Re: Blackburn Rovers 4 - 3 Arsenal: Perfect example of how poor defending can cost you points

by tsgooner1 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:11

Oh i see, still he would be the last guy i would put there, i would rather have koscielny switch over and djourou play int he middle. or just have coquilne come on.

by Jay29 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:15

Thinking ahead, whatever confidence we had built up in the last week has now been lost, so we are going to be starting from square one again against Bolton.

It's a difficult situation to be in, since half the defence is new and needs time to build an understanding, but right now it's a detriment to our ability to see out games and get the results we need.

I really am scratching my head at the decision to play Santos over Gibbs. Santos has just arrived; doesn't speak English, has no experience in the Premier League and is lacking in match fitness. He's hardly ready to be starting games.

Gibbs was fit and ready to start the game and even if they're doubts about him, at the moment I'd play him over Santos.

Then bringing on Djourou for the injured Sagna... just why? Why put someone with no form or confidence in an unfamiliar position up against someone in good form? Makes no sesne whatsoever. Gibbs and Coquelin were on the bench: why were neither of them used?

Hell, this is where Eboue would have been useful but we decided to sell him and leave us with virtually no cover at right back. Neutral

by Emaharg Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:19

Just playing people in positions they can play make a world of difference as we found out when Roy Hodgson fired from Liverpool, all Kenny did when he came in was put people in positions they knew how to play, something Wenger should think about doing.

by Sushi Master Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:20

Yeah, our season was pretty much set after our transfer season.

We made some good signings but the best we can hope is to salvage the situation, we're not even at our previous level.

The core of all good teams start with defense, so at least next season we HAVE TO be stronger Laughing

by RealGunner Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:22

I was out of my seat when Santos crossed for mertesacker. I was read to throw my headphones on the wall and was halfway through taking my shirt off

then he missed... Sad

by SamuelJayC Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:23

I'm not shocked in the slightest. Seen all this bs before.

by Wilson37 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:24

Jenkinson is really good.. I dont mind Jenkinson replacing Eboue.. But unfortunately he was not on the bench..
And i feel there was no problem with the substitution.. it should be naturally djurou to come in todays match.. He is the most experienced one.. No one could expect or predict that he could be such a flop.. Gibbs could manage RB ? Dont know about Coquelin..
Btw.. Why no ratings posted in the first post..?

by Art Morte Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:28

One has to wodner: how much of our defensive frailties are down to the personnel? No matter who we buy, the players are making the same fundamental mistakes time after time. Surely this is a coaching issue.

I was thinking of mentioning this in General Section but then peeked in here and here we go:

Wenger has never struck me as a great or even good defensive manager.
It's pass-and-move and outscore-your-opponent style of play.
Arsenal were unlucky today at scoring two own goals (the offside goal could just as well have been onside), but still, there's a lack of the sort of "I will motha fork-king clear this ball" attitude and determination in Arsenal's defence.

I don't know who your coaching staff are after Wenger and Rice, but it seems to me Arsenal could really do with a real bad-ass defence coach - I for one can't imagine Wenger or Pat Rice shouting their guts out at defenders for going about their job with carelessness.

by Emaharg Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:31

Wilson37 wrote:Jenkinson is really good.. I dont mind Jenkinson replacing Eboue.. But unfortunately he was not on the bench..
And i feel there was no problem with the substitution.. it should be naturally djurou to come in todays match.. He is the most experienced one.. No one could expect or predict that he could be such a flop.. Gibbs could manage RB ? Dont know about Coquelin..
Btw.. Why no ratings posted in the first post..?

Hoilett is known for his pace and trickery, while we all know Djourou is not the quickest and his main asset is his strength in the air.

I don't know, personally I think Wenger needs to go his resistance to change anything sees us repetitively losing to the same issues.
And when people said the only thing keeping Nasri and Fabregas at Arsenal was Wenger, have now seen even those two know that nothing will change.
We have been bad at set pieces and conceding on the counter attack for 4 years, every person knows that and we will continue to be exploited in this fashion for the rest of the season.
Yes the players need to take responsibility as well but they can't exactly not do what Wenger is telling them to either.

by Jay29 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:36

What makes the situation worse is that the coaching set-up hasn't been changed at all for a couple of years. I don't think we even have a specialist coach for defending.

That's why it's so frustrating. It's the same mistakes every time: failure to defend set-pieces, failure to maintain a solid defensive line, failure to play a successful offside trap... every single season.

One could argue that putting Vermaelen in there will makes things better, and it would, but let's not forget that even when we had a back line of Sagna, Gallas, Vermaelen and Clichy we still conceded 40+ goals. Vermaelen can't marshall a whole defence on his own.

by Raptorgunner Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:46

RealGunner wrote:I was out of my seat when Santos crossed for mertesacker. I was read to throw my headphones on the wall and was halfway through taking my shirt off

then he missed...

Santos cross was crazy, I thought he scored at first, shame it did not go in.

by djoe26 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 17:58

GoonerJay29 wrote:

One has to wodner: how much of our defensive frailties are down to the personnel? No matter who we buy, the players are making the same fundamental mistakes time after time. Surely this is a coaching issue.

I've seen all those idiotic knee-jerk threads in the general section about Koscielny, Mertesacker, Song, et al. And I've seen all the tweets and forum posts about how bad they are, about how we should have signed more Premier League experience, about how slow Mertesacker is, about how bad Song is... it goes on and on, but let's be real here. You could have put the best defenders and the best holding midfielders in the same situation, and they would have made the same mistakes because that is the way they are being coached to play.

A back-line consisting of a player making his third appearance and a player making his first start is being told to hold a high-line and play an offside trap, something that requires great understanding and organisation. In what way is this wise?

Then our defensive midfielder is being told to get forward, influence the play, support the attack, even though there's an unreliable back-line that needs protection. Again, where is the logic behind that?

So while the players may not play well on the day, let's not understate the important of training, coaching and tactics to allow the team to defend properly. I get the impression we just throw them out there and say: "Go on, just defend."

Why did we just give Santos a start when Gibbs was doing okay? Not that Santos was awful or anything, but Gibbs has more experience playing with Koscielny and Sagna than Santos.

Why did we bring Djourou on for the injrued Sagna, when Coquelin has more experience playing right back? Djourou looked completely lost in that position.

There's just so much wrong with us defensively. It's baffling how these same issues keep coming out. It really is.

This is really frustrating not only for us but also for our players. We are doing well when it comes to attacking but defensively we are just not good enough. We can not win any match unless we really sort our defending.

Johan is having his worst time of his career, i dont know what happend to him but he did well last season. Santos isnt just ready yet and shouldnt have started today. Kos & Per did well though but both couldnt communicate.

Our midfield on other hand had great game. Song was unlucky to concede own goal but he really did well overall. Arteta and Ramsey did really well today according to me. Both were really creative and created some very good chances and Arteta did manage to score one.

Our attack was well managed. Gervinho was outstanding and deserved his goal. RVP did well today and his cross to Chamak was outstanding. We really should change our tactics to 4-4-1-1 and RVP should take the free role behind striker. He could be really creative and we will have alot of goals. Arshavin did okay but his freekick changed the whole game. I dont know why Wenger decided to start him over Walcott, could be because of his record against Blackburn?

Overall this was very dissappointing to lose the way we did and Wenger really should change the way we play.

by Wilson37 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 19:15

Yeah.. I too feel the lone striker formation needs to be changed.. 4-4-2.. And Chamakh/Walcott there with RVP.. Want to see more crosses coming in and Chamakh can put more into the net.. Chamakh fails badly when he plays the lone striker.. I feel that his skills are limited for such a role..

by Jay29 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 19:27

Chamakh played a lone striker for Bordeux and did well. He wasn't prolific, but he had a good understanding with Gourcuff and it was form in his final couple fo seasons for them that attracted us to him in the first place.

He has the attributes required to play a lone role up front, but is currently lacking form and confidence, not to mention the proper service. We saw today: van Persie struck a great cross in and Chamakh scored a world class header. That's his strength.

In saying that, I'm not sure if we should switch to 4-4-2. At least, I saw nothing in today's performance that suggested we should, because we failed defensively, not offensively, and I do not see how 4-4-2 could help us defensively.

by Emaharg Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 19:37

GoonerJay29 wrote:Chamakh played a lone striker for Bordeux and did well. He wasn't prolific, but he had a good understanding with Gourcuff and it was form in his final couple fo seasons for them that attracted us to him in the first place.

He has the attributes required to play a lone role up front, but is currently lacking form and confidence, not to mention the proper service. We saw today: van Persie struck a great cross in and Chamakh scored a world class header. That's his strength.

In saying that, I'm not sure if we should switch to 4-4-2. At least, I saw nothing in today's performance that suggested we should, because we failed defensively, not offensively, and I do not see how 4-4-2 could help us defensively.

If we play deep with Ramsey and Song sitting deep. Play RVP behind Chamakh in a free role sort of like Rooney.
Rely on Gervinho,Walcott,Arshavin and our wing backs to put the ball into the box.
It would be pretty much like what Man United play with Anderson and Cleverly spreading it to Nani and Young to provide for Welbeck, Rooney and Chico.
But in my opinion the root of this problem is our DM+CM's he leaves too much space in front of the back four and thats where we got punished vs Man United.

by Jay29 Sat 17 Sep 2011 - 19:48

What about Arteta and Wilshere? Both are better choices than Ramsey, yet both are too good to leave out.

Changing to 4-4-2 isn't really going to fix the issue of having a disciplined DM. In my opinion the only thing that needs changing about our current 4-3-3 is that one of the centre mids needs to support van Persie more and play higher up.

I'm very sure that this formation will look a ton better with Wilshere in there.

by Emaharg Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 0:44

GoonerJay29 wrote:What about Arteta and Wilshere? Both are better choices than Ramsey, yet both are too good to leave out.

Changing to 4-4-2 isn't really going to fix the issue of having a disciplined DM. In my opinion the only thing that needs changing about our current 4-3-3 is that one of the centre mids needs to support van Persie more and play higher up.

I'm very sure that this formation will look a ton better with Wilshere in there.

Yea it will definitely be better when Wilshere is there but the point I'm making is that he is not at the moment.
Arteta is very similar to Ramsey from what I have seen so far and not the creative outlet we needed.
We have not problems putting crosses into the box as our Wingbacks and Wingers are fantastic at making space and putting them in, the problem is when only RVP is in there it's a waste. We have Chamakh who is known for his ability with his head and RVP thrives playing off another striker and will allow him more space and time with the ball so maybe it's worth a go?
I'm just getting at the fact without an out and out creative midfielder the 433 really isn't that good. RVP has been isolated and Gervinho+Walcott are pretty much creating everything anyway.

by tsgooner1 Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 2:47

dont change the formation, did you see how well we were attacking. We just need to keep song back.

by lenear1030 Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 7:20

reading some of these responses, im guessing that you some of you dont realize that we DID play 4-4-2 yesterday (when Chamakh came on)

by beatrixasdfghjk. Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 7:26

lenear1030 wrote:reading some of these responses, im guessing that you some of you dont realize that we DID play 4-4-2 yesterday (when Chamakh came on)

I gave up watching before that :L

by mani88 Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 9:04

So when is Szczesny handing wenger a transfer request???

by beatrixasdfghjk. Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 9:06

mani88 wrote:So when is Szczesny handing wenger a transfer request???

Oh c'mon, I think he loves the club more than that.

by El Gunner Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 10:56

Yesterday was one of those fecking dreaded days! Australia already fecked me up emotionally when they lossed against Ireland (RUGBY) and then Arsenal completely fecked my soul out of my body! By the end of the match I was feeling nothing, nothing at all, I was literally drained out. Maybe it's also because of this b-sh!t, coz i'm getting used to it.

What can I say! We looked great the first half, should've lead 4-1. It was complete joy, we were preying on Blackburn's open defense.

Second half?-? -_- I don't know if it's bad luck or what? But ya'll know what happened. I'm juz saying: IF WE DIDN'T ZONAL MARK, BUT RATHER MAN MARKED, WE WOULD'VE WON THE MATCH!

Absolutely bullcrap, Mertesacker was horrible, Djourou was absolutely worse (can't even describe his horrible performance), Santos wasn't that solid also, but it's his first match, and for that, i'll take an exception.

Per also fecked up Andre's beautiful cross near the end, I was literally getting up to celebrate (looooool for a draw against Blackburn - bottom of the table) but that's how horrible our defending is that we have to fight hard to get at least a draw against a bottom of the log team.

I ABSOLUTELY BLAME ARSENE WENGER, BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD THIS CRAZY DEFENDING FOR A LONG TIME NOW, AND HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING IN TRAINING AND TACTICS TO CHANGE THIS SHIT

by Twoism Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 11:24

Watching Arsenal is like sleeping with the most beautiful woman in the world just to wake up to see she's a tranny. No excuse, it's dreadful performance, just when we get good a bit, good ol habit kick in.

by Sri Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 12:23

I am AMAZED.

HOW WEAK MINDED ARE YOU GUYS?

For a month now, (with an exception of the OT game), everyone here was singing about how good our defense was. Don't dare say you weren't. People spoke about how tough our defense is, how we are looking for 1-0s now and have the confidence to keep a 1 goal lead and get away with it, blah blah blah. Go through your own posts from previous matches.

And one match, where there are two freak own goals, and everyone is back to jumping at Wenger's throat, faulty defensive system, yadayadayada!? Wtf! Show some balls in sticking to your perspective instead of jumping ship in knee jerks. Who put the idea into your head? Sky Sports? Or was it Daily Fail?

I am not saying this team is flawless. Nor am I defending the result yesterday. In fact I hope that now AW realizes that 4-4-2 with counters is what the players we have are good at, not tiky taka. However, this post is not to identify the problems from yesterday, it is to say that you all should try not to diss the defense after one game. The same defense held on to a 1-0 lead away to Dortmund (Dortmund away is a MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher game than Ewood Park) for 87'.

by Gil Sun 18 Sep 2011 - 12:48

Speaking of Arsenal's defense did anyone else see Armand *bleep* Traore playing like a mix of Ashley Cole, Maldini and Roberto Carlos yesterday? Didn't know he had it in him

Maybe Wenger really is the root of all Arsenal's defensive problems after all.

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