Re: Match Day Thread 20/21

[danyjr]

Cannot disagree, but you shouldn't really be counting on an 18 year old when you've spent €400 million on attacking players .

In fact nobody should count on an 18 year old to give them results. It is too much pressure.

[Winter is Coming]

I mean we all know we've spent poorly and on players that don't really fit us, but I was implying is not this particular game but some of the other games with Fati we would've faired better as he was the only player outside of Messi trying too get involved and taking the ball towards the goal. He also has been showing he has an eye for goal too, which would've been important in this run in. I mean the fact that we need him compared to out 300m forward signing says everything about the signings.

[alexjanosik]

We all know signings have been poor. Including the latest big ticket signing of Griezman. It is what it is. Maybe Laporta is more sensible with signings.
Anyway that's the league over. Would have been nice to win but still lots of positives from the season. I think we have an excellent core of youngsters who have by and large performed exceptionally well in their first season. It's been trial by fire and a lot of them have played starter minutes as teenagers. Played the tough games, involved in a run in, won a trophy. I feel it will hold us in good stead.
We are just a couple of signings away from being a really really good team. Something I didnt expect going into the season.
Only hope now is Madrid drop points. Atletico any day over Madrid.

[BarrileteCosmico]

We couldn't even roll over properly as we should have. Smh we gave Madrid the league, disgusting...

[Myesyats]

We couldn't even roll over properly as we should have. Smh we gave Madrid the league, disgusting...

With barca these days the worst outcome expected always is the one that happens

[The Franchise]

Terrible game. Lifeless, uninspired performance and I am not sure at all that Koeman knows which direction to take this group in. He seems to be jumping from one tweak to another to find the right solution, but unfortunately he will not come up with the right one I fear.


What I would like to see -

Dembele back in the team. Various ways to do this, but for me he has to play. Without him, there isnt anyone outside of Messi who can take advantage of 1v1 situations. Or, provoke double marking to open up the possibility of space elsewhere. If the opponent plays deeper block, on the flank where he can go down the line. If the opponent plays high, more in the center where he can use his speed in behind.

Araujo, the first defender on the team sheet. I am not very fussed that Araujo is unable to find 35m line breaking passes, he is an athletic modern defender who wins duels and is dominant in both boxes in set plays. The difference he made when put in for Mingueza was huge. Carrasco was causing panic before Araujo came in.

De Jong back in the Koeman CB role if we continue with the back 3. He and Busquets had excellent synergy, with Busi dropping into to form a temporary back 4, dragging a marker with him, for De Jong to make the off ball vertical run into the space vacated. Also, when teams defend deep and offer no threat in transitions we can change the structure without the need for a sub.


What has to change -

Griezmann instead of Dembele. He can play WITH him, but I dont think he should play instead of him. Not because of quality, but because they dont offer remotely similar things and he along aside Pedri offer so little in terms of power, speed and individualism. he games turn into a giant Rondo with no way to actually create a chance if its not Messi or a very tricky 1-2 touch combination around the edge of the box. We can already say we rely too much on Messi when he is out there, but this is only exaggerated by playing him with no other forwards or offensive midfielders with 1v1 ability.

Just no more Roberto, please. He isnt a fullback and never will be. No matter what Dest produces, he is far superior.


This will not change, but the constant issues around Messi's movements are just not sustainable and only lead to disaster.

Messi wants to drift deeper into the midfield to collect the ball. Often within 10-15m of Busi. So, he vacates the right half space to involve himself and usually for this ever predictable ball to Alba. So who will take his place in those advance areas? Usually it is De Jong because he has the energy and timing. Problem with this is when play breaks down and we have to counter press. De Jong is now in advance of the ball, so has limited impact, Pedri usually out to the left or advance himself can only impact the first transition pass if in his zone. We all know Messi is not going to contribute here, he isnt going to spring into action and press the 1st and certainly not the 2nd pass. So if the opponent successfully makes those first 2 passes (which is increasingly likely due to Messi) they are breaking into open space with only Busi to by pass with acres of space on around him.

Its a cycle at this point which will not end. Messi deep, De jong high, turnover, no De Jong to help counter press. Receive transition. Messi more anxious to make something happen, drops deeper, problem gets worse if we lose balls.


Finally, is this inconsistent high pressing game. Did we not change to this 352/3421 so we can apply direct ball pressure with the wingbacks jumping forward with the knowledge they are covered by the 3rd CB?

Simply by having a 3rd defender themselves, did they stop us applying pressure to their first line. They had all the time in the world to pick passes and make players. Hermoso looked like Marquez at times. Did we not need to win this game? Why are we not going 1v1 all over the field and putting them under severe pressure? Chelsea, under Tuchel in such a short time frame are better than us in all aspects tactically and its very clear watching them against Atleti and Madrid compared to us, just how poor we are.

[danyjr]

Agreed. Koeman's use of youth has been applaudable but he has shown, like you mentioned that he hasn't come up with a tried and test solution and is still fiddling with things towards the end of the season.

Also his record in big games has been extremely poor. Barcelona only played well during the Copa final and I put that more down to Athletic playing a very negative game typical of Marcelino than Koeman's ingenuity.

[BarcaLearning]

Zidane's faith with the young players also hasnt really paid off, they are just not good enough, not to win u things. Look at freakin Atletico, they prolly gonna win the league with Suarez and their usual shitty football, beating us 2 teams with so many young players and now the back 3 formation which I never liked. Im really hoping it just a temp trend and due to our injuries also and just the lack of money to bring whoever we want in the near future means we wont be able to field out ideal team and shape.

A lot will depend on what happens in the summer, if not much happens its gonna be more of the same next season, just like how Valverde staggered on for those few years.

[Winter is Coming]

Pathetic showing.

[danyjr]

Koeman out.

I said he was a fraud at the beginning of the season, he fooled me midway through the season only to show how mediocre he is at crunch time.

Hire a world class coach for once? I see all big teams hiring big coaches, yet you haven't hired a big coach for a long long time.

Flick or Allegri. Too soon for Xavi.

[BarrileteCosmico]

I can't see Laporta going for such a pragmatic coach like Allegri, but yeah Koeman is not ending the season as strongly as he should if he wants to keep his spot

[alexjanosik]

A whimpering way to end the season after the Copa win. Should have won the league but the weak mentality of our players shone through again. The senior group is the same one which has been humiliated time after time after time.
And they did what we expected them to do. Fold like a pack of cards.
In a way better. Had we won the league, Laporta would have been tempted to keep the same pathetic bunch of overpaid losers. Now he may kick the entire bunch out.

[Myesyats]

Koeman is not tactically flexible at all, the past 3 games were very winnable but the lack of nuance in our approach is clear as day, basically the tactic is Messi pass to Alba and cross into to box usually back to Messi again. Very predictable and Simeone completely killed the game by blocking the corridor for Alba to run into. Griezmann is dead as a fish out of water. Dembele at least is somewhat unpredictable in this otherwise very predictable team. Koeman is a simple man and it shows in how his team plays.

[Harmonica]

Barca probably has the worst defense of Europe. Well that's been many years now. Even five back shipping three goals against freaking Levante. Whole defense needs to go.

[The Franchise]

This team is unwatchable. It is a complete waste of time.

Same old routine, first 5-10 minutes looking like world beaters only to miss guilt edge chances. Then, passive defending, no pressure, no intensity and no ideas what do it until Messi receives the ball. Then the last 30 minutes where we lose what limited control we have and ball possession goes to the opponent who proceeds to create chaos.

We have had teams far less talented than this, but in all my years as a fan I have yet to see a team with a worse mentality than this one. I lump them in with the last 2-3 seasons anyway, because regardless of the different coaches and different fringe players, the rotten core remains. Other than Busquets, I would enjoy it if they spared what little dignity they had left and leave.

Pique to retirement, Messi to wherever he wants, Alba to to some mid table team where he belongs, Roberto to the 4th circle of hell and 50% of the rest can join them because they were never good enough to start with.

I was already convinced at the start of the season we would win nothing serious and I am convinced now, even if he won these recent games we would absolutely bottle the final day vs Eiber.

I asked for Dembele to start with or without Griezmann, he got it and we was rewarded with a great assist and great goal.

I asked for Araujo, he got it and while in we conceded no goals and very few chances.

I asked for Roberto to not be used, we didnt get it and we got 3 goals in one half and 2 of which he was heavily at fault for. Absolutely wrecked in the 1st goal, tossed aside like a child at the back post. 2nd goal, he cant make up his mind what he wants to do, until he plays Busi a pass all he can do is 1 touch it forward to Messi, who loses the difficult ball and it ends up in the back of the net.

Koeman has lost any little faith I had in him.

I refuse to believe Araujo could not have continued. He had recovered from that early knock and he is a warrior, he will fight on. Do you seriously believe he would have taken off the likes of Alba or Messi in this situation? Araujo is again the only thing which allows the defence to reach the level of mediocre and it couldnt be more obvious at this point.

If his ankle had got so tight he really couldnt continue, why on earth would you bring this absolute scrub in Sergi Roberto? This man is living off one goal his entire career and somehow he is considered a 4th captain and one of, if not the most overpaid players in the world. Switch to a back 4 in defence, Roberto as a 3rd CB in attack. I assume to not rely on Dembele's inconsistent defensive work. But why Roberto?  Mingueza is right there, perfectly able to fill in considering he had been used ahead of Araujo prior to this.

Could bang on about individuals, but what is the point. I am sure some people still believe in these players, I am sure some people think changing coaches is the only thing we need. I hope Laporta is not one of them. He should not delude himself into thinking these guys arent finished.

[BarcaLearning]

I been too lazy to check the schedules, missed the game again didnt even know it on. Havent watched it yet but from the above no surprises, apart from the fact that perhaps once we couldnt beat Atletico we dont even have pride to finish off the season well?

Anyway, we all now the issues. Early in the season I said we wont win anything and would be happy with top 4, so in the end its not that bad

Koeman had an up turn in the past few months after the switch to 3 CBs, but clearly its been just luck? Or been figured out already or is just not that great. So hopefully we wont have to contiune with him. Otherwise as I said earlier somewhere we just gonna staggered on like Zombies without much improvements like the Valverde days I feel.

I think he deserves some credit though as he isnt terrible and has improve some aspects of our team and with some players, but overall Barca needs better.

[The Franchise]

I been too lazy to check the schedules, missed the game again didnt even know it on. Havent watched it yet but from the above no surprises, apart from the fact that perhaps once we couldnt beat Atletico we dont even have pride to finish off the season well?

Anyway, we all now the issues. Early in the season I said we wont win anything and would be happy with top 4, so in the end its not that bad

Koeman had an up turn in the past few months after the switch to 3 CBs, but clearly its been just luck? Or been figured out already or is just not that great. So hopefully we wont have to contiune with him. Otherwise as I said earlier somewhere we just gonna staggered on like Zombies without much improvements like the Valverde days I feel.

I think he deserves some credit though as he isnt terrible and has improve some aspects of our team and with some players, but overall Barca needs better.

I wouldnt say luck. What changes he made worked, but they were forced upon him and since players have returned he has made changes which have not worked.

For example, the 3 at the back didnt work because of 3 central defenders. It worked because De Jong was part of it, so it made having 3 defenders impossible to press because De Jong had such ability no defender has.

I also think it worked because the front "3" Dembele, Messi and Pedri would press the opponents CB's and holding midfielder with the wingbacks pressing the fullbacks. We dont do this any more for some reason, we allow the other team so much time with the ball then can easily get into our half. Now the 532 is at a disadvantage because we dont have 2 players covering the wings, only 1 wingback and teams can overload us. When we first changed system, we almost never (even against PSG) had to actually defend with a back 5 in our own half. Now this happens all the time.

Koeman deserves some credit your right, because he has brought in some young players and given them chances over players like Pjanic and Coutinho when he didnt have to. He also got to sign no players of his own choice and the team was broken before he even arrived. He doesnt deserve criticism for being unable to fix a broken situation.

But on his own merits, he isnt doing a great job figuring out the best combination. This late into the season, it should be much more clear who our best 11 is and how we want to play.

[BarcaLearning]

Great posts as always Dani. About the pressing opposition's defense and DM, it seems to have become the most important thing in tactics nowadays? I guess its so important as tactics continue to evolve all teams setup to optimize it and ahead of other areas.

The 3 at the back, I think I understand, Real been doing that lately but same problem cos the 3 CBs arent great on the ball, and offers no threat going forward. Dont know why Chelsea for example can make it work so well, its not like Azpi/Christensen/Rudiger are that great on the ball? Anyway, if this trends is gonna continue, do u think next season teams will develop so that they will play even better ball players in the back three instead of the traditional tall strong CBs?

Players wise I think Pedri seems exhausted, so hopefully next season he will be refreshed after the summer rest. Dest iniritally I though was a Koeman signing thinking he was Dutch So not sure whos decision it was. I wasnt happy letting Semedo go, but luckily Dest potentially is quite some way better, but he needs to improve next season.

Long summer ahead, not optimistic but just hoping we will continue the path of improving the squad and the financial situation is possible. I dont think what would happen if Messi leaves, I would be depressed for Barca, it would definitely be such a downgrade and attraction to watch the team, I know I need accept the inevitable but still dont want to

[The Franchise]

Great posts as always Dani. About the pressing opposition's defense and DM, it seems to have become the most important thing in tactics nowadays? I guess its so important as tactics continue to evolve all teams setup to optimize it and ahead of other areas.

The 3 at the back, I think I understand, Real been doing that lately but same problem cos the 3 CBs arent great on the ball, and offers no threat going forward. Dont know why Chelsea for example can make it work so well, its not like Azpi/Christensen/Rudiger are that great on the ball? Anyway, if this trends is gonna continue, do u think next season teams will develop so that they will play even better ball players in the back three instead of the traditional tall strong CBs?

Thanks. I dont think its the most important tactic to use high pressure, you can defend well without doing that also. But you have to chose, either you put pressure and try and force the opponent into errors or you wait further back, let them try and break through your 10-11 men and transition into the space they leave behind. I think all the best teams can actually do both of these things, whichever they chose from moment to moment in a game they can do it.

We dont do either well. We are too inconsistent in our efforts to put high pressure, but we dont have defensively sound principles to set back and wait. Perhaps it is just not in the DNA of our players, perhaps we dont coach it very strongly, perhaps the players dont have the discipline to accomplish it, but whatever the reason we dont do it well and I think we have to put high pressure on opponents and we are always stronger when we can do that.

I also think defending in 532 isnt ideal if you want to sit back and wait. It can work, but you are usually giving up 2v1 on the flanks. Teams who defend with 5 (Atleti for example) usually put 4 in front of the 5 to stop the flank overload because 3 cannot cover the entire width of the field.

I dont think Madrid's problem is 3 at the back, though I do think it was the wrong set up vs Chelsea.

With Chelsea, I would say that Rudiger and Thiago Silva are very good ball players. Both have range, Thiago is especially good in small spaces and Rudiger is a good ball carrier. I think those 2 are just as good on the ball as Lenglet and Pique are. Cristensen and Azpi are not terrible either. I think we need to see how they cope against a strong co-ordinated pressing scheme, neither Madrid side had one for them to be tested on and Arsenal last night didnt attempt one either. City with some back up players did cause them some trouble despite Chelsea winning the game. It remains to be seen but I think Chelsea wont look for a major change to structure or profile of players back there. Perhaps 1 left footed CB would make sense for them.

[Kebab]

What you can do with defense who look like group of girls. By far the worst defenders among good teams. All of them are weak skinny and fragile. Players like Busquets, de jong and pedri is good for tiki taka but they have no physique or speed for defending. And behind them another group of ladies lenglet pique and alba

Team needs likes of puyol and mascherano. After mascherano left defense became poor and humilations started. I envy r.madrid for having casemiro, ramos, carvahal. they will eat you alive. not like lenglet who looks like he didnt eat for the last 5 days and looks sleepy all the time

[BarcaLearning]

Lol.... Barca during Pep days did have Yaya Toure, Keita, prime Pique, Puyol and Abidal, all very strong physically, so I agree u cant be physically weak all team round, u always need a balance, unless if u have 10 XaviestaMessi level players Dest also seems limited physically, but Alves was too, but I guess he was so good he made up for it as well. Rakitic, Vidal, Paulinho also helped in that aspect when they were here. Now we have old spine of Messi, Pique, Busquets, and young Pedri and Dest/Roberto, and Griezmann and Dembele. Its no wonder we get beat physically so often?

Thinking about that and that best teams like Chelsea/Bayern/Man C u realize why we arent at the top anymore. I remember Koeman when he first came in mentioned he wants to improve our team and club in generally physically whereas in the past we focused too much on the technical. I guess since he looks like staying we'll have to see his progress with the team next season, if he can go in the right direction with the improvement as well as tactically for the team.

[Kebab]

I think they sold this game to get some money. No other explanation for those ridiculous goals

[Winter is Coming]

Another terrible performance

[BarcaLearning]

Watching Dembele play WB is quite depressing lool, thanks for Koeman it seems the 3-5-2 or whatever weird formation is goona stay, and everyone will just have to play to it I guess. But it really is funny and sad at the same time when u see Dembele not bothering to defend and oppoistion just play it behind him whenever and there is a chance created. Dont Koeman have any fking idea?

For the first time in like over a decade, I feel like if MEssi leaves and Koeman stays, I may not even bother watching our game next sesaon, not as consistently as I have been for so long, its just become too un-watchable.

Btw Moriba IIrax is the name I hope thats correct, isnt good enough unfortunately to be a Barca starter, no where near, not unless we wanna challenge for things.

[The Franchise]

Happy to say I did not waste a single minute watching this game. Without De Jong and given recent performances, I felt the chances of a good performance was next to zero. Even though I mostly watch to judge the young players, they are being hindered by this dark cloud over the team and I cant expect much in the way of performance from them.

I heard Puig played an entire half? How did he do?

[Harmonica]

Messi equalling his own Liga record of 15 dribbles, Lenglet taking another red and us losing home at against freaking Celta ending Liga run are the only things you need to know from this game. Hopefully the last Liga game I need to watch...

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