nazimali12 wrote:Not surprise that ronaldo fans are alexjanosik fans. of course today's player must be a machine, its not 1970 anymore. tricks are now in second plan, you can do it when you win 5-0. being a machine is important in modern game.

I dont get one dimensional thing. which player with different types of dribblings dribbles better than messi? if different types of dribbling was so important then we would see more players in messi dribbling level in history of game. but there are just few

I would agree with passing thing, but again it looks boring because he does it 10 times every game and its not flashy.but its very accurate, today nobody can do that diagonal passes as good as him. And what is different types of passing? one-two? through ball? long ball? lob pass? messi does them all. what type pass you want from him?
i would answer it. Flashy passes, watching other direction and passing to another direction, scissor passes, acrobatic passes. he should do these things to get more hype, i agree with this compeletely

doing something like this. he doesn't have this type of creativity, this kind of instinct.

For discussions like this, Dani would have probably tackled hard. Hell, Futbol would have had a go. Come to think of it, BC, Wind, Winter, cBarca or the usual suspects haven't actually been as vocal in this thread as I would have thought.

Anyway, maybe I'm misunderstanding you Alex but you're giving the impression that you put the blame of this loss squarely on Messi?

alexjanosik wrote:Yes he is an elite player but I dont agree that he is an asset against every team.
Against PTB teams, when he plays a certain way, I tend to believe that he becomes a liability. I have already mentioned in detail my reasons for holding such a view.

I dont agree that LE should be blamed for Messi's struggle against PTB teams. If Messi suddenly started playing poorly against PTB teams under Enrique, then perhaps Enrique could be blamed. But Messi has always struggled against PTB teams, right from the days of Rijkaard to now. So, the majority of the blame has to fall on himself. And yes, for someone who is considered the GOAT by many, that is a negative.

I remember a discussion I had a long time ago with dani comparing Dinho and Messi. dani was of the opinion that Ronnie was better as he was more unpredictable and could be more relied upon to deliver the goods against great defensive teams. I was of the opinion that Messi, though predictable was better and was just as good against great defensive teams.
I have changed my opinion now. It is clearly a weakness in his game and I would rate several players ahead in this category.
I dont doubt that he has the skillset to be effective against PTB teams. I just question his tactical ability and willingness to put in the dirty work against such teams.
He is not going to break down such teams by playing the same one dimensional football(dropping into the middle, dribble, the diagonal ball to the left) and by walking around as if he owns the pitch.
Breaking down PTB teams requires supreme movement and inventiveness and he lacks in both.

Interesting. Don't you think LE should be instructing him to stop doing the same thing again & again though?

Definitely, it's a flaw that Messi too needs to work on and it's a flaw that doesn't come that much into play when Suarez is playing, so that's a good thing.

I dont blame the loss squarely on Messi. Sociedad defended valiantly. I do feel that Messi playing centrally and trying the same thing(which clearly doesnt work) was the biggest factor.

alexjanosik wrote:I dont blame the loss squarely on Messi. Sociedad defended valiantly. I do feel that Messi playing centrally and trying the same thing(which clearly doesnt work) was the biggest factor.

Exactly, its just tactical, no matter how good messi is it just clogs up the center. Play him on the wing and teams stretch themselves wide open because they also have neymar and suarez (although suspended) to deal with.

Pretty sure Nazimali is billion million with the amount of times he mentions CR. Anyone want to prove me wrong?

CM Pep wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:Yes he is an elite player but I dont agree that he is an asset against every team.
Against PTB teams, when he plays a certain way, I tend to believe that he becomes a liability. I have already mentioned in detail my reasons for holding such a view.

I dont agree that LE should be blamed for Messi's struggle against PTB teams. If Messi suddenly started playing poorly against PTB teams under Enrique, then perhaps Enrique could be blamed. But Messi has always struggled against PTB teams, right from the days of Rijkaard to now. So, the majority of the blame has to fall on himself. And yes, for someone who is considered the GOAT by many, that is a negative.

I remember a discussion I had a long time ago with dani comparing Dinho and Messi. dani was of the opinion that Ronnie was better as he was more unpredictable and could be more relied upon to deliver the goods against great defensive teams. I was of the opinion that Messi, though predictable was better and was just as good against great defensive teams.
I have changed my opinion now. It is clearly a weakness in his game and I would rate several players ahead in this category.
I dont doubt that he has the skillset to be effective against PTB teams. I just question his tactical ability and willingness to put in the dirty work against such teams.
He is not going to break down such teams by playing the same one dimensional football(dropping into the middle, dribble, the diagonal ball to the left) and by walking around as if he owns the pitch.
Breaking down PTB teams requires supreme movement and inventiveness and he lacks in both.

Interesting. Don't you think LE should be instructing him to stop doing the same thing again & again though?

Definitely, it's a flaw that Messi too needs to work on and it's a flaw that doesn't come that much into play when Suarez is playing, so that's a good thing.

I doubt Enrique has any clout over Messi. He is the most powerful man at the club, even more powerful than the president. I cant think of any other player who enjoyed this sort of power at a club. Probably Totti at Roma comes close.
Enrique tried to control Messi once and nearly lost his job.
He has learnt his lesson and now merely evolves his tactics based on Messi's movement.

FennecFox7 wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:I dont blame the loss squarely on Messi. Sociedad defended valiantly. I do feel that Messi playing centrally and trying the same thing(which clearly doesnt work) was the biggest factor.

Exactly, its just tactical, no matter how good messi is it just clogs up the center. Play him on the wing and teams stretch themselves wide open because they also have neymar and suarez (although suspended) to deal with.

Pretty sure Nazimali is billion million with the amount of times he mentions CR. Anyone want to prove me wrong?

Called him out months ago

Valkyrja wrote:



doing something like this. he doesn't have this type of creativity, this kind of instinct.

dude how can you forget messi did it in the last game against you

alexjanosik wrote:

CM Pep wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:Yes he is an elite player but I dont agree that he is an asset against every team.
Against PTB teams, when he plays a certain way, I tend to believe that he becomes a liability. I have already mentioned in detail my reasons for holding such a view.

I dont agree that LE should be blamed for Messi's struggle against PTB teams. If Messi suddenly started playing poorly against PTB teams under Enrique, then perhaps Enrique could be blamed. But Messi has always struggled against PTB teams, right from the days of Rijkaard to now. So, the majority of the blame has to fall on himself. And yes, for someone who is considered the GOAT by many, that is a negative.

I remember a discussion I had a long time ago with dani comparing Dinho and Messi. dani was of the opinion that Ronnie was better as he was more unpredictable and could be more relied upon to deliver the goods against great defensive teams. I was of the opinion that Messi, though predictable was better and was just as good against great defensive teams.
I have changed my opinion now. It is clearly a weakness in his game and I would rate several players ahead in this category.
I dont doubt that he has the skillset to be effective against PTB teams. I just question his tactical ability and willingness to put in the dirty work against such teams.
He is not going to break down such teams by playing the same one dimensional football(dropping into the middle, dribble, the diagonal ball to the left) and by walking around as if he owns the pitch.
Breaking down PTB teams requires supreme movement and inventiveness and he lacks in both.

Interesting. Don't you think LE should be instructing him to stop doing the same thing again & again though?

Definitely, it's a flaw that Messi too needs to work on and it's a flaw that doesn't come that much into play when Suarez is playing, so that's a good thing.

I doubt Enrique has any clout over Messi. He is the most powerful man at the club, even more powerful than the president. I cant think of any other player who enjoyed this sort of power at a club. Probably Totti at Roma comes close.
Enrique tried to control Messi once and nearly lost his job.
He has learnt his lesson and now merely evolves his tactics based on Messi's movement.

I really want to figure out how true this actually is. I mean it would be one hell of an achievement to win a treble with a proxy coach, because you know, we got Coachessi.

nazimali12 wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:



doing something like this. he doesn't have this type of creativity, this kind of instinct.

dude how can you forget messi did it in the last game against you

Lmao or,



Valk. Why are you even here?

alexjanosik wrote:And I knew someone would bring up the Guardiola quote.
A lazy journalist probably asked him about the amazing similarity between Messi and Cruyff(I am just speculating before someone jumps down my throat). What was Pep supposed to say? That they are nothing alike.
And even if Pep made the quote on his own, we know what a drama queen he is and how melodramatic he can be. He probably doesnt mean it.

I have actually seen tons of matches of Cruyff and Messi is nothing like Cruyff. He is the anti Cruyff.
Anyone suggesting otherwise is just being lazy. I would suggest them to actually watch matches of Cruyff.
Messi is basically Maradona with better goalscoring but without the leadership , the unpredictable genius and the 360 degree passing of Maradona( Messi's passing is more one dimensional and restricted to one side of the field).

Found the original quote if you're interested in the context:

https://i.imgur.com/NyEjrIP.jpg

The relevant parts read: "When we played badly he always told us that we ran too much, it's the ball that should do the running, not the players" ... "The legacy of Cruyff is indestructible, and there is no better legacy than Leo Messi. He is the best in the world and the one that runs the least."

That is a lazy quote. The ball should do the running. But the modern game demands movement, pressing and hard work from everybody.
Why is Atletico such a great team? Is it because they dont run at all like the Guardiola quote implies?Most definitely not. They bust their guts and attack and defend as a team.
Why are Dortmund and Pep's Bayern such good teams? Is it because they dont run like the Guardiola quote implies?

Against elite defensive teams, elite movement is required to break them down. Dont care how many Guardiola quotes you bring up. It doesnt make it true. Would Guardiola exchange Muller(a supreme exponent of movement, tactical intelligence and hardwork) for Messi in a game against a side like Atletico, bus parking Madrid, Chelsea etc.
Despite all the platitudes Guardiola might shower on Messi, I can guarantee that he will pick Muller over Messi every single time.

Coming to specific tactics. Lets take our most standard play right now. It is so one dimensional that a lot of teams have figured it out. Messi comes center, looks for the diagonal pass to the left. Our right side has practically become limp and lifeless.
Now just imagine for a second if the play was reversed. Messi stays wide. Iniesta has the ball on the left side of the field.
Messi makes the diagonal outside to inside run that Neymar makes a lot. Iniesta picks him out. All of a sudden, we are a lot more unpredictable and teams like Atletico will have to watch out more as our play is a lot more diverse. Their defense line is kept guessing.
I will give another example. What if Suarez drops and Messi makes a run for Suarez to pick out. Another unpredictable play which might prove useful.

The quote is just Pep being Pep and being melodramatic. Messi is the anti-Cruyff.