian economy cant develop as fast as china .in this sort of environment where our docility has cost us , you think its wrong for us to get nukes and prepare for any eventuality? NO Sir

I totally understand why India and Pakistan both got nukes, I just think it isn't the only way it could've worked out.

If one of the strongest bilateral relations in Europe are Germany and France, for f*ck's sake, then India and Pakistan can get along as well. Hell, Germany is even getting along with Poland these days. And it's all the economy, stupid. (Not calling you stupid, quoting Reagan^^)

Irradiated nuclear fuel generates heat long after it has been taken out of the reactor. This "radioactive decay heat" has to be removed by being submerged in water for 7 years, or the fuel will overheat and radioactive gases will be released. All irradiated nuclear fuel contains plutonium.

The nuclear fuel chain -- including plutonium


When uranium is dug out of the ground, it is a blend of uranium-235 (less than 1 percent) and uranium-238 (more than 99 percent). U-235 is the kind of uranium that fissions and releases energy, so to make bombs or reactor fuel, the concentration of U-235 has to be increased or “enriched”. This is done by removing much of the U-238. The left-over U-238 is called “depleted uranium” (DU). It has no significant civilian uses, but it does have several military uses. In recent years DU has been used to make armor-piercing shells and bullets. When used, these weapons spread radioactive waste (DU) over the battlefield; it can damage people’s health long after hostilities have ceased. Depleted uranium is the source material for producing plutonium, the primary explosive in nuclear warheads. Each atom of plutonium-239 begins as an atom of U-238. Depleted uranium is also used as a metallic component in warheads, more than doubling the explosive power of the explosion. The broken fragments of depleted uranium atoms are the main components of the radioactive fallout from an H-bomb.

Breeding plutonium-239 from uranium-238

VivaStPauli wrote:I totally understand why India and Pakistan both got nukes, I just think it isn't the only way it could've worked out.

If one of the strongest bilateral relations in Europe are Germany and France, for f*ck's sake, then India and Pakistan can get along as well. Hell, Germany is even getting along with Poland these days. And it's all the economy, stupid. (Not calling you stupid, quoting Reagan^^)

its not so easy man .. memories of partition violence get passed from generation to generation and get imprinted on the minds of youngsters

relations have improved but there is so much of instability in pakistan you never know , its the breeding ground for so many terrorist movements, how many times has india been attacked now .. justb ecause we have a huge population doesnt mean that we can risk our sovereignity like this

Lord Hades wrote:
its not so easy man .. memories of partition violence get passed from generation to generation and get imprinted on the minds of youngsters

relations have improved but there is so much of instability in pakistan you never know , its the breeding ground for so many terrorist movements, how many times has india been attacked now .. justb ecause we have a huge population doesnt mean that we can risk our sovereignity like this

I dont think thats really true.Not many in current generation India really care about the impacts of Partition.The only issue for most Indians about Pakistan is state sponsored terrorism.

Also. Dude. Germany and France/Poland. If we can get along, everybody can.

are you actually saying Pakistani Government Sponsor Terrorists ?

Isn't that pretty much proven? :X

BeautifulGame wrote:

Lord Hades wrote:
its not so easy man .. memories of partition violence get passed from generation to generation and get imprinted on the minds of youngsters

relations have improved but there is so much of instability in pakistan you never know , its the breeding ground for so many terrorist movements, how many times has india been attacked now .. justb ecause we have a huge population doesnt mean that we can risk our sovereignity like this

I dont think thats really true.Not many in current generation India really care about the impacts of Partition.The only issue for most Indians about Pakistan is state sponsored terrorism.

you would be surprised man , a lot of communal memories and stereotypes are partition generated , most of these feelings have their origins in that

this is misguided of course but still

RealGunner wrote:are you actually saying Pakistani Government Sponsor Terrorists ?

youre in doubt about that?

yea, is there any evidence about it ?

Pakistan
Pakistan has been accused by India, Afghanistan, the United States,the United Kingdom, of involvement in terrorism in Kashmir and Afghanistan.Poland has also alleged that terrorists have "friends in Pakistani government structures". In July 2009, current President of Pakistan Asif Ali Zardari admitted that the Pakistani government had "created and nurtured" terrorist groups to achieve its short-term foreign policy goals. According to an analysis published by Saban Center for Middle East Policy at Brookings Institution in 2008 Pakistan was the worlds 'most active' state sponsor of terrorism including aiding groups which were considered a direct threat to USA.
The Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) has stated that it was training more than 3,000 militants from various nationalities. According to some reports published by the Council of Foreign Relations, the Pakistan military and the ISI have provided covert support to terrorist groups active in Kashmir, including the al-Qaeda affiliate Jaish-e-Mohammed"Pakistan has denied any involvement in terrorist activities in Kashmir, arguing that it only provides political and moral support to the secessionist groups who wish to escape Indian rule. Many Kashmiri militant groups also maintain their headquarters in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, which is cited as further proof by the Indian government. Many of the terrorist organisations are banned by the UN, but continue to operate under different names. The United Nations Organization has publicly increased pressure on Pakistan on its inability to control its Afghanistan border and not restricting the activities of Taliban leaders who have been designated by the UN as terrorists.
Many consider that Pakistan has been playing both sides in the US "War on Terror". Ahmed Rashid, a noted Pakistani journalist, has accused Pakistan's ISI of providing help to the Taliban. Author Ted Galen Carpenter echoed that statement, stating that Pakistan "...assisted rebel forces in Kashmir even though those groups have committed terrorist acts against civilians"[ Author Gordon Thomas stated that whilst aiding in the capture of al-Qaeda members, Pakistan "still sponsored terrorist groups in the disputed state of Kashmir, funding, training and arming them in their war on attrition against India." Journalist Stephen Schwartz notes that several militant and criminal groups are "backed by senior officers in the Pakistani army, the country's ISI intelligence establishment and other armed bodies of the state."According to one author, Daniel Byman, "Pakistan is probably today's most active sponsor of terrorism."
The Inter-Services Intelligence has often been accused of playing a role in major terrorist attacks across the world including the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States, terrorism in Kashmir,[Mumbai Train Bombings, Indian Parliament Attack Varnasi bombings, Hyderabad bombings[ and Mumbai terror attacks. The ISI is also accused of supporting Taliban forces[ and recruiting and training mujahideento fight in Afghanistan[ and Kashmir. Based on communication intercepts US intelligence agencies concluded Pakistan's ISI was behind the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul on July 7, 2008, a charge that the governments of India and Afghanistan had laid previously.[53] Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who has constantly reiterated allegations that militants operating training camps in Pakistan have used it as a launch platform to attack targets in Afghanistan, urged western military allies to target extremist hideouts in neighbouring Pakistan. When the United States, during the Clinton administration, targeted al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan with cruise missiles, Slate reported that two officers of the ISI were killed.
Pakistan is accused of sheltering and training the Taliban in operations "which include soliciting funding for the Taliban, bankrolling Taliban operations, providing diplomatic support as the Taliban's virtual emissaries abroad, arranging training for Taliban fighters, recruiting skilled and unskilled manpower to serve in Taliban armies, planning and directing offensives, providing and facilitating shipments of ammunition and fuel, and on several occasions apparently directly providing combat support," as reported by Human Rights Watch.On May 1, 2011 Osama Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan.

RealGunner wrote:yea, is there any evidence about it ?

I am not sure whether u are serious or really ignorant on the topic but either way the top 2 articles that came when googled on this topic.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-international/article2905521.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article2047493.ece


There are plenty of similar evidences but frankly its not really worth the time and effort.

I am not into the Sub continent Rivalry, Have a lot of mates from Pakistan and India though. never heard anything about the Terrorist thing


The above links are both from Indian Media. I'll look for some neutral sites on this topic. Thanks anyways

Lord Hades... Is that a Wiki article ?

yup rg , i couldve given other sources too and i can . but it was 3 am at night then and that was the first article that came to me lol .. still lot of facts arent wrong

RealGunner wrote:I am not into the Sub continent Rivalry, Have a lot of mates from Pakistan and India though. never heard anything about the Terrorist thing


The above links are both from Indian Media. I'll look for some neutral sites on this topic. Thanks anyways

if i may , this is one of the most respectable newspapers in india. it doesnt print any sensationalism, is black and white , doesnt have the sun type headlines etc .. thats why its recommended for every entrance exam as a source of current affairs

just to clarify i have no enemity with the pakistani people as a whole .most of them are the same as us lol, i dont find any difference. same culture, same language, same interests.. most indians and pakistanis get on famously on neutral ground anyway.. its just that there are few rotten apples , but they are still far away from spoiling the whole basket

lol at our Government sponsoring terrorist..... they can't do jack shit...and you expect them to sponsor terrorists...

Ever since this current government got into power, they haven't done anything expect drain all our money by corruption...Karachi which their own backyard is a now big mafia area, with thousands of people dying each year

the Prime Minister atm is on the verge of sack/jail because he won't sign a doc from the swiss government which wants to investigate that Zardari(the President)money laundering (which he has).

Our Government is incompetent, the only reason they are in power is because of Bhutto dying, rigged results and a deal made by US with Musharraf to drop all charges of corruption against him..


and Btw there are many Foreign entites that have holds in Pakistan and the Indian RAW is one of them mainly in Balochistan...helping some of the leaders rebel aganist Pakistan and get Independence.... like they did in East Pakistan(Bangledesh).

that was all indira gandhi mate , plus it was clear that a common religion cant hold people together

and i dont mean asif ali zardari personally goes around handing guns to kasab by that .. but its pretty well documented

Lord Hades wrote:just to clarify i have no enemity with the pakistani people as a whole .most of them are the same as us lol, i dont find any difference. same culture, same language, same interests.. most indians and pakistanis get on famously on neutral ground anyway.. its just that there are few rotten apples , but they are still far away from spoiling the whole basket

Thats why i am confused, People from Pakistan n India are Very close to each other in here, but then, its probably differnt living in the actual countries

RealGunner wrote:

Lord Hades wrote:just to clarify i have no enemity with the pakistani people as a whole .most of them are the same as us lol, i dont find any difference. same culture, same language, same interests.. most indians and pakistanis get on famously on neutral ground anyway.. its just that there are few rotten apples , but they are still far away from spoiling the whole basket

Thats why i am confused, People from Pakistan n India are Very close to each other in here, but then, its probably differnt living in the actual countries

haha yeah culture wise and everything its similiar thats why in neutral countries there is so much of friendship.. most pakistani and indian people dont dislike each other though , majority are decent people

RealGunner wrote:I am not into the Sub continent Rivalry, Have a lot of mates from Pakistan and India though. never heard anything about the Terrorist thing


The above links are both from Indian Media. I'll look for some neutral sites on this topic. Thanks anyways

Same articles from a neutral sources.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/world/asia/24headley.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10095936