BarcaKizz wrote:

@ Adit: Are you convinced they need the two-man protective cushion though?? The Senna-Xavi partnership was always better and in my opinion Xavi played better there. He's played too high up now in my opinion. Busquets is tactically very aware and in particular if they play Arbeloa thats a pretty strong defensive structure. I don't really see Alonso giving enough in defense to justify him being there ahead of someone who gives more in attack.

Tbh though, this is my opinion, and I was always a bigger fan of Aragones' team anyway.

Since their defense is even worse than before due to puyols absence and Pique-Ramos pairing is still in work,they do need that extra protection.Even with that conservative line up casillas faced two one on one with robben in a WC final,what are the possibility a single DM style will work better?

Alonso is a excellent reader of the game,even though he is bit slow he can make interceptions and tackles pretty easily.Also the physical presence required to prevent some National teams who plays with heart *england* *holand in final* etc..

Also alonso wasnt exactly a defensive player in spain,he was excellent with his ball distribution . His partnership with xavi was great throw out the the WC and he performed as good as Xavi in that tournament .
Aragones team was certainly more entertaining and deserved winners but they were dangerously direct team ,a good counter attacking team could have defeated them but they also played conservatively when faced counter attacking teams like italy and germany(thnx to aragones's knowledge).

You need little bit of conservative style to win international trophies.spain 2010,italy 2006,greece 2004,even brazil 2002 .

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Bill i disagree with one thing........

if your going to play 4-3-3 like your saying i honestly believe Busquets is the better option, ok hes not as talented as Alonso and doesnt have the range of passing that Alonso has but he's much better DM and has an almost telepathic understanding with Xaviesta. With Xaviesta or Cesc or Silva infront of him you dont need Alonso's passing because theres more enough playmakers there already. Its just overkill putting Alonso there imo also its sacrifacing defensive steel and awareness for another passer which is not needed.

Enrique should be given a chance imo, he's probably the best LB in the premier league so he deserves his chance in my opinion.

I dont agree with this.
Busquets has far more talent than Alonso.
All Alonso has over Busquets is the long pass.
Everywhere else Busquets is clearly better.
Far better touch,close control,dribbling ability,short passing,reading of the game etc.

harhar11 wrote:^ I think that Iniestas place on the team is a certainty, because for me he has been the best player on the spanish team since the WC. Against costa rica, when spain were losing, he carried spain on his shoulder and he was the reason why you drew in the end. Same thing against us(chile ), he came on and he won the game for you.

When will you understand that xabi alonso can't play as the lone DM? Why do you think that wherever he has gone, he has always had a partner. Its not that busquets is a better player than alonso, its that he is better as the lone DM han him.

So if you want to play with only 1 DM, which imo you must do, busquets is the guy.

Simply an excellent post. Agree with every word whole heartedly. Questioning Iniesta's place is happening because we have a few somewhat similar players of quality but considering what he has done in the past and his big match performer qualities, it's never going to be a question for Del Bosque. Has no one read that Del Bosque called Iniesta the best midfielder in the world?

Adit wrote:Since their defense is even worse than before due to puyols absence and Pique-Ramos pairing is still in work,they do need that extra protection.Even with that conservative line up casillas faced two one on one with robben in a WC final,what are the possibility a single DM style will work better?

Alonso is a excellent reader of the game,even though he is bit slow he can make interceptions and tackles pretty easily.Also the physical presence required to prevent some National teams who plays with heart *england* *holand in final* etc..

Also alonso wasnt exactly a defensive player in spain,he was excellent with his ball distribution . His partnership with xavi was great throw out the the WC and he performed as good as Xavi in that tournament .
Aragones team was certainly more entertaining and deserved winners but they were dangerously direct team ,a good counter attacking team could have defeated them but they also played conservatively when faced counter attacking teams like italy and germany(thnx to aragones's knowledge).

You need little bit of conservative style to win international trophies.spain 2010,italy 2006,greece 2004,even brazil 2002 .

Nice comments - especially about the need to be conservative. Beautiful football would not have won us against a brutal team like Netherlands. We showed we can fight it out as well. I will add a little more to why the double pivot has been important and can still continue to be important. Busquets, no matter how good a player he is, is not going to give all the qualities that Senna gave. Senna at Euro 2008 was so immense that he was Xavi's closest competitor for player of the tournament. Even more important is that Puyol then was at his prime and look at the Puyol of today who you don't know which matches he will be fit to play. We can't ignore the dearth of options at CB - probably our weakest position in terms of squad strength.

People underestimate llorente a bit. He's not just a target man, he has just as much ball skills as torres. He may not be fast at all but trust me he more then makes up for it with his strength and his huge size. He can let spain play centrally towards him and improve the overall link-up play.

Torres should not start at all. I just don't get why he won't play llorente. And where the hell is enrique

harhar11 wrote:

futbol_bill wrote:

harhar11 wrote:^ I think that Iniestas place on the team is a certainty, because for me he has been the best player on the spanish team since the WC. Against costa rica, when spain were losing, he carried spain on his shoulder and he was the reason why you drew in the end. Same thing against us(chile ), he came on and he won the game for you.

When will you understand that xabi alonso can't play as the lone DM? Why do you think that wherever he has gone, he has always had a partner. Its not that busquets is a better player than alonso, its that he is better as the lone DM han him.

So if you want to play with only 1 DM, which imo you must do, busquets is the guy.

In our system we don't play a DM. We play 1 or 2 deeper than others but we except end-to-end midfielders who initiate the play upfield with quick accurate and good vision passes. The Alonso partner is Xavi. In the last group play game, Alonso and Xavi were on together no Busquets and it worked perfectly. When Alonso first broke into the seleccion he was the lone deep MF. I know you have a bias towards Barca players but in my opinion Alonso is more valuable in the starting line-up than Busquets.

Then how come you(spain) always seem to struggle when xabi alonso plays there on his own?

I don't know what games you are referring to when you say they struggle. If you are referring to 1st half of CR game it wasn't due to Alonso it was two errors by Puyol and Casillas that cost the goals. I'm not saying Busquets is bad, I'm simply saying it's a tough decision for VDB as he wants Alonso, Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta in game and to go to 3 man MF one has to sit and of all 4, Busquets has the least experience and least all rounded skills. But I'm not offended if Busquets gets included at the expense of Alonso. I just think re the crticism that one of them has to sit.

With regards to the suggested 23 above, I think you are correct, but there are 2 decisions yet to be made. One is Alba vs Enrique and the other is, if they go with a 3 man MF, do they keep J. Martinez instead of adding Negredo (or even possibly Soldado). They won't make this decision until June and then of course there is always the possibility of injuries to be factored in.

futbol_bill wrote:

I don't know what games you are referring to when you say they struggle. If you are referring to 1st half of CR game it wasn't due to Alonso it was two errors by Puyol and Casillas that cost the goals. I'm not saying Busquets is bad, I'm simply saying it's a tough decision for VDB as he wants Alonso, Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta in game and to go to 3 man MF one has to sit and of all 4, Busquets has the least experience and least all rounded skills. But I'm not offended if Busquets gets included at the expense of Alonso. I just think re the crticism that one of them has to sit.

With regards to the suggested 23 above, I think you are correct, but there are 2 decisions yet to be made. One is Alba vs Enrique and the other is, if they go with a 3 man MF, do they keep J. Martinez instead of adding Negredo (or even possibly Soldado). They won't make this decision until June and then of course there is always the possibility of injuries to be factored in.

If you want some specific games, just ask mole, he knows more than me.

The things is, for me, spain look more fluid with Busquets as the lone DM.Alonso alot of the times will break up a play by making a 40-50 meter pass that gets intercepted or the player is to short to get to the ball because spain doesn't player with target players(although they have those kinds of player, like llorente).

Giggity5313 wrote:People underestimate llorente a bit. He's not just a target man, he has just as much ball skills as torres. He may not be fast at all but trust me he more then makes up for it with his strength and his huge size. He can let spain play centrally towards him and improve the overall link-up play.

Torres should not start at all. I just don't get why he won't play llorente. And where the hell is enrique

This is true, llorente has some crazy skills

Spoiler:

What a player he is

He's one of my favorite players for sure, I love how he plays. He works his ass off as well and gives 110%.

On xabi and busquets, I honestly have no preference. I'll say xabi because he's madridsta . Nah, I honestly wouldn't care.

There is a 1.5% chance of one of these four groups getting created for Euro 2012.

Possibility 1 - Spain, Germany, Portugal, France
Possibility 2 - Spain, Italy, Portugal, France
Possibility 3 - Netherlands, Germany, Portugal, France
Possibility 4 - Netherlands, Italy, Portugal, France

If one of these groups do get created, it will be the deadliest group of death that I have ever come across right since when I started following international football from WC 1990 onwards.

messixaviesta wrote:There is a 1.5% chance of one of these four groups getting created for Euro 2012.

Possibility 1 - Spain, Germany, Portugal, France
Possibility 2 - Spain, Italy, Portugal, France
Possibility 3 - Netherlands, Germany, Portugal, France
Possibility 4 - Netherlands, Italy, Portugal, France

If one of these groups do get created, it will be the deadliest group of death that I have ever come across right since when I started following international football from WC 1990 onwards.

The seeding of host countries is silly and makes for these groups of death, that should be avoided. It's not as bad for WC when they have 8 groups as opposed to the 4 with euro and it's even worse when they have 2 host countries. As I understand it, the objective is to give the host teams preferential stadiums and dates. This can be done without making them seeded teams, just as they do in WC draws to keep different continents away from each other.

I suspect they want more competition or new champions and thus putting the favorites together makes for elimination of some of them improving the odds for second tier teams.

In my opinion, this is just plaid dumb. I'm sure the world wide audience just wants to see the best teams meet in the elimination portion of the tournament. They may fill the stadium with a Poland - Ukraine final but I would think the television audience would be next to nothing.

bill, I completely agree that host nations should not be seeded.

Bump.

So after about 3 month's what's your take.

Silva has been tearing it up.....he seems the most conventional choice for RAM wehther it be 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

Big Question : Striker?

There are many choices , Torres is clearly not one of them at this point.

Solado
Llorente
Fabregas

No striker(Pedro/Mata)

We Know what each offers , and I don't know hether Villa will be ready for the Euros.

The problem is that none of these options are world class just yet, creating a possible bottleneck in attack.

My personal choice is Llorente though....I think he's the most complete....his aerial ability can give us a huge advantage, without exactly making us suffer in the conventional tiki taka system.

Thoughts?

Personally I feel Spain will always dominate the ball, its width and goals they may lack.

For this, I am a believer it has to be one of Alonso and Busi, not both.

I respect the advantages of a double pivot, but really its not needed at all and what it gives Spain in defensive security it negates in width and penetration.

Spain must realise that while its hard to have Alonso, Cesc, Silva or whoever on bench you have to make that sacrifice to give the team a better balance. I still think they can win with a double pivot, but why make it harder than it has to be?

Llorente for me should start, all considering, he is the best 9 Spain has right now.

The Barca trio in midfield, or Alonso ahead of Busi, at this point it dont even matter. One is better than both, no matter which one.

A real forward on one side, Pedro if he regains form.

Silva on the other.

Say We start with Llorente would you sacrifice one of the fullbacks for some more traditional width as in 3-5-2/3-4-3 with one traditional winger and one traditional full back.

............Pique........Puyol.......Ramos.........
Navas..................................................Enrique
.........................Busquets............................
..............Xavi........................Iniesta
...Silva...............................Pedro
...........................LLorente.............................

Or do you think that Silva and Iniesta will be able to exploit his aerial ability....particularly with the help of ENrique/whoever and Ramos.

I admit....I really want to see Ramos in the middle.He's clearly lost some pace and I'm no longer comfortable with him on the right.As you know I'm quite infatuated with him at the centre.

If we keep the ball as planned Pique and Ramos should be able to handle anything on either side before it materializes with their superior anticipation.

Of course the suggested line up will notm actually go out as a 3-5-2 lol but rather a traditional 4-3-3 , I just think they should maybe look to put people on the field who can adjust into these roles.

352?

If the opponant plays 2 strikers, then I am all for it. Otherwise, probably not.

This thread died a while ago but...

CELEBRATE.

Alonso played well for his abuse that I put on him before this match. His passing wasn't that great though but he made it up with his pressing and his defense. Pique and Ramos both had a good defensive game. Casillas again was brilliant and saved Spain at times in the second half especially when Di Natalie had that shot at him. Silva wasn't that great on the flanks but in th middle. Xavi had the best game in the tournament and his passing was brilliant. Assist to Alba, definately assist of the tournament! Iniesta was brilliant as always and his through ball to Fabregas to Silva