Dybala was playing too deep today. With Bonucci and Pjanic in the lineup he wouldn't need to do that as the balls would come through to him and Higuain.

The 3-5-2 is basically useless without Bonucci and a proper regista, in this case Pjanic. There was a reason Conte wanted Bonucci so bad. He's the best sweeper in the world bar none.

I was just pointing that my post wasn't an answer to gigi... what's the matter??

I agree with your points Gigi, most importantly that Asamoah doesn't offer much in the attack department. He lost his attacking skills as a b2b player. He is poor upfront.

Its been 2 games and the first one he was really good. In this setup it seems like Khedira is the most advanced midfielder so Asamoah shouldn't be pushing up as much.

That's fine with me, specially if Sandro plays who is all about joining in the midfield. Let Asa focus on midfielding.

I wanna see Sandro tried at mezzala.

I want to see Cuadrado in the midfield like Di Maria who was converted at Real Madrid but he occupies the same space as Khedira so we probably wouldn't see it- its more just an idea of mine

Putting Alex Sandro in the midfield seems like it could make sense but Asamoah has played two strong games so I wouldn't want to change him out either

I just want to see Pjanic in this damn team over Lemina, Lemina is not a regista. He lacks the tactical understanding to be good in this role

Coach Massimiliano Allegri Must Ditch the 3-5-2 Formation...

Juventus notched their second win in two matches on Saturday evening, the reigning Serie A champions making a perfect start to their title defence.

A 1-0 victory away to Lazio—particularly this early in the campaign—is an impressive result in isolation, but this performance hinted at an issue for the Bianconeri.

This was a poor overall display, one that saw the Turin giants not only struggle against the late-summer heat in Rome but also battle a distinct lack of creativity throughout the entire 90 minutes.

Before discussing the underlying problems, however, it must be noted there are some mitigating circumstances hindering coach Massimiliano Allegri. He was forced to leave Miralem Pjanic out because of a slight knock, while Claudio Marchisio remains sidelined with a torn ACL.

On top of that, during his pre-match press conference, Allegri told reporters Leonardo Bonucci would be missing "for personal reasons." That trio is comprised of arguably the best three passers in the squad. Without them, it is perhaps no surprise the Bianconeri struggled to unlock a resolute Lazio defence.

A dour opening period passed with little incident, Juve introducing Higuain after the break in search of an opener. But it would not be the Argentinian who struck, Sami Khedira instead netting for the second match in a row, as he exploited the space created by a run from the former Napoli star.

Yet by the final whistle, the team had failed to create many chances, WhoScored.com showing the visitors had just 47.2 per cent possession and managed just five shots on target.

Lazio have undoubtedly been boosted by Stefan de Vrij's return to fitness and the arrival of new signing Bastos, but Khedira was far more concerned with his own side's struggles rather than Saturday's opponent's new-look defence.


"I think, especially in the first half we had not so much movement, but after the break we had better situations and more opportunities to score," the German midfielder told Sky Sport Italia (h/t Football Italia) after the match. “In the end, I think it was a good result for us."

The second part of that assessment is certainly true, Juventus supporters happy to see the team with six points on the board after losing their first two games a year ago. Taking victories from tough encounters with Fiorentina and Lazio only adds to that joy, but Khedira's view of the opening 45 minutes presents much food for thought.

Seeing such a limited and toothless performance from Juventus adds to the belief that Allegri should dispense with the 3-5-2 formation. It has been a hallmark of the side since this era of domination began back in 2011, but as they have continued to emphasise their domestic superiority, it has become less and less effective.

Opposing teams have shown Juventus much more respect as this winning cycle has developed, sitting deep and challenging the Bianconeri to try break them down. Indeed, Lazio barely created any chances of note, but they did show strong resistance and resilience in denying Allegri's men an opening.

But the Juve boss also played into their hands with both his team selection and tactical approach. His three-man midfield of Khedira, Mario Lemina and Kwadwo Asamoah was limited by those aforementioned injury issues, but that trio was never likely to carve out a string of chances.

Lemina saw more of the ball than his midfield team-mates, but while the 22-year-old is much-improved after a year with Juventus, he remains a functional holding player rather than one comfortable seeing large amounts of possession.



Lemina v Lazio: 45/53 passes (84.9%) but all very horizontal, no penetration (via @StatsZone)


Opposition coach Simone Inzaghi was happy to let the Gabon international receive the ball, the FourFourTwo StatsZone graphic in the tweet above showing he continually passed sideways—which Lazio were content to allow—rather than forward.

That meant, much like against Fiorentina, Juventus were relying on creating chances out wide. But again, Allegri’s approach appeared to hurt his side. Alex Sandro and Dani Alves have the pace and attacking prowess to cause problems, but they were occupied by Felipe Anderson and Senad Lulic.

Inzaghi countered Juve’s 3-5-2 with a 3-4-3 formation, his wingers forcing Juve’s Brazilian duo back while his own wing-backs, Dusan Basta and Jordan Lukaku, provided security behind them.

The tactical battle also left Juve’s defensive trio of Giorgio Chiellini, Andrea Barzagli and Medhi Benatia marking only Ciro Immobile.

Removing one of those three and adding an extra winger or forward could’ve opened up this game for Juventus, and a shift from 3-5-2 is becoming increasingly necessary. Allegri could have gone away from the framework much earlier, perhaps shifting to a back four with more attacking players operating out wide.

Lazio never troubled goalkeeper Gigi Buffon, and the introduction of Marko Pjaca for his debut showed the visitors are capable of so much more when allowed to break from their normal approach.

Sent on in the 88th minute, his first touch saw him go past a defender and take a shot, his confidence and ability making a notable impact. The prospect of him featuring for extended periods—perhaps working in tandem with another winger—is one Juventus must seriously consider.

On Saturday, that role was briefly filled by Sandro, the former FC Porto man reprising a role he filled to great effect last term, often brought on to play wide on the left as Juan Cuadrado attacked from the opposite flank.

Perhaps with that in mind, it is of little surprise that David Amoyal of journalist Gianluca Di Marzio’s website reported Juve retain “optimism for finding a deal” for the Colombian, hoping to bring the Colombian back from Chelsea before the transfer window closes.

His return would give Allegri some vital tactical variety, with a 4-3-3 formation the first alternative. Another will come when Pjanic and Marchisio recover, the former able to play behind the strikers in a 4-3-1-2 system.

Whichever direction the Bianconeri opt to move, the evidence already this season suggests they should make a shift soon. If an inexperienced manager such as Inzaghi—who was in charge for just his ninth match on Saturday—can negate the 3-5-2, better coaches will begin to pick off this side rather than just limit their opportunities.

The formation still has its place and will certainly warrant use as the campaign progresses, often as a way of protecting a lead—as they did en route to the 2015 UEFA Champions League final.

Yet it has become something of a comfort blanket for the Bianconeri, a default setup they know domestic opponents cannot overcome, but one they are now guilty of hiding under.

my bad @rincon

I thought you pointed up in a sense I said something horribly wrong, but sorry about that

but anyway

@LUCA


I don't think we lack creative sources

we may not have a guy like Pirlo that everyone may rate him 10/10 about the creativity


but we have guys like DYBALA, HIGUAIN, PJANIC who are seriously creative that others may not recognize


and we also have guys like KHEDIRA, MARCHISIO, ALVES who are experienced and they know what they are doing


and we have these guys like ASAMOAH, ALEX SANDRO who I would not say are perfect on team work but their dribbling talents makes them creative, they manage to beat the opponent and create a chance somehow

but even that, when I seen Asamoah play these last games I think he has made lots of progress

yes I agree we have no creative wizard like PIRLO, but the team is so good, these guys can manage to collect points

the things I was worrynig more about was the age of the players, but that is not a serious problem if your players are technically good

I like that quote there on the article

" ALL HORIZONTAL BUT NO PENETRATION "


because you can make lots of successful passes but simply stringing the ball around which means they was not exactly as productive as when someone like DYBALA penetrates the line back and becomes an assist

passing the ball from one side back to another side back is good, because you leading out of pressure , but you are not exactly penetrating the opponent

but I believe we have lots of good players on that

hey lets not forget about this it was an AWAY game

coach didn't want to play attacking minded
he wanted to play safe,

he didn't want to send more players forwards that was good enough to steal the 3 points I think it was a good decision

We already have a "regista" which is Pjanic. Not sure where he should be played on the field, it all comes down to coach Max decision, but we can safely assume he'll be the conductor of the team nmw.

Asamoah-Lemina-Khedira was the midfield displayed yesterday. None of them is a renowned creator, therefore we should not complain since we all know it does not correspond their profiles. It was a bad combination, but at least it is now proven and probably won't happen again. Seriously, when you look at who was on the bench... we had more-or-less nothing else available to improve from the 22-18-6 trio anyway.

At the end of the day we got the 3 points in an away match with 4 subs used as starters + Alves still not on point. It was not a great show against SS Lazio but i am not worried about that.

@moggi

I agree that we don't lack creativity, but without Pjanic we do. I believe Pjanic is the key to the formation and the team itself.

Very good points about Asamoah, he looks like a different player and I'm so happy for him because of how much he struggled with injuries over the past two years. He's a fantastic player when fit.

Excellent discussion going on here guys, very impressive

yep

Pjanic sure can make a difference, he is a great player

We will be exposed yet again in Europe if we continue on this path of 3-5-2.  3-5-2 was a creation of Conte at the start of his reign when he realized the strength of his team was the back line and so therefore he created a setup that would allow BBC to be on the pitch all at the same time. I don't think he ever intended to stick with it long term, but obviously he was highly successful with it in Serie A his first year and so he continued on for 3 years.

The problem with the 3-5-2 is you need a lot of creativity and long ball play from your sweeper and your regista. With Bonucci and a proper regista like Pirlo it does work very well. And I'm sure Pjanic can take the reigns of Pirlo and Marchisio and make it work just as well. However, when it comes to Europe, specifically with the 3 power teams in Barca, Bayern and Madrid the 3-5-2 becomes exposed as those teams all play with 3 forwards, or specifically a 4-3-3. An attacking 4-3-3 effectively counters any 3-5-2 setup and also negates any type of offensive pressure from that setup.

We played a 4-3-1-2 and used Vidal as a trequartista in the CL final against Barca to try and overcome the pressure of a 4-3-3 setup. It succeeded to some extent but Vidal is not really a CAM and so he didn't provide enough offense in that setup. He played a more defensive role actually to try and negate Neymar and Messi.

As for last year we did play well against Bayern in Germany but that was because we had both Morata and Cuadrado in the game playing a wider role than normal for a 3-5-2 setup. At the end of the day the 3-5-2 does not create enough offensive chances to properly function in European competition when the teams are more highly skilled and more offensive in nature. The 3-5-2 will allow us continued success in domestic play but unfortunately will be our Achilles heel in Europe.

I am praying we are able to get Cuadrado in the next 3 days so we can play a proper 4-3-3 setup when needed. Imagine the possibilities with both Pjaca and Cuadrado playing as wingers at the same time. That would be fun to watch. Of course in that setup one of Higuain or Dybala has to sit, but if we want a proper 4-3-3 that would have to be the case. Unless we can somehow get Dybala to play out wide on the left.

In any event with Cuadrado in the lineup it would allow us greater flexibility and allow us to challenge the big boys. He is a must signing. I hope Marotta gets it done.

We really only played a different formation against Barcelona because Chiellini was unavailable

The thing with the 3-5-2 is, and I'll start off by saying I hate the formation, I always have and I always will, the players are the most comfortable playing in it, they actually prefer to play in it. On top of that, the squad is simply built for it.

We barely have three quality midfielders, starting 4 seems unimaginable. A 4-3-3 would make sense with Pjaca or Cuadrado starting but it also seems a bit hard to imagine.

Also, I'm not sure if I would agree that the 3-5-2 has been "found out" in Europe... we played a fantastic game against Bayern in the second leg but in the end it was our horrible defending of crosses that did is in and the lack of depth, or rather poor substitutions that didn't see us close that game out. In any case, there is no shame in losing to a team like Bayern away, that's a top team.

It's going to be the 3-5-2 and I believe Cuadrado/Pjaca allow us to quickly change the formation during a game but will not be the primary focus.

Calma though, we will be just fine once the Champions League starts. Allegri is a slow starter and there is no need to burn out in August

Great analysis

We have too much depth in the centreback position that it's unthinkable that we play with a 4-man backline all the time. Against Europe's finest it's a whole new story tho.

@gigi

I can't post long now, but on the fact that a 4-3-3 negates our 3-5-2 and all its pressure, just this summer Conte dismantled Spain with a 3-5-2.

This is the problem with the 3-5-2. We are very good at it because of BBC and we are "comfortable". I wish Allegri had gotten his wish and aquired that elusive trequartista he always wanted since his Milan days. Then we wouldn't even be talking about the 3-5-2. But Allegri never got his wish and he continued on the same path and here we are with the same 3-5-2 two years later and still no proper CAM.

I agree there is no shame in losing to Bayern. However in order to reach our objective of winning the CL we have to BEAT Bayern, and Barca, and Madrid, not simply compete with them.

Since 2012 when we started our Champions League run with the 3-5-2 we have a combined record against Barca, Bayern, Madrid and Atletico of:

Wins - 1
Losses - 6
Draws - 4

This is simply not good enough. Only the one win against Madrid and that's it. The 3-5-2 does not work against the big boys. The 1-6-4 record over the last 4 years is absolute proof of that.

rincon wrote:@gigi

I can't post long now, but on the fact that a 4-3-3 negates our 3-5-2 and all its pressure, just this summer Conte dismantled Spain with a 3-5-2.

Spain is an average team now. What about against Germany?  How many goals did we score there? And Spain played with a #9 who is actually a winger. We know that all too well here.

Let me post this one more time so it sinks in. Our combined record against Barca, Bayern, Madrid and Atletico over the last 4 years in CL competition using the 3-5-2 is:

Wins - 1
Losses - 6
Draws - 4

The 3-5-2 in Europe has been exposed. Sorry guys.

juve_gigi wrote:

rincon wrote:@gigi

I can't post long now, but on the fact that a 4-3-3 negates our 3-5-2 and all its pressure, just this summer Conte dismantled Spain with a 3-5-2.

Spain is an average team now. What about against Germany?  How many goals did we score there? And Spain played with a #9 who is actually a winger. We know that all too well here.

Germany didn't play a 4-3-3. Remember that Low changed his system to a 3-5-2 to match Italy.

Can't really compare Conte and Allegri in Europe

Over the last two seasons, Allegri went to a CL final and deeply regressed last season due to an unfortunate draw and a group stage lapse which saw us finish second- we cursed ourselves.

On top of that, we just have much more quality in every area of the field than in previous years, with the exception of the midfield but a fit Marchisio, Pjanic and Khedira midfield is strong and we still could be surprised with a signing.

I'm not worried. I don't like the formation for aesthetic reasons but I firmly believe we can be successful with it.

rincon wrote:

juve_gigi wrote:

rincon wrote:@gigi

I can't post long now, but on the fact that a 4-3-3 negates our 3-5-2 and all its pressure, just this summer Conte dismantled Spain with a 3-5-2.

Spain is an average team now. What about against Germany?  How many goals did we score there?  And Spain played with a #9 who is actually a winger. We know that all too well here.

Germany didn't play a 4-3-3. Remember that Low changed his system to a 3-5-2 to match Italy.

This is true. No wonder nobody scored a goal!!

Germany is a bad example as well as they don't even have a #9. Spain played a winger as a #9 and Germany at one point was using a CAM, Gotze, as their #9.

Compare that to Barca, Bayern and Madrid who have Suarez, Lewandowski and Benzema and you can see the difference.  The attacking trio of those three teams is much more powerful than the trio from Spain or Germany.

I'll post longer a bit later, good discussion

Morata played for Spain, he is more #9 than winger.

I would say Morata is more of an SS than anything. Sure he "might" be more of a #9 than an actual winger, but he is not a #9 in the purest sense. Allegri had no confidence playing him in that role.

Until we actually "win" against Barca, Bayern or Atletico in the CL using a 3-5-2 formation I will stand by what I've said. Yes we did manage to win once against Madrid in 4 attempts. That is definitely not a pattern of success by any means however.

a problem with 4 men in the back is because the 3 pockets that you can easy make a through ball , you can easy penetrate

3 men in the back keeps the pockets tight , because players are close to each other and you have the wing backs who stand alerted to block the long balls

which one is better? I believe it is always better to use less players on defense and more players in attack,

but if you are not confident enough that your defenders can handle you better keep it defensive minded until you win the ball back, and when you have the ball you may want to send the players forwards a little