Hapless_Hans wrote:

El Gunner wrote:what have we seen from Sancho so far to determine he is not shit?

3 fantastic seasons don't matter just because of 5 poor months in a new league and in a shit team that is dragging every individual down?

get out of here with that bundesfrauden

I think it's very clear that Sancho is a rarely talented player, and I'm only speculating, but he didn't seem like a good, tactical fit for this Man United team in the first place, and I imagine there's a reason behind why his performance level has dropped so much, not only for United, but for the England national team as well. I also can't tell if he's able to play in a rigid system, as opposed to having the freedom to roam. I hardly ever saw him not drift out of his position at Dortmund, and he seemed to thrive with that positional freedom.

Man United's transfers and general team building over the past decade have probably been the worst I've ever seen in a top club that doesn't actually have financial issues. Whoever's in charge, evidently doesn't seem to be aware that you can't just throw random players into a team and expect them to excel at the same things, or play anywhere on the pitch. You can't build a possession based team around a squad that only has 1 or 2 players who are good at passing the ball, and you can't expect a team to play a high-pressing game, when half of the team aren't a good fit for it. Who's building this team? I recognize Bruno Fernandes as their most successful signing of the past decade, and even though he's a good player, I think that's pretty embarrassing for such a powerful, wealthy club.

El Gunner wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

El Gunner wrote:what have we seen from Sancho so far to determine he is not shit?

3 fantastic seasons don't matter just because of 5 poor months in a new league and in a shit team that is dragging every individual down?

get out of here with that bundesfrauden

Let's not forget Smith Rowe flopped at RB Leipzig, no doubt Saka wouldn't be able to hack it at, say, Frankfurt, either

Put all these struggling players under Klopp and see the magic

Nishankly wrote:Put all these struggling players under Klopp and see the magic

I would actually love to see that.

He's an arrogant always blabbering mad dinosaur man but damn he gets the best out of almost every player he signs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYnkfgYOQI8

Nishankly wrote:He's an arrogant always blabbering mad dinosaur man but damn he gets the best out of almost every player he signs.

Well, I realize that this is a controversial opinion, but I firmly believe that the quality and composition of a squad, in other words the team building, matters far more than the capability of the team's manager, so I would genuinely love to see Klopp or any other highly esteemed manager attempt to turn this Man United side around. I don't doubt that he is capable of nurturing players, but I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to the general claim that a manager can magically turn any given player into a superstar. Superstars appear primarily through excellent scouting, whether it's by the manager or the collective effort of the club. There are exceptions, but I don't believe those exceptions are indications of some sustainable ability that any single manager might possess. This modern, miraculous "man management" talent that I keep reading about, seems about as legit as Essential Oils.

I'd be willing to bet that if you swapped Rangnick and Klopp's positions, their teams would be in the exact same spots. The difference would be that Liverpool have players that are capable of pressing high as a collective, and Man United are going through their second demonstration of how incapable they are at it.

I don't believe that getting the best out of Man United's individual players is something they absolutely need to address right now. Their most urgent issue is to make the players they have, who I don't believe excel at anything but counter-attacking football, play something else than counter-attacking football since the inclusion of CR7 poses a defensive risk in such a setup. I'm not gonna go out of my way to quote it, but several sources claimed that Rangnick was an alpha type who would have the balls to bench Ronaldo. That remains to be seen. Like so many other things from a managerial standpoint, I believe that's a decision that isn't so conveniently easy that it just "takes balls".

I'm not going to be an armchair manager and claim that I know better than someone who actually knows how a team works from the inside, but I firmly believe that Man United played their most effective, most cohesive brand of football when they relied on the speed of their forwards for counter attacks before CR7 came along. Ronaldo has scored some clutch goals since then, but people must be blind if they can't see how much the actual performance level has declined since his arrival.

No Thimmy, you have no idea about Klopp and what he has done at Liverpool or which players has he sacrificed to obtain this system. This is what Klopp signed up for and played for 9 months because he did not care about half season reviews. If you are going to belittle him so be it. I just remember this guy deleted 30 goals a season from Fabinho and Wijnaldum so that they made up a system he wanted, both took about 5 months to displace a Milner.

I'm not belittling him, at all. I'm a big fan of Klopp, what he has achieved at Liverpool, and what he's still doing with the team. If anything, I'm belittling the claim that a manager, any manager, can turn any given player into a top performer. That's literally what I just said. If you hadn't mentioned his magical ability to get the best out of players, I wouldn't have mentioned it either. I've seen that claim being applied to Pep as well, and it sounds almost religiously farfetched to me. Thanks for replying in a civil manner, by the way. I was honestly prepared for Ad Hominem lol.

If you're referring to the part about Rangnick and Klopp changing positions, that's purely based on the assumption that Rangnick would be able to at least keep the status quo at Liverpool. I've noticed that Hans doesn't seem to be much of a fan of Rangnick, but I wouldn't expect there to be any question marks regarding his ability to make the team tick, as he invented the Gegenpressing style that the team has already been drilled into. I'd be far more hesitant to assume that Klopp or anyone would else would be able to untangle the team building situation at Man United. I can't imagine their situation changing substantially without players going in and players going out.

Surprised I was civil there yay!

But why are you comparing "his" magical ability to Pep? We can go signing by signing and the respect for Klopp only increases for a weighted price compared to what Pep has spent. Klopp isn't put on a high horse for no reason, there have been mid table managers who have spent more than him but he made signings and made us fans shut up to play a system. Fabinho, Hendo, Gini in their prime are basically a 30 goal 20 assists midfield on proven stats, he turned it into a 5 goal 3 assists midfield. The problem at United is that their top 5 players are attackers and they cannot play together so, someone like Tuchel would not have even signed Ronaldo.

Klopp's first 5 games at Liverpool included smashing Chelsea 1-3 away and then league leaders City 1-4 away with a squad that could not even qualify for the CL

You are trying to bring him down to the level of having 80m players along side a Cavani, Ronaldo etc

For the love of all that is good, please forget about Klopp. I'm not comparing Klopp to Pep! I said that this new man management ability that some people casually throw around these days, has been applied to Pep as well. The first time I heard it was when people started using it to describe Pochettino. I made the argument back then, that Son Heung Min was a highly talented player already when he was signed from Leverkusen, but I suppose the man management theory is more romantic. I'm not comparing Pochettino to Klopp, by the way. You're focusing on things that never crossed my mind.

Nishankly wrote:someone like Tuchel would not have even signed Ronaldo.

I've mentioned this before, but transfer decisions for clubs are, in the vast majority of cases, a process that's made between a sporting director, club scouts, economic advisors and the manager. The manager can give his input on what he wants and needs, but ultimately, they won't have the final say on who gets signed. I don't mean to offend you, but I'm not sure why you assume that Tuchel wouldn't have signed Ronaldo. That wouldn't be his call to make, unless he had an exclusive clause in his contract that gave him full control over transfers. That would be a risky move to make by a club, and I'm not sure if it's ever been done before, but it was once claimed by various sports media that Mourinho had such a clause in his contract when he went from Inter to Real Madrid.

Thimmy wrote:

Nishankly wrote:He's an arrogant always blabbering mad dinosaur man but damn he gets the best out of almost every player he signs.

Well, I realize that this is a controversial opinion, but I firmly believe that the quality and composition of a squad, in other words the team building, matters far more than the capability of the team's manager, so I would genuinely love to see Klopp or any other highly esteemed manager attempt to turn this Man United side around. I don't doubt that he is capable of nurturing players, but I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to the general claim that a manager can magically turn any given player into a superstar. Superstars appear primarily through excellent scouting, whether it's by the manager or the collective effort of the club. There are exceptions, but I don't believe those exceptions are indications of some sustainable ability that any single manager might possess. This modern, miraculous "man management" talent that I keep reading about, seems about as legit as Essential Oils.

I'd be willing to bet that if you swapped Rangnick and Klopp's positions, their teams would be in the exact same spots. The difference would be that Liverpool have players that are capable of pressing high as a collective, and Man United are going through their second demonstration of how incapable they are at it.

I don't believe that getting the best out of Man United's individual players is something they absolutely need to address right now. Their most urgent issue is to make the players they have, who I don't believe excel at anything but counter-attacking football, play something else than counter-attacking football since the inclusion of CR7 poses a defensive risk in such a setup. I'm not gonna go out of my way to quote it, but several sources claimed that Rangnick was an alpha type who would have the balls to bench Ronaldo. That remains to be seen. Like so many other things from a managerial standpoint, I believe that's a decision that isn't so conveniently easy that it just "takes balls".

I'm not going to be an armchair manager and claim that I know better than someone who actually knows how a team works from the inside, but I firmly believe that Man United played their most effective, most cohesive brand of football when they relied on the speed of their forwards for counter attacks before CR7 came along. Ronaldo has scored some clutch goals since then, but people must be blind if they can't see how much the actual performance level has declined since his arrival.

Of course managers are capable of getting the best out of players, that's pretty much their primary job description. Team composition and squad building are also part of the managers responsibility in most cases, particularly in england where the figure of the sporting director is smaller.

From the examples in Serie A/Italy that I'm most familiar with, what someone like Conte does is extremely clear in terms of getting the best out of his players and taking them up a level. Arriving and winning league titles with Juve, Chelsea, and Inter in his first season (or second season in the last case) is huge, and done with significant examples of players improving with him. Players like Bonucci, Barzagli, Giaccherini, Asamoah, Marchisio, etc. really blossomed under him and turned up a level. They will all say it too, as Lukaku loves to do Basically all of our player from the transition of 7th place to winning with Conte say the same, he instilled a different kind of mentality and transformed the dressing room. The stories from this time at Juve (by Pirlo and Buffon for example) show the different level of man management, communication, and mentality from before and after Conte. Pep seems to be a bit similar in this too.

Even more clear for a manager like Gasperini. Atalanta is a revolving door where he develops tons of players that grow and overachieve. A lot has to do with squad building, but not just that. Players like Zapata, Pasalic, Muriel, Ilicic, etc. that were a bit "lost" from their inital talent and hype finally become the expected version of themselves under Gasp. Its not an accident that they keep breaking club records and getting to CL with a tiny budget and constantly selling players.

Inzaghi is another one like this. What he did with Lazio is big, particularly with Immobile, Sergej, and most of all Luis Alberto. Its why I posted from the moment that rumors started that Calhanoglu would be a success for Inter. He found the right manager there.

Allegri is less capable of this imo. He is more about the tactical setup. Still he works closely to players, most visibly at the moment with Bernardeschi. He had a total mental block for like a year and a half and now is becoming one of our key players very much because of man-management (same as with Mancini, as Bernardeschi himself says it).

That statement about Klopp and Rangnick swapping jobs and everything staying the same is a huge overrating of Rangnick or underrating of Klopp, but Nish already addressed it.

Nishankly wrote:someone like Tuchel would not have even signed Ronaldo.

Yet Tuchel signed Lukaku.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

El Gunner wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:


3 fantastic seasons don't matter just because of 5 poor months in a new league and in a shit team that is dragging every individual down?

get out of here with that bundesfrauden

Let's not forget Smith Rowe flopped at RB Leipzig, no doubt Saka wouldn't be able to hack it at, say, Frankfurt, either

sure, let's judge the 3 appearances of an 18 year old his first time in a foreign country

Defending Sancho is a waste of time. He will be a world beater quite soon as he barely is being played correctly and on his second coach now in United. New circumstance and style and is just 21. More talented than any young English player at the moment and its not even close.

and that's how you tell on yourself, lads and gentlemen - letting the rest of us know you don't know ball

Saka and Foden are as equally talented and better than Sancho.

Winter is Coming wrote:Saka and Foden are as equally talented and better than Sancho.

Nah. Sancho is better than both of them. They're both really great, mind you.

Sancho is an odd choice for a scapegoat. United has much bigger problems.

Glory wrote:

Nishankly wrote:someone like Tuchel would not have even signed Ronaldo.

Yet Tuchel signed Lukaku.

In that team, United did not need Ronaldo, your best part of that Solksjaer squad was the attack which was going for you and the main disappointments were Midfield and Defense. So what I was saying was Tuchel at United would not have signed Ronaldo (ofcourse he will win you games but he's currently winning you games you aren't supposed to be struggling in) especially after spending on someone like Sancho who fit your system. That leads the room to bigger arguments about why you signed him emotion etc but I am not going there since that is a problem you have created by yourself and your managers are supposed to fix it and it seemingly a very tough job.

Chelsea were crying out loud for a striker last season and still are with most of their goals coming from non scoring players even this season. Signing Ronaldo or Lukaku at Chelsea was logical regardless if it were Tuchel or Big Sam.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Winter is Coming wrote:Saka and Foden are as equally talented and better than Sancho.

Nah. Sancho is better than both of them. They're both really great, mind you.

Better than Foden? I don't see it. But I don't watch much Bundesfodder.

Foden is incredible.

Smith Rowe is way better than Sancho too

El Gunner wrote:Smith Rowe is way better than Sancho too

Yea lets just compare a boy in a mid-table transitional club who has performed for half a season to Sancho who has had 3 straight world class seasons and just plain more ability to take the game by himself.

Both who happen to be the same age by the way.

Of course you'll bank on how he has been underwhelming so far in a United let by Ole and Ramrod Ragnick, capitalising lets use the word here but I do admire your loyalty to your club player he is no doubt fantastic.

But in the end there is no comparison.