Devil-Is-Red wrote:

dansik wrote:

everest1 wrote:and you would think that it would be more miserable to live out your days rotting away in a cell than to be put to death


RIP Troy Davis.

You would think that, and you'd be wrong. People in prison receive 3 hot meals a day, showers, TV, rec time, they get to hang out with all their homies, free medical care, free dental care, clothing, and protection from the elements. Don't forget that they still get to get drunk and high from homemade alcohol and smuggled drugs.

Prison in America is not nearly the punishment it is in other places.

And why the f are you saying RIP Troy Davis? That right there is what's wrong in our country. More sympathy for the CONVICTED crapheads than the people they hurt. Pathetic.

And how do you know he was a convicted craphead when there is no evidence indicating he did it? stop talking out your ass!

I know he was a convicted craphead because a jury of his peers CONVICTED him...hence making him convicted...whether he was guilty or not is another question. However, this was a guy who had a criminal past not exactly a pillar of society so I could really care less that he's dead. I just always find it humorous that stupid people are always RIP to the crapheads, but where's the RIP Mark MacPhail? Where's the threads for whenever anyone actually doing something worthwhile is gunned down by some craphead? Oh I forgot, our society memorializes criminals more than they do dead soldiers, firefighters, and police officers.

Not to mention countless courts heard the arguments. I think I'll take their word on whether he was guilty or not over that of some internet message boards and the media.

http://www.fop9.net/markmacphail/davispublicstatement.cfm

The Parole Board does not generally comment on death cases it has considered for clemency. However, the Troy Davis case has received such extensive publicity that the Board has decided to make an exception.

Davis’ attorneys have argued that the Board should grant him clemency because a number of the witnesses against Davis changed their earlier statements to the police and their testimony at the trial. Moreover, the attorneys have brought forward other people who now claim to have information that raises doubt as to the guilt of Davis.

Because of these claims, the Parole Board stopped Davis’ execution last year. The Board has now spent more than a year studying and considering this case.

As a part of its proceedings, the Board gave Davis’ attorneys an opportunity to present every witness they desired to support their allegation that there is doubt as to Davis’ guilt. The Board heard each of these witnesses and questioned them closely.

In addition, the Board has studied the voluminous trial transcript, the police investigation report and the initial statements of all witnesses. The Board has also had certain physical evidence retested and Davis interviewed.

After an exhaustive review of all available information regarding the Troy Davis case and after considering all possible reasons for granting clemency, the Board has determined that clemency is not warranted.

Hmmmmmm

http://www.fop9.net/markmacphail/debunkingthemyths.cfm

Myth # 1
Seven of the nine non-police witnesses against Davis have recanted their testimony or contradicted the story they told in court.

Truth #1
None of the recantations listed by Davis supporters state that Davis did not murder Officer MacPhail.

All but one of the “recants” state that the statements they gave at the time of the murder were typed up by the investigating officers after and during their interviews and that they signed them without reading them.

What they fail to mention is that TWO YEARS later they testified in court that their statements were true.

It has only happened several years after the conviction that they have spoken to members of Davis’ legal team, family and supporters that they NOW claim to have given false statements. It is transparently clear that the convicted murder’s supporters have manipulated these witnesses into saying they did not understand what they were saying during the investigation OR during the trial.

Two of the original witnesses HAVE NOT RECANTED their testimony that named Troy Davis as the murderer. This has so angered Davis’ supporters that they are trying to name one of these witnesses (Coles) as the shooter.

Coles was standing behind Officer MacPhail when MacPhail ran by chasing Davis. Davis turned and shot Officer from the front.

Coles came back to the scene of the shooting with a female after police arrived.

Davis changed clothes (even asking Coles for a shirt later) and fled to Atlanta with his sister.

Myth #2
There was never any physical evidence tying Davis to the murder for which he was convicted and sentenced to death.

Truth #2
A bullet that was removed from the jaw of a man who was shot by Troy Davis earlier in the day was compared to a bullet removed from Officer MacPhail. The ballistics matched!

During the latest Pardons and Parole Board hearing a Georgia Bureau of Investigation ballistics expert was present to testify about this evidence.

Bloody "spotted" clothing was removed from Davis’ house after he was named as a suspect. Because of the way Troy was standing above Officer MacPhail when he executed the officer he would have received a faint splatter of blood (because Officer MacPhail was on the ground most of the splatter would have been dispersed out along the ground and not upward).

A DNA test was performed on this evidence several years after the shooting because this technology did not exist at the time of the murder. The blood was so degraded (due to time) and the spots so small that the test “consumed” the sample without results. The Prosecutors NOT Troy Davis asked for this test.

Doesn't mean much to me tbh...There is more than enough in this case to create reasonable doubt - and there have been far worse examples of the justice system messing up...Williamson, Fritz, Ward, Fontenot

dansik wrote:

everest1 wrote:and you would think that it would be more miserable to live out your days rotting away in a cell than to be put to death


RIP Troy Davis.

You would think that, and you'd be wrong. People in prison receive 3 hot meals a day, showers, TV, rec time, they get to hang out with all their homies, free medical care, free dental care, clothing, and protection from the elements. Don't forget that they still get to get drunk and high from homemade alcohol and smuggled drugs.

Prison in America is not nearly the punishment it is in other places.

what? youre kidding! we actually feed inmates, allow them to shower, be outside for an hour a day, and protect them from "the elements"? well sign me up damnit! Seriously, what are you suggesting we do with our prisoners? Lock them in an over crowded room and throw away the key?

listen, i took a course on america's legal system and the prison classification system last semester and its not quite what youre describing. depending on how you are classified in a prison (which depends on the crime committed, sentencing, behavior, etc.), you have certain privileges. Some get TVs in their cell (which i also believe is ridiculous... but this has more to do with the privatization of the incarceration industry in the US than anything else), but most don't. the rest of what youre listing here is pretty basic, i'm not sure how you could justify locking up 1% of the US adult population and not feed them, allow them to shower, and patch up wounds from yard stabbings. Prison isn't the luxury resort you seem to think it is, escpecially if youre in solitary confinement. idk if troy davis was, but a lot of death row inmates are. this means you're locked up in your cell for 23 hours a day, with no contact with others at all. how does that sound to you? gives you plenty of time to consider why youre there, its hardly a vacation. many inmates literally go insane. death sounds like the easy way, doesn't it?

And why the f are you saying RIP Troy Davis? That right there is what's wrong in our country. More sympathy for the CONVICTED crapheads than the people they hurt. Pathetic.

This is just bigotry. a man was PUT TO DEATH, and just because he was a convict its somehow un-american to wish he passes in peace? where the hell is your sense of humanity? whats sick is not that i wished him to RIP, but that somehow some people feel vindicated for the death of a loved one by taking the life of another. how does that even make any sense?! And i never said that i don't have any sympathy for the victims, idk why you would assume that.

dansik wrote: Oh I forgot, our society memorializes criminals more than they do dead soldiers, firefighters, and police officers.

lol, name one memorial we have built for a criminal in the US. if you can think of one (which i certainly can't), i'll name you 5 more for fallen firefighters, police officers, and soldiers.

In addition, the Board has studied the voluminous trial transcript, the police investigation report and the initial statements of all witnesses. The Board has also had certain physical evidence retested and Davis interviewed.

After an exhaustive review of all available information regarding the Troy Davis case and after considering all possible reasons for granting clemency, the Board has determined that clemency is not warranted.

idk why youre citing this dude, youre missing the point big time. the problem is not that the courts didnt review the evidence, the problem is that the evidence itself is suspect.

everest1 wrote:

dansik wrote:

everest1 wrote:and you would think that it would be more miserable to live out your days rotting away in a cell than to be put to death


RIP Troy Davis.

You would think that, and you'd be wrong. People in prison receive 3 hot meals a day, showers, TV, rec time, they get to hang out with all their homies, free medical care, free dental care, clothing, and protection from the elements. Don't forget that they still get to get drunk and high from homemade alcohol and smuggled drugs.

Prison in America is not nearly the punishment it is in other places.

what? youre kidding! we actually feed inmates, allow them to shower, be outside for an hour a day, and protect them from "the elements"? well sign me up damnit! Seriously, what are you suggesting we do with our prisoners? Lock them in an over crowded room and throw away the key?

I don't have the answer on how to deal with prisoners, but it's not the awful place you (and others) make it out to be. The death penalty is a far worse punishment than life in prison.

listen, i took a course on america's legal system and the prison classification system last semester and its not quite what youre describing. depending on how you are classified in a prison (which depends on the crime committed, sentencing, behavior, etc.), you have certain privileges. Some get TVs in their cell (which i also believe is ridiculous... but this has more to do with the privatization of the incarceration industry in the US than anything else), but most don't. the rest of what youre listing here is pretty basic, i'm not sure how you could justify locking up 1% of the US adult population and not feed them, allow them to shower, and patch up wounds from yard stabbings. Prison isn't the luxury resort you seem to think it is, escpecially if youre in solitary confinement. idk if troy davis was, but a lot of death row inmates are. this means you're locked up in your cell for 23 hours a day, with no contact with others at all. how does that sound to you? gives you plenty of time to consider why youre there, its hardly a vacation. many inmates literally go insane. death sounds like the easy way, doesn't it?

Listen, I work in the criminal justice system. I spend a lot of time in jails and prisons and dealing with the people who inhabit those places. Prison may not be a luxury resort, but it's better than some crapholes people on the outside live in. And they don't take the time in prison to "think about why they're there". They take the time to think of ways to attack one other, attack the officers, smuggle in drugs or other contraband. I understand you took your class on the legal system and think you know everything because quite frankly when I went through the same courses, I thought the same thing. When you actually make it out into the real world and see the reality of it on a daily basis come on back and talk about the poor prisoners.

everest1 wrote:

dansik wrote: Oh I forgot, our society memorializes criminals more than they do dead soldiers, firefighters, and police officers.

lol, name one memorial we have built for a criminal in the US. if you can think of one (which i certainly can't), i'll name you 5 more for fallen firefighters, police officers, and soldiers.

Sean Bell Way, a street in New York City memorializes a drug dealer who tried to kill police officers attempting to detain him (who ended up getting shot and killed)

And it's not necessarily physical memorials, but the sentiments of people like yourself (RIP Troy Davis) who would rather wish someone who committed a horrible crime rest in peace than the person he killed. F that. Troy Davis I hope you rot in hell where you belong. The world isn't all unicorns and lollipops, there are people out there who serve no functional purpose to society and are better off being separated from the people who are actually attempting to make the world a better place. Troy Davis was one of those people.

dansik wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Once you have been convicted, it is assumed the jury have made the correct decision.
Becomes much harder to prove your innocence then.

But surely there are higher instances in the justice system - appeal courts - where you can appeal against the initial conviction?

There are and he went through them. He had 20 years, 4 separate stays of execution, and countless appeals. He lost all of them.

Well if he did go through the appeal process and nothing came out of it, chances are that the accusations against him were valid.

Davis pulled out a gun and shot two strangers in public. What "physical evidence" were they expecting? No houses were broken into, no cars stolen, no rapes or fistfights accompanied the shootings. Where exactly would you look for DNA? And to prove what?

I suppose it would be nice if the shell casings from both shootings that night matched. Oh wait -- they did. That's "physical evidence."

It's true that the bulk of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. That tends to happen when you shoot someone in a busy Burger King parking lot.

Eyewitness testimony, like all evidence tending to show guilt, has gotten a bad name recently, but the "eyewitness" testimony in this case did not consist simply of strangers trying to distinguish one tall black man from another. For one thing, several of the eyewitnesses knew Davis personally.

The bulk of the eyewitness testimony established the following:

Two tall, young black men were harassing a vagrant in the Burger King parking lot, one in a yellow shirt and the other in a white Batman shirt. The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant. When a cop yelled at them to stop, the man in the white shirt ran, then wheeled around and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, smiling.

Smiled while he executed a man for no reason. But you're right, we should feel sorry for him.

dansik wrote:

everest1 wrote:

dansik wrote:

everest1 wrote:and you would think that it would be more miserable to live out your days rotting away in a cell than to be put to death


RIP Troy Davis.

You would think that, and you'd be wrong. People in prison receive 3 hot meals a day, showers, TV, rec time, they get to hang out with all their homies, free medical care, free dental care, clothing, and protection from the elements. Don't forget that they still get to get drunk and high from homemade alcohol and smuggled drugs.

Prison in America is not nearly the punishment it is in other places.

what? youre kidding! we actually feed inmates, allow them to shower, be outside for an hour a day, and protect them from "the elements"? well sign me up damnit! Seriously, what are you suggesting we do with our prisoners? Lock them in an over crowded room and throw away the key?

I don't have the answer on how to deal with prisoners, but it's not the awful place you (and others) make it out to be. The death penalty is a far worse punishment than life in prison.

Doesn't it all boil down to the crime you've committed and what regulations that apply in the state you're serving your sentence in?

listen, i took a course on america's legal system and the prison classification system last semester and its not quite what youre describing. depending on how you are classified in a prison (which depends on the crime committed, sentencing, behavior, etc.), you have certain privileges. Some get TVs in their cell (which i also believe is ridiculous... but this has more to do with the privatization of the incarceration industry in the US than anything else), but most don't. the rest of what youre listing here is pretty basic, i'm not sure how you could justify locking up 1% of the US adult population and not feed them, allow them to shower, and patch up wounds from yard stabbings. Prison isn't the luxury resort you seem to think it is, escpecially if youre in solitary confinement. idk if troy davis was, but a lot of death row inmates are. this means you're locked up in your cell for 23 hours a day, with no contact with others at all. how does that sound to you? gives you plenty of time to consider why youre there, its hardly a vacation. many inmates literally go insane. death sounds like the easy way, doesn't it?

Listen, I work in the criminal justice system. I spend a lot of time in jails and prisons and dealing with the people who inhabit those places. Prison may not be a luxury resort, but it's better than some crapholes people on the outside live in. And they don't take the time in prison to "think about why they're there". They take the time to think of ways to attack one other, attack the officers, smuggle in drugs or other contraband. I understand you took your class on the legal system and think you know everything because quite frankly when I went through the same courses, I thought the same thing. When you actually make it out into the real world and see the reality of it on a daily basis come on back and talk about the poor prisoners.

If that's the case then it's no wonder so many people are imprisoned in the U.S. - it seems like the system is built to push people with low-income into the prison system.

It would be much more sensible to establish an improved welfare system and invest more in crime prevention.

dansik wrote:

Davis pulled out a gun and shot two strangers in public. What "physical evidence" were they expecting? No houses were broken into, no cars stolen, no rapes or fistfights accompanied the shootings. Where exactly would you look for DNA? And to prove what?

I suppose it would be nice if the shell casings from both shootings that night matched. Oh wait -- they did. That's "physical evidence."

It's true that the bulk of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. That tends to happen when you shoot someone in a busy Burger King parking lot.

Eyewitness testimony, like all evidence tending to show guilt, has gotten a bad name recently, but the "eyewitness" testimony in this case did not consist simply of strangers trying to distinguish one tall black man from another. For one thing, several of the eyewitnesses knew Davis personally.

The bulk of the eyewitness testimony established the following:

Two tall, young black men were harassing a vagrant in the Burger King parking lot, one in a yellow shirt and the other in a white Batman shirt. The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant. When a cop yelled at them to stop, the man in the white shirt ran, then wheeled around and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, smiling.

Smiled while he executed a man for no reason. But you're right, we should feel sorry for him.

For starters, how about a murder weapon? Maybe some fingerprints on the murder weapon?

The shell casings in both shootings matching is meaningless in this situation, because you don't have the gun they were fired from, and if you don't have the gun they were fired from how are you supposed to prove who fired them? You can't.

Bottom line: This case is based almost entirely on witnesses....and when your witnesses keep changing their stories, some citing police pressure, that is more than enough reasonable doubt to prevent a man from being executed.

I don't have the answer on how to deal with prisoners, but it's not the awful place you (and others) make it out to be. The death penalty is a far worse punishment than life in prison.

we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. i cant every see any situation where i would rather live out a hopeless life sentence without the possibility of parole than face the death penalty. it just seems to me like the easy way out. how are you going to repay your debt to society when youre dead? it makes no sense.

Listen, I work in the criminal justice system. I spend a lot of time in jails and prisons and dealing with the people who inhabit those places. Prison may not be a luxury resort, but it's better than some crapholes people on the outside live in. And they don't take the time in prison to "think about why they're there". They take the time to think of ways to attack one other, attack the officers, smuggle in drugs or other contraband. I understand you took your class on the legal system and think you know everything because quite frankly when I went through the same courses, I thought the same thing. When you actually make it out into the real world and see the reality of it on a daily basis come on back and talk about the poor prisoners.

My professor received a macarthur genius award to spend 10 years studying classification in the legal system and in particular with "death row" inmates in the south. im more inclined to buy into her analysis of the situation than yours, sorry. i'm not saying that prison is what it should be (IMO, more resources should be allocated to rehabilitation and education than to incarceration), but i still know that its no place i want to be, and that is simply my point.

And it's not necessarily physical memorials, but the sentiments of people like yourself (RIP Troy Davis) who would rather wish someone who committed a horrible crime rest in peace than the person he killed. F that. Troy Davis I hope you rot in hell where you belong. The world isn't all unicorns and lollipops, there are people out there who serve no functional purpose to society and are better off being separated from the people who are actually attempting to make the world a better place. Troy Davis was one of those people.

Where did I say this? This is the second time you've accused me of saying this. Can't I have sympathy for a man who has been executed and for the victim of a crime? its a very logical position if you're opposed to the death penalty, as i obviously am.

Smiled while he executed a man for no reason. But you're right, we should feel sorry for him.

Why do you keep quoting articles with no source? how am i supposed to know this is even a credible, non-biased source? I'd like to know exactly who saw this man SMILING when he supposedly pulled the trigger. that's a pretty significant detail to be able to recall so precisely.

Senor Penguin wrote:If that's the case then it's no wonder so many people are imprisoned in the U.S. - it seems like the system is built to push people with low-income into the prison system.

It would be much more sensible to establish an improved welfare system and invest more in crime prevention.

ding ding ding! we have a winner! incarceration rates have skyrocketed in the US since the 1980s, not necessarily because the action of crime has increased, but because the way we categorize and classify crime has increased in scope. furthermore, there is clear effort to remove judicial discretion in the us legal system, instead relying on protocol to determine the faith of a convict (this means that if you pee 3 times in public youre labeled in the same way as someone as someone who molested a child, a sex offender).

But you probably dont want to keep saying things like that Penguin, because you'll probably be labeled as socialist, anti-american, and find your self on a no fly list...

everest1 wrote:

I don't have the answer on how to deal with prisoners, but it's not the awful place you (and others) make it out to be. The death penalty is a far worse punishment than life in prison.

we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. i cant every see any situation where i would rather live out a hopeless life sentence without the possibility of parole than face the death penalty. it just seems to me like the easy way out. how are you going to repay your debt to society when youre dead? it makes no sense.

Listen, I work in the criminal justice system. I spend a lot of time in jails and prisons and dealing with the people who inhabit those places. Prison may not be a luxury resort, but it's better than some crapholes people on the outside live in. And they don't take the time in prison to "think about why they're there". They take the time to think of ways to attack one other, attack the officers, smuggle in drugs or other contraband. I understand you took your class on the legal system and think you know everything because quite frankly when I went through the same courses, I thought the same thing. When you actually make it out into the real world and see the reality of it on a daily basis come on back and talk about the poor prisoners.

My professor received a macarthur genius award to spend 10 years studying classification in the legal system and in particular with "death row" inmates in the south. im more inclined to buy into her analysis of the situation than yours, sorry. i'm not saying that prison is what it should be (IMO, more resources should be allocated to rehabilitation and education than to incarceration), but i still know that its no place i want to be, and that is simply my point.

Bolded part is key. You're not a criminal. Prison would be awful for you. However for the vast majority of people in prison, they're getting better benefits than they would if they were out of it. I've spoken with countless inmates (especially when I was new) trying to figure out why they keep ending up back in prison. Most of them don't mind it, and the reward of their criminal activities outweigh the punishment they receive. As for your professor, well congrats to her. Although I've personally seen how far apart "studies" and the real world can actually be.

And it's not necessarily physical memorials, but the sentiments of people like yourself (RIP Troy Davis) who would rather wish someone who committed a horrible crime rest in peace than the person he killed. F that. Troy Davis I hope you rot in hell where you belong. The world isn't all unicorns and lollipops, there are people out there who serve no functional purpose to society and are better off being separated from the people who are actually attempting to make the world a better place. Troy Davis was one of those people.

Where did I say this? This is the second time you've accused me of saying this. Can't I have sympathy for a man who has been executed and for the victim of a crime? its a very logical position if you're opposed to the death penalty, as i obviously am.

Smiled while he executed a man for no reason. But you're right, we should feel sorry for him.

Why do you keep quoting articles with no source? how am i supposed to know this is even a credible, non-biased source? I'd like to know exactly who saw this man SMILING when he supposedly pulled the trigger. that's a pretty significant detail to be able to recall so precisely.

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html

As one of the witnesses (a member of the Air Force) said, "You don't forget someone that stands over and shoots someone."

As far as credible, non-biased source...well the only thing you're going to find that's not biased is that statement from the Georgia Parole Board. Otherwise, the supporters of his death are going to have their slant, and the media and anti-death penalty people will have theirs.

Where did I say this? This is the second time you've accused me of saying this. Can't I have sympathy for a man who has been executed and for the victim of a crime? its a very logical position if you're opposed to the death penalty, as i obviously am.

You didn't say it. It's your lack of words that say it all.

And can we stop with the police-coercion. If you're going to entertain that, then why don't you entertain the idea that Davis' attorney's pressured the witnesses to say it wasn't him?

dansik wrote:And can we stop with the police-coercion. If you're going to entertain that, then why don't you entertain the idea that Davis' attorney's pressured the witnesses to say it wasn't him?

Mostly because police coercion, especially in the south, especially involving crimes where minorities or the poor are implicated in actions against white people/the rich, has quite a long and storied history..

Attorney coercion...not so much

I'm not even sure how attorneys would go about doing that, they aren't exactly in the same position of holding power and authority over the people that the police are

everest1 wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:If that's the case then it's no wonder so many people are imprisoned in the U.S. - it seems like the system is built to push people with low-income into the prison system.

It would be much more sensible to establish an improved welfare system and invest more in crime prevention.

ding ding ding! we have a winner! incarceration rates have skyrocketed in the US since the 1980s, not necessarily because the action of crime has increased, but because the way we categorize and classify crime has increased in scope. furthermore, there is clear effort to remove judicial discretion in the us legal system, instead relying on protocol to determine the faith of a convict (this means that if you pee 3 times in public youre labeled in the same way as someone as someone who molested a child, a sex offender).

But you probably dont want to keep saying things like that Penguin, because you'll probably be labeled as socialist, anti-american, and find your self on a no fly list...

I am a socialist to a certain degree and I do live in a country where social consciousness is held to a much higher degree than in the U.S. I have no problem paying taxes if it goes to universal health-care, free education and welfare that ensures people don't end up living on the street or in prisons. You could say I opt for social liberalism.

It seems like many politicians in the U.S. use communism as a scare tactic for anyone who proposes a slight raise of taxes and some sort of social consciousness. The fear mongering works well because a lot of Americans don't know that many countries abroad - especially rich ones with competitiveness ranking higher than the U.S. - actually have a highly prioritized social welfare system and high taxes.

One of the reasons I believe they don't know about this, is because they haven't taken an education - and how could they? It costs a fortune to just take a college degree if you aren't born into a wealthy family. With a better social security system in the U.S. - allowing them to take an education, regardless of their social and financial background - they wouldn't buy into such fear mongering.

You could actually say that having such a social security is a form of liberation and civil right. Unfortunately, the propaganda by the politicians is all about making it look like the exact opposite - the beginning of communism and the oppression that comes with it.