The Franchise wrote:You might be intrested in this Dante, when you get some time.

i always wanted to sit down and do a proper research at some point , though being distant from it all , i always left it for tomorrow. I will watch it soon enough , thank you.

farfan wrote:

What makes Catalonia different or worthy(not sure about the word here) of independence?

maybe the fact that it was once a sovereign nation that got forcibly annexed by spain ?

i should answer properly when i know more , but if that is the best the Catalans got , no wonder why it's so complicated. All of Europe has been annexed time and time again for centuries long , nations have lost ground and nations have gained ground , mixed cultures and shared land all over the place.

I don't know when Catalonia was an independent nation as i've never heard of this before , but if that was literaly centuries ago , i am inclined to say you can't really keep that as an argument today can you ? In any case , i will try and research about the whole case and it's history and maybe talk about it in a proper thread.

No need to beat around the bush to be honest. It's all about money as usual. Catalunya is the richest region of Spain. If they become independent they don't need to finance the rest of Spain. Same reason why Flanders wants independence from Belgium, Venetia from Italy and if Bavaria could realistically separate from Germany they'd do it in a heartbeat. Cultural differences, language, historic borders etc. - those aren't present issues for people. Catalans can freely speak their language, celebrate their own holidays, have autonomy, their own police forces etc. etc. What people care about is $$$.

Dante wrote:

The Franchise wrote:You might be intrested in this Dante, when you get some time.

i always wanted to sit down and do a proper research at some point , though being distant from it all , i always left it for tomorrow. I will watch it soon enough , thank you.

farfan wrote:

What makes Catalonia different or worthy(not sure about the word here) of independence?

maybe the fact that it was once a sovereign nation that got forcibly annexed by spain ?

i should answer properly when i know more , but if that is the best the Catalans got , no wonder why it's so complicated. All of Europe has been annexed time and time again for centuries long , nations have lost ground and nations have gained ground , mixed cultures and shared land all over the place.

I don't know when Catalonia was an independent nation as i've never heard of this before , but if that was literaly centuries ago , i am inclined to say you can't really keep that as an argument today can you ? In any case , i will try and research about the whole case and it's history and maybe talk about it in a proper thread.

why ? is there a statute of limitations on how long you're allowed to want your independence ?

fuss : and it makes perfect sense .

veneto existed as a prosperous nation for over 1000 years , they've only been part of italy since the 19th century .

i think it's within reason that they don't exactly fancy their money subsidizing some third world regions that aren't showing any signs of development.
the icing on the cake of course is the fact that the aforementioned regions are populated by different people , with different languages, history , and even genetic makeup (in the case of southern vs northern italy) .
not to mention of course that veneto's annexation happened by force and not through democratic means .

farfan wrote:
why ? is there a statute of limitations  on  how long  you're allowed to want your independence ?

fuss : and it makes perfect sense .

veneto existed as a prosperous nation for over   1000 years  , they've only been part of italy since the 19th century .

i think it's within reason  that they don't exactly fancy their money subsidizing  some third world regions that aren't showing any signs of development.
the icing on the cake of course is the fact that the aforementioned  regions are populated by different people , with different languages, history , and even genetic makeup  (in the case of southern   vs northern italy)  .
not to mention of course that veneto's annexation happened by force and not through democratic means .

well , however you put it there's no limitation or anything , of course not..if that's what they still want , who are we to say otherwise. I am not saying they don't have a right to claim so , i am saying a war that got old long ago doesn't have the same meaning it had it's first day and the circumstances can hardly remain the same. What stood important back then , maybe it doesn't mean the same to the people of today , maybe people of the past would consider today's Catalonia already independent just going by how they live their every day lives .

I see Fussbal's post and it makes great sense tbh ; there's obviously more practical values into it than just past and cultural issues , because such things can hardly affect their every day lives in 2014. If they are free to live as they want to live , that's as independent as anyone can be , on paper or not. When i said how long ago they were a sovereign nation , holds substance . Not because they lost any right to claim their independence with the passage of time , because of what it means to the actual people there , today .

I think , correct me if i am wrong , that's just the impression i get , if you described Catalonia of today to a person who lived there 2-3 centuries or whathaveyou ago , is it possible he would say Catalonia is independent after all ? Being annexed by another nation , by force or not , centuries ago means few to the people of today and most important than anything else , to their every day lives . Sure they may hold grudges , in a sense , but they care much more for their wealth , future and all , like Fussbal says.

It's safe to say this is considered by both sides , quite probably much more than anything else , rather than being annexed x centuries ago by force and how they need liberation . I would like to know how the rest regions of Spain see the Catalans. Do they think of them as Spaniards , or foreign ? I always wondered this .

Fußball wrote:No need to beat around the bush to be honest. It's all about money as usual. Catalunya is the richest region of Spain. If they become independent they don't need to finance the rest of Spain. Same reason why Flanders wants independence from Belgium, Venetia from Italy and if Bavaria could realistically separate from Germany they'd do it in a heartbeat. Cultural differences, language, historic borders etc. - those aren't present issues for people. Catalans can freely speak their language, celebrate their own holidays, have autonomy, their own police forces etc. etc. What people care about is $$$.

If you mean richest by using their debt to get richer, then yes they are the richest. Yet by capita non-debt Basque Country is the richest especially given how much they contribute overall to the Spanish economy comparatively to Catalunya.

But yes, Catalunya as an entity itself is completely self-sufficient and does not need the Spanish peninsula to generate its money.

France, logically and logistically would be ideal for Barcelona as Serie A would represent the latter problem.

Ligue 1 is a league on the way up financially to which will be further boosted by the Euro 2016 aperture.

Though all of this is highly unlikely to happen given the initial statement is a wad of hot air.

Robespierre wrote:And I know Fussball can't wait to play in Serie Zzzzzzz

Best league in the world, fss. Serie triple A+.

Suarez vs. Chiellini.

Suarez vs. Evra.

Robespierre wrote:Messi to come back in country of his grandparents

Welcome , Barca

And I know Fussball can't wait to play in Serie Zzzzzzz

or how about a gallo-romance league that includes teams from france , northern italy, and catalunya .
juventus vs lyon in the derby delle alpi
monaco vs genoa in the riviera derby

best league in the world

seria A, liga catalonia and Ligue 1 should just merge...
the possibilities are endless.

farfan wrote:

Robespierre wrote:Messi to come back in country of his grandparents

Welcome , Barca

And I know Fussball can't wait to play in Serie Zzzzzzz

or how about a gallo-romance league that includes teams from france , northern italy, and catalunya .
juventus vs lyon in the derby delle alpi
monaco vs genoa in the riviera derby

best league in the world

Not even close to the best league in the world

In any case, I doubt Italy and Spain would like to go from 3 CL spots each to a combined 3 (possibly 4, but both L1 and SA sides flop in the CL so there's no guarantee that it would surpass bundesliga).

Dem fears of the greatest league in the world.

Messi in a cold night at the Britannia

fear? nah we just wanna give arsenal a chance at 4th place and liverpool a chance in euros.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

farfan wrote:

Robespierre wrote:Messi to come back in country of his grandparents

Welcome , Barca

And I know Fussball can't wait to play in Serie Zzzzzzz

or how about a gallo-romance league that includes teams from france , northern italy, and catalunya .
juventus vs lyon in the derby delle alpi
monaco vs genoa in the riviera derby

best league in the world

Not even close to the best league in the world

In any case, I doubt Italy and Spain would like to go from 3 CL spots each to a combined 3 (possibly 4, but both L1 and SA sides flop in the CL so there's no guarantee that it would surpass bundesliga).

He said catalunya not spain and northern italy. Catalunya alone can hardly get a CL spot and so merging would not be a problem......

Donuts wrote:fear? nah we just wanna give arsenal a chance at 4th place and liverpool a chance in euros.

yeah, dont want to take away Wenger's only pride...

Surely if you were kicked out, you'd have to start at the bottom, you wouldn't be allowed into any country's top division. Otherwise they'd be backhanding their own teams for a team not from the country.

You'd be better off forming a Catalan league as a majority of your players would leave if you were dropped to say, the 9th division of English Football.

Yeah wouldn't you have to start at the absolute lowest level of the footballing pyramid in whatever association you decide to join?

Leagues would almost certainly accomodate the likes of Barcelona to allow for immediate entry or perhaps arrange a play off they were almost guaranteed to win. If the opportunity arose, they would not lose the opportunity for extra revenue generation simply to avoid upsetting clubs in lower divisions.

Also fussball, on the topic of freedom to speak their own language etc, it must be remembered that the recognition of regional languages does not equate to equality between languages. Whilst parents might be able to ensure that their children received education in the Catalan language if they stay within their autonomous region, if they move for work for instance, their children are no longer guaranteed education that reflects their cultural heritage, whilst a child seeking only Spanish education can gain access anywhere. Regional autonomy still leads to geographical inequalities between the centre and periphery, however I agree that more pragmatic economic arguments will always tend to dominate.

Back on topic though, I'd love to see Barcelona force the top teams in Italy to improve.

So they'd upset clubs in the higher divisions not to upset clubs in the lower divisions?

If I narrowly avoided relegation I would not want to go into a play off with Barcelona, that would just be insulting. Also, that would then mean relegating another team down, through each lower division as they have to bump a team down to accommodate Barca.

So you'd upset a team in every division.

There isn't a top league in Europe that wouldn't jump on the chance to include Barcelona. The benefits of increased media exposure and revenue would be to the advantage of the majority of clubs in the league. If the federation had a choice between keeping Pescara, Albinoleffe and some Serie D scrubs happy and with getting Barcelona to join Serie A instead of Ligue 1, there's only one logical choice.

I can see where you're coming from but I am not sure it'd be that easy, there would certainly be people against it.

I'm certain there would be an uproar, however financial considerations tend to dominate such proceedings, hence my confidence that Barcelona would be able to find a new home.

This being said, I very much doubt anything will change in the future in this regard.

I can't imagine they'll get kicked out of La Liga.

People constantly disagree with things FIFA/UEFA or FA of other leagues do, but guess what? They don't care as long as money is involved.

Fear of the hoofball league?

It would be no different to La Liga really. Finish top 2 every year, have a bad year and finish third. Win it our fair share.

FYI.... Ligue 1 is allowed to invite non-French teams by simple majority of the presidents (reason that Monaco is in it). LFP president here has already said that Barca and any other team that is free will be put up for vote and will be invited to join if they get the voting. 100% Barca and other Catalan teams would get invited.

Just a very easy option if it gets to that point.

They would split the league in 2 divisions and the winner of each division would play a supercup type 2 leg affair at the end of the season to choose the champion overall.

I'd love to see it tbh because all the provence teams in the south (OM, Monaco, Nice, etc.) would end up in the same division as Barca.