Re: The Official Real Madrid 21-22 Match Day Thread

[futbol_bill]

Lol at the missing rating!

[halamadrid2]

Perch probably just forgot about him. I mean he didn't exactly stick out

[farfan]

Fair enough. But I didn't see Asensio do anything that warrants more than a 1 tbh. Yes he did score a couple of screamers but he contributed nothing apart from that and was so selfish too. Even got booed. He is a weak minded selfish prick

Double digit goals in a league-winning season is not nothing

[futbol_bill]

You realize that Jovic  Mariano, Hazard and even Bale received higher ratings. The bias against him is taking on unreal assessments for the 3rd highest scorer on team!

[sportsczy]

Asensio played well for like 1 month and got a lot of those goals then, no? He wasn't bad, he wasn't great. He's like Nacho.

[halamadrid2]

Na don't disrespect Nacho like that. Nacho could come in and play a CL final without a problem. Asensio on the other hand is too scared to pass forward, can't dribble, isn't particularly fast, never tracks back and doesn't offer an outlet when when Dani and Militao get pressed not to mention he only thinks about himself and getting his goals.

Only 2/3 out of those goals even mattered to us. When Rodrygo couldn't make the position his own Asensio was getting consistent starts and Carlo got tired of him real quick. Suddenly he stopped featuring in CL even from the bench. I'll never forget those 2 QSG games and that pass back near assist he had against cant remember which team it was (got the winner in that game though so sort of made up for it)

Why do you think we are after a RW, neither Asensio nor Rodrygo have convinced. Rodrygo at least steps up to the plate and always works really hard. Asensio goes hiding when the going gets tough and never helps in the press.

He is one of those players that'll be forgotten about quick when he leaves despite scoring in a CL final and 2 absolute belters against Barca in the Super Cup

[Perucho21]

Lol I legit forgot it wasnt deliberate

I'd give him a 5.5

Scored goals and won some games but the PSG tie is what killed any momentum he had going for him

In that tie, the whole world not only saw his offensive setbackks but also saw his nonexistant defensive contributions. People shitted on CArvajal for failing to mark Mbappe but Asensio literally offered no help in tracking back and was jogging most of the time. A huge factor that led to the Fede at RW solution

[halamadrid2]

Camavinga is an absolute stud

[Turok_TTZ]

Preseason and all but how did madrid concede 2 to Club America?

If only Club America put this much effort against the minnows of liga mx. My family won't shut up about this match for a good while yeah.

Benzema pleases me. Looks like the decline won't be this year at least.

[halamadrid2]

Benz comes in and immediately scores. Hazard on the other hand........

Thought we played really well in the second half. We were alright in the first. But same problems still exist. Kroos lets players bypass him far too easy and my nan is better on the ball than Casemiro

Camavinga has impressed me so far and I won't be the least bit dissapointed if we offer Ceballos a new contract. He's never lacked effort and the Ceballos-Tcho-Cama-Valverde midfield in the second half was awesome. Cama seems to have taken on the creative mantle

Still want to see far more from Tcho. But this half was so much better than the one against Barca

Liked the Militao-Rudiger partnership and Alaba is 10x the player at LB than CB but weak Carlo hasn't got the balls to tell Alaba to shift over because he isn't a very good CB

[The Madrid One]

Watching some of the preseason footage of Camavinga, Tchouameni, and Valverde has only reinforced some long standing ideas i've had regarding all of them. Additionally, as i've looked around in Spanish footy forums and Spanish Twitter I have interestingly found several interesting opinions that strongly match with my own. in particular, Fabian Pinero (respectable football analyst) has a good video with Inaki Angulo where he talks about Tchouameni, Camavinga, and Valverde.

For those who understand Spanish:



Here are some of thoughts.

1. As Valkyrja mentioned in the Tchouameni thread, Tchouameni wasn't really necessary considering we already had Valverde and Camavinga. I don't really like the purchase of Tchouameni all that much because he arguably limits the different variables that the team could have tried with Camavinga and Valverde and he arguably limits our play in general.

Here Om Arvind (another analyst with a respectable following) wrote an interesting enough analysis article on Tchouameni where he mentions some of his weaknesses, and I agree wholeheartedly.

https://tacticalrant.substack.com/p/tchouameni-analysis-scouting-weird-profile?utm_source=%2Fprofile%2F36461189-om-arvind&utm_medium=reader2

The biggest weakness is that Tchouameni is not "press resistant." He is not particularly nimble or agile for the body turn or when it comes to escaping pressure in tight spaces. His technique with the ball and nimbleness to move and maneuver his body is not particularly good and that limits his whole creative game, as well as the team's. His progressive carry stats are also inflated when placed under context and his passing is more than functional actually but not in the deep lying playmaker sort of territory. The fact that Tchouameni is a pretty heavy and stiff player with his body is of course connected to his ability to position and move his body which in turn has an effect on his passing and zones of action on field.

All in all Tchouameni is very much in the Casemiro mold, mostly either a defensive double pivot or destroyer single pivot with some vertical passing prowess but in a functional sense for a heavy and stiff destroyer. Tchouameni can nonetheless end up being a monster with us in the Casemiro sense, but his profile is limiting in several ways. He's not a box to box. People saying he's press resistant are off the mark.

2. A lot of people have a wrong concept of Camavinga. In some ways positionally he's more of a Kroos than Modric. Camavinga is not so much a player who thrives in half spaces in between the lines and who can generate lots of play moving around the edge of the opponent's box when under pressure. He's more of a behind the ball player and positionally he's very much either a creative double pivot type of CM, he could develop to be a well rounded single pivot with playmaking ability, or he can be a right center midfielder "interior" that nonetheless spends most of his time in the "behind the ball" sector of the pitch on the right to middle zone. Kind a like how Kroos stays in a certain pocket in the LCM zone and sometimes comes forward but doesn't live in between the lines, that's kinda what Camavinga is about positionally.

Having said this that is why I didn't appreciate watching Carlo play Camavinga as an LCM in both preseason games so far. If you go watch all historical footage of Camavinga it is a fact he is mostly an RCM/CM/DM sort of zone player because of his body positioning profile. With Rennes he mostly played either DM or RCM. He's NOT an LCM, it's clear that it's harder for him to position his body and his angles are closed off from there imo. Plenty of people mention how he could develop into a Redondo type of DM who could allow for some rich possibilities as a DM. Well that's blocked now with the expensive Tchouameni signing.

3. Valverde is on the stiff and heavy side himself, which is why i've always said that aside from his workhorse right midfielder role any other future of his, either as a DM, double pivot, or Interior, would come from the left side of the pitch behind the ball. Valverde is too stiff of a player to play in between the lines and he doesn't maneuver his body all to well when played as RCM, which is why he's hardly ever had a great creative game from RCM in comparison to Modric. Valverde gets compared to Gerrard or Lampard by some but in terms of his body profile if anything he reminds me of a Ballack, who was also long legged and stiff and who also could go up and down but clearly worked best as a behind the ball LCM/ double pivot/DM sort of player as he got older.

if you want to play Tchouameni, Valverde, and Camavinga together the ideal placement would be

Tchouameni (DM)
Camavinga (RCM) and Valverde (LCM)

But then still that outing lacks some press resistance and more importantly lacks a more creative and nimble in between the lines final third sort of creative presence. And both either Camavinga and Valverde still have to develop their tempo setting distribution side more.

Which is why I agree with Fabian Pinero that the ideal seems to field only two of the three at a time, which again makes me feel like the Tchouameni signing for that price and for the type of starting profile that his transfer price demands was not truly necessary or the best course of action. Camavinga and Valverde could have been a double pivot or Camavinga could have been developed into more of the mainstay DM and other pieces could be brought into midfield.

Meh, this is a long discussion sort of deal and we can definitely win stuff with a Tchouameni type, as proven with Casemiro, but he's not the generational profile that his price leads to infer imo, and he's also limiting in relevant aspects, but granted he also brings plenty of elite factors, some of which (his defensive side obviously) he seems like a Savant at, as Om Arvind points out.

[halamadrid2]

Interesting take

I think if you look at it in a broader sense then you have to be of the opinion that Tcho is a must. If we continue playing Alaba as a LB like we saw against America then you'll definitely need a Tcho type to cover which he did against America. Sort of like how Casemiro covered for Marcelo in his prime.

I think Camavinga is a diamond in a rough and there are so many ways you can form him. He has it all. He can easily become our creative spark. He has already slowly slowly taken up the creative mantle from Modric. He couldn't be further away from Kroos imo. None of our new players close to Kroos because he can dictate the tempo from a standing position. Camavinga attacks alot more than Kroos and gets in the box alot more than both Kroos and Modric. He is a fantastic players that can play anywhere in the midfield.

Valverde is pretty much the finished product. So what you see is what you get. He isn't one who'll form a triangle and do give and gos. Instead he'll take the ball and break the lines with his runs and take shots from distance

I also agree that I'd like to see Valverde on the left. He is direct and could form a good partnership with Vini. Rodrygo is more of a 1-2 passing player and Camavinga could form a great partnetship with him

Ceballos is another intriguing case. He fits in like a hand in a glove in the midfield we played yesterday. Especially if we want someone to play teams that press high then Ceballos is one I'd like to see in there

I was not happy with Tcho hiding against Barca. Its his job to go down and offer himself as an outlet which he failed to do. Ceballos against America was going down all the time to offer himself as an outlet. I really liked it especially since it looks like Tcho isn't that quick with his passes yet but we definitely need him that's for sure. Having Casemiro coincides with one of the greatest CL periods in out history. Even when he is slowing down he goes and puts dominant performances against City and Liverpool something we needed.

[sportsczy]

Valverde is right footed. He can't play left imo. His style is to run at full speed and cross at full speed. He's not built to stop and get back on his strong foot. Cama has to take over the mantle on the left.

[futbol_bill]

Doesn’t he play on left for his NT and I’ve heard it stated that he is far more effective for his NT?

[Perucho21]

Yes he plays LCM for Uruguay. Had a MOTM vs Peru in that position not too long ago

[The Madrid One]

Regarding Camavinga, upon watching plenty of footage and listening to plenty of analysis from respectable football people like Fabian Pinero, Miguel Quintana, Alvaro Benito, and Andres Onrubia, my impression is that he is Redondo-like in terms of player profile. Similar height, similar type of left footedness, similar type of body movement, and overall similar technical, physical, and positional profile. Camavinga still has much more to prove of course. I see him as mostly a "detras del balon" behind the ball player with his ideal positions being as an RCDM in a double pivot, a DM in a single pivot, or as an RCM interior in a 433 with nonetheless more Kroos-like movements and zones of action than Modric-like. I think that because he has some wiry flair to his movements, some press resistance, and good turning ability, people think he's like a Black Modric or Seedorf if you will, but I don't think that's the case. I don't think he's a box to box player or a player whose game is based around breaking static lines through carrying the ball with acceleration and dribbling. I also don't think he's much of a between the lines player or much of a going behind the defense with depth and trying stuff on the flanks type of player either. And most of the times he's ever near the edges of the opponent's box is when the team is already set on the opposing half while the opposing team is already defending in a low block. That's not between the lines play and you would never call Camavinga a transformed attacking midfielder. That's a bit of a clue right there. He has no history as a final thirds type of player.

On top of this, in his presentation a year ago he said that he felt he was mostly comfortable playing in front of the defense and Carlo more or less only played him as a single pivot or double pivot last season. There are some runs like against City that he made but that's a counter attack sort of run with open space and an open channel, that's circumstantial sort of stuff and there's plenty of footage of Kroos doing the same but you'd never call him a ball carrying box to box ala Modric or Kovacic. Pinero and Onrubia also point out that some of his worst playing with Rennes was during the 20/21 season when Nzonzi was the DM and Camavinga was played as an advanced attacking interior, aka as an attacking centre midfielder between the lines. They both state that he seemed lost and nullified and that they see Camavinga as more of a behind the ball player mostly playing from the first two thirds of the pitch and not into or "behind" the last third. Even in the two preseason games where he played as LCM he did a lot of moving towards the center circle to pick up the ball and most of his final third touches were quick one twos and if more elaborate were made once the other team was already in more or less a low block.

Again, he reminds me of





As for Valverde, as much of a fan I am of his I can be the first one to say that he's not too nimble for the turn or for positioning his body, nor too refined with the ball in his feet or when under pressure in tight spaces. As an RCM he's never had a brilliant creative game as far as i'm concerned, if anything I think his most criticized run of games were the games he played as an RCM during the COVID return at the latter stages of the 19/20 season. He's not built for moving well from that angle of the pitch in tight spaces imo. Starting with Zidane he was used as an RM (right midfielder) who did a bit of everything to help compensate several problems down the right flank and arguably his most stellar game ever has been the PSG game at the Bernabeu where we played a 4141ish type of shape with Valverde taking care of the entire right flank while Isco and Hazard free played. If not an RM I feel he looks kinda bad as an RCM, other than his workhorse and transitional attributes. An example of this is the game from a month and a half ago against Mexico. He played 25 minutes as an RCM and then his Uruguay manager must have verbally switched him because after the first 25 minutes he switched to LCM and was much more ever present playing from a pocket and angles where he could feel more comfortable.

Thing is, he's never had the chance to develop his play as a behind the ball center midfielder in Madrid. Only played there with Lopetegui in pre season and with Solari. Also with Zidane in the very beginning. If switched to LCM maybe he could develop his ball playing more while being better positioned for shooting and he could still run up and down the flank helping in attack and defense. His crossing and running behind the defense would look different but I think he'd probably still provide the most depth in a midfield shared with Tchouameni and Camavinga (inverted). With Uruguay he shows potential as a well rounded left sided double pivot or left interior but he's never been able to really polish his playmaking. He'll never be as refined as Kroos granted but he could evolve to do more than what we see when he barely plays there in the first place.



Still, I think a Tchouameni-Camavinga-Valverde could possibly not cover enough different heights and would need more inside channel play from the wide forwards, the striker, and/or an added tip to a diamond. I would personally see Camavinga as LCM and Valverde as RCM as probably sub optimal, particularly for Camavinga for who we don't have much if any evidence proving otherwise so far.

Edit: After some perusing, I see Casciavit wrote a great post mirroring what i'm saying in the general football forum, very good post and I agree regarding Camavinga's awkward left footedness limiting him. I wonder how adjustable that is. The way he positions his body and handles the ball is limiting and it closes off angles and possibilities and probably has significant influence on him not being able to play more comprehensively in final third positions. It is thus coherent why he mostly plays off from the right side of the pitch. That's probably the most awkward thing to work on in regards to becoming a great deep lying playmaking single pivot as well, because he has enough of an engine and physicality ceiling.

[Cyborg]

Camavinga looked good in the last two matches

Looking to see a Modric Tchou Camavinga midfield in this Juve game

[halamadrid2]

Carlo trialled the team that'll start against Frankfurt. So the wait to see different midfield combinations will continue

[Cyborg]

Camavinga looks too good to bench now tho.

His care of of the ball is really good.

This cannot be another season of the same midfield.

You can see the difference in energy with Valverde Tcho Cama. Way better, much more of what I want to see in a midfield.

[futbol_bill]

I believe this year will be a transitional year in which there are no set midfielder starters. All of them, including the 7th, Ceballos, will play!

Actually, the only players on squad that won’t get a lot of minutes will be Asensio, the backup CF that is set to be signed, Vallejo, Lunin and to a lessor extent, Lucas, Nacho, Ceballos, the later three depending upon injuries

[halamadrid2]

I actually think Carlo really likes Ceballos. I think he might play a great role next season. I see Valverde playing more as the 4th midfielder rather than in a midfield 3. We'll see how it plays out but wouldn't be surprised if Ceballos solidifies himself in the midfield rotation

Lucas is the direct back up for injury prone Dani. He'll likely play alot as we manage Dani's minutes. Nacho always plays alot no matter who is ahead of him in the pecking order. Next season will be no different

As much as we dislike the idea, Asensio will probably play alot as nobody really makes that RW their own and Asensio and his selfishness will try to score as many as he can

The only ones I see playing peanut minutes next season are Mariano, Odri, Lunin and Vallejo no matterhow many injuries we have. We'll probably play players out of position instead of fielding thise players.

[futbol_bill]

Mariano, Odriozola will both be gone! I agree with you re Lucas, Nacho and Ceballos. The experiment of Vallejo as a fullback last week was successful, so he will get some minutes if injuries mount up.

An interesting fact is lineup limitations of 18 players. Even with the smaller squad size, with no injuries, the first names for going to the stands are Vallejo, Asensio and Ceballos!

[halamadrid2]

I thought LaLiga would continue with their 12 man sub bench next season as the 5 sub rule has been made permanent.

I may be wrong but I haven't read anywhere that the permitted numbers on the bench will be reduced

We have 25 first team players with 3/4 rumoured/due to leave. They are:

Reiner
Odriozola
Mariano
Asensio perhaps and/or Vallejo. But we'll likely sign a CF if Asensio leaves

[futbol_bill]

I didn’t realize the bench squad size had changed with the 5 sub rule!

With the names you mentioned, Reiner can not be on 1st team (needs import spot), still in negotiations for loan. Odriozola already in negotiations with Inter, Mariano- in negotiations with Celta, Asensio stays, where he’s going go?, Vallejo - stays, he turned down his chance at Español.

I’m hearing they sign a CF as soon as Mariano is gone.

[halamadrid2]

Our squad for the #SuperCup! pic.twitter.com/b5fa67hsiG

— Real Madrid C.F. (@realmadriden) August 9, 2022

No Kostic for Frankfurt. A shame he can't partake in this game after helping his team to a historic EL. You got to prevent injuries i guess but still

[halamadrid2]

¡Nuestro ???????? inicial @eintracht_esp! @adidasfootball | #SuperCup pic.twitter.com/dxwquoP9Ja

— Real Madrid C.F. (@realmadrid) August 10, 2022

No surprises in the line up

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